Mu, having the strength to do this is very telling of you as a person. You are correct that this is the best chance to save your M. I too hope your W sees the man you are and are becoming! You are someone only a fool would leave. Have a great day!
35 3 boys Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
Small steps over time mutatio. If shes opening up some with the talking just give her time and space, don't put any pressure on her, just show her its a safe to step out of her walls. She might not be ready for touch but that doesn't mean she never will. Even if she goes backwards and doesn't talk to you for a week, look at the overall trend. It might be hard to see, but patience is key.
I think that is one reasons GAL is so important and to get the focus off of them. It would be like watching grass grow, sitting there day after day focusing on it would be horrible. You want it to grow so much you cant take it. Even a bit of wind moves the glass blades and you suddenly get your hopes up, but then realize it had nothing to do with the grass. But, say you go and are having fun all week doing things you enjoy, GAL and living life up. You look at the grass a week later and suddenly a change, even if a tiny one, is more noticeable than if you were starting at the grass every hour of ever day during that week.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Hi Mutatio, I love your posts. I am glad your W is speaking to you. My H is speaking to me as well, but the anger is still so hard to overwhelming.
Reading your posts helps me with my patience and perspective. I tend to be more impulsive and emotional and you slow me down. Thank you. I wish you a very happy New Year.
dday thanks for the observation, sometimes one questions ones strategy.
Fogg, I think we are sharing the same moment. Patience, validation and quiet strength are our tools.
Fo, my landsman, your affirmation means a lot me. Smile and enjoy the day. Remaining detached helps, I don't have to attend every emotional outburst I am invited to.
Mutatio, I am still thinking about your disclosures relating to your father, nothing here about W this time. This post is all about you and the FOO issues.
The type of father you describe often emotionally damages their children when they dominate in this way. I struggled to see your father as a full blown abuser and this is because he maintained his family. None the less as an adult he was responsible for the choices he made, he did not ask for the feedback for his behaviour nor did he self correct for his own FOO. You have broken the cycle with your own son, that's amazing to have come this far. That of itself is success that has exceeded your own father. You have love and respect, something he does not have with his children.
--------------
The following is an extract:
Such fathers often disregard boundaries, manipulate their children by withholding affection (until the children “perform”), and neglect to meet the needs of their children because they are interested only in meeting their own needs. Their image and perfection is essential to them; they often demand perfection from their children. The children thus feel intense pressure to be perfect and try to ramp up their talents, looks, intellect or personality to please their father. It has a high personal cost to them if they succeed in fulfilling their father’s wishes – and it can cost them just as much if they fail. Others reach a point of rebellion instead and this I think is your pattern mutatio and I can say it is the healthiest of the possible responses. It’s a no-win situation. ------------------------
So Mutatio this is absolutely standard for this family dynamic, about 3% of families suffer from one or more dominating parent with about 8% of the 3% are borderline. I am not suggesting your dad goes that far, your observations please.
I see more in the general 3% of the class of dominator.
Was he physically abusive too?
A family ruled by this type of father doesn't function properly. And if he mother simply echoes the father as she feels uncertain of herself and doesn't directly protect her children though she may soothe them (due to his emotional abuse) and is afraid to take on her husband about his behaviour. Although she may be able to deflect for daughters.
Sons of dominating fathers describe feeling that they can never measure up. Their fathers were so competitive they even compete with their sons. They can alternate between competing or pay no attention to their sons. The sons often simply accept defeat – how can they possibly win against a grown man? Sometimes they take another tact and work hard to beat their father at his own game- just to get his attention and some semblance of fatherly pride. Yet they never feel good enough even when they do succeed; they still feel empty and second rate. Others like Mutatio just rebel and leave the family dynamic either mentally or physically (occasionally both).
Both girls and boys need to be loved by their fathers in order to feel validated as individuals.
There is also usually a “scapegoat” child. Dominating fathers are often mean and cruel to these children and let them know- on a regular basis- that they are deficient, unmotivated, always wrong and too soft. They are worthless to him and are blamed for everything that goes wrong. This dynamic seems to be in play in your household.
Do these characteristics apply Mutatio?
(From Children of the Self Absorbed: A Grownup’s Guide to Getting over Narcissistic Parents by Nina Brown)
Turns every conversation to himself
Ignores the impact of his negative comments on you
Constantly criticizes or berates you and knows what is best for you
Expects you to jump at his every need
Is overly involved with his own hobbies, interests or addictions ignoring your needs
Has high need for attention
Is closed minded about own mistakes.
Can’t handle criticism and gets angry to shut it off
Threatens to abandon you if you don’t go along with what he wants
Ignores your feelings and calls you overly sensitive or touchy if you express feelings
Tells you how you should feel or not feel
Cannot listen to you and cannot allow your opinions
Is more interested in his own concerns and interests than yours
Is unable to see things from your view other than his own
Wants to control what you do and say-tries to micromanage you
Attempts to make you feel stupid, helpless and inept when you do things on your own
Has poor insight and cannot see the impact his selfish behavior has on you
----------------
Unfortunately, his behaviors caused the relationships within a family to be toxic and can cause lifelong wounds especially between siblings.
