Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Triangulation (Differences between WAHs and WAWs 4

I trust DB coaches. This forum is all about boundaries, going dark, not enabling cake eating, not allowing abuse or accepting less than we should, etc. All good stuff because we typically start in a position where we are allowing ourselves to be violated with the unhealthy attitude that we'd do anything to preserve our M. Clearly that isn't appropriate. We just don't want to go to the other extreme.

In your last post you mention narcissistic behavior, alcohol issues, possible affairs, etc. I think this is not a terrible man, but a man at the lowest point of his life. Sure you can look back at the M and find patterns of unappealing behavior. That's because he is human. But I haven't heard anything that makes me think this man is in the bottom 5% that makes him sociopathic, dangerous, or cancerous. It just seems like he's a man in a crisis. Footsteps in the sand, when he's going through his weakest points you have to carry him.

Now that doesn't mean save him, persuade him, change him, wake him up, threaten him, snap him out of it, seduce him, or anything like that. It means that when he's following his emotions and rewriting history, and deciding that you make him feel bad so you are bad...you have to be the strong one that doesn't do those same things. My motto has always been to act with the character you wish he had. You have to be strong enough to transcend your emotions and act with character and commitment even when he doesn't.

So if that doesn't mean pursuing, what does that mean? Well, if DB coach told you a letter taking ownership would help then I'd suggest it. Don't worry about how he'll take it. This is more about you. I did the same. My DB coach told me it was like my new "mission statement", and that going forward all of my behavior and as much of my thinking as possible should match that mission statement. If it's just a manipulation it is pointless. It won't change him, and most importantly it won't change you. DB is all about "it takes one to tango", changing the dynamic by changing yourself. Instead of asking if this letter will change him, ask if it will change yourself...is it what YOU believe is right for YOU to do. I think if DB coach says it is, then I'd recommend it.

There's a fine line between denying your emotions and being controlled by them. Yes, you are very hurt and angry. Acknowledge that. Understand where that hurt is coming from, and your role in that hurt. But then act according to your beliefs. Feelings follow behavior and thoughts, so don't let your thoughts and behavior follow your feelings.

To much mumbo jumbo, bottom line is don't worry about H's flaws right