You used your job and family to stand up to him.
Your parents chose to have you and did not provide an environment which nurtured you. Mutatio you parented yourself and used your FIL as your model. I think because FIL was easier to please you subjugated to him. It allowed you to stop the fight for a while, although it meant giving up self to appease.
You do not owe your parents anything and this truly is not your fault. It absolutely completely is influential in all the phases of your life. This is the prologue to the first part we talked of and explains, the subjugation then more rebellion and self destruction, followed by further appeasement and passive aggressive behaviour. These cycles have clear demarcation and sharp transitions. There are pivot events in each transition.
Fathers who behave in this way are bullying and the more you resisted the worse it got, but this Mutatio you were a child.
I think there is part of you that still says everything would have been ok if you had deferred to your father would have fulfilled more potential. It was his potential you were fulfilling. His hole in his life and it would not have helped you.
Know this it would have been worse, truly acquiescing would have given more serious problems and mimicking to appease would have left you with a damaged personality, might even (heaven forbid) made you like him!
You did the very best response Mutatio by rebelling as only a child knows how to. You were a child, this was a grown up who put you down.
I have done quite a lot of reading on trauma and transformation, mainly for my own recovery and it's fascinating. Childhood FOO is very damaging until the one damaged recognises it, then shift happens quickly. Adult trauma is harder to heal as there are fewer physiological routes to recovery.
There are a number of reasons for this, not least that the individual concerned is able to feel compassion for themselves as a child. A fascinating book is the body keeps the score by Bessel Van der Kolk. He is fast becoming my go to on trauma and recovery as he handles matters from a physiology point of view.
There are a number of things I have discovered about trauma, trauma in the safe place (home) has longer lasting damage. Trauma created by a supposed safe person adds to that because it is uncertain.
Trauma regresses the right amygdala in a child and the hormone system in adults. This can reverse very very easily.
So what can be done to heat this FOO so it has minimal impact on you as an adult?
The first thing to ask is when you remember your father and one of these incidents are you still as the child in the picture? Or as an observer?
What do you see of him, his face, body, is your mother there too?
Is he close or far away?
Is he in colour and moving towards or away from you?
Do you have a picture of yourself at about the age of your father's worst criticisms?
I am thinking about this and studying the physiology. There is no doubt the route to healing this type of FOO is partly physiological and about the right brain integration. You will want to think about nutrition and in particular vitamin B and long chain fatty acids. See said I was a nerd!
Of course Mutatio you can say nothis now V, or you are off beam, that's ok with me.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 12/27/1511:03 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Was he physically abusive too? No, He never touched me.
Turns every conversation to himself No
Ignores the impact of his negative comments on you Yes
Constantly criticizes or berates you and knows what is best for you Yes but not constantly
Expects you to jump at his every need No
Is overly involved with his own hobbies, interests or addictions ignoring your needs No but worked a lot
Has high need for attention No
Is closed minded about own mistakes. Yes
Can’t handle criticism and gets angry to shut it off Yes
Threatens to abandon you if you don’t go along with what he wants No
Ignores your feelings and calls you overly sensitive or touchy if you express feelings No
Tells you how you should feel or not feel No
Cannot listen to you and cannot allow your opinions No
Is more interested in his own concerns and interests than yours Yes
Is unable to see things from your view other than his own Yes
Wants to control what you do and say-tries to micromanage you Yes to control, No to micromanage
Attempts to make you feel stupid, helpless and inept when you do things on your own No
Has poor insight and cannot see the impact his selfish behavior has on you Yes
The first thing to ask is when you remember your father and one of these incidents are you still as the child in the picture? Or as an observer? Observer
What do you see of him, his face, body, is your mother there too? His whole body, mother not there, most of my memories are a brief image and hearing his words, verbally abusing me or verbally abusing mother as she ran defense for me or my sisters.
Is he close or far away? Far away
Is he in colour and moving towards or away from you? no color, staionary,
Do you have a picture of yourself at about the age of your father's worst criticisms? I was a fun loving kid who was independent, athletic and smart. I was ashamed of the way my father behaved, yelling, profanity, hitting dog, hit mother once.
I used to recall a lot more of my childhood but it's so long ago that I don't remember particular events. I remember themes of his behavior, impatience, swearing, fighting with mother, doing what he wanted, he worked-his money, blah blah blah.
A couple more questions, I looked through my notes and can't find the answers.
I read your comments about your sisters and their reactions. It sounds as if your mum tried to protect you and your sisters is that so? You say he hit her and the dog. Do you see your dad as abusive or just a dominator?
Did he drink or take drugs?
Has he ever atonediscussed?
Is your mum and dad still M and or together?
Do you still see your mum and how is the family dynamic?
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 12/28/1512:35 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Sometimes I wonder if this is as good as it gets? My wife has pulled away but will not end it. She chooses path with only the minimum of interaction between us. Food, shelter, and money, living lives in parallel but not as one. No joy, no intimacy, just existence. I could lose myself in my interests and maintain this pseudo connection or I could make the hard choice for her and free her from the chain that shackles her to me. I have 2 years to search within my heart for the answer.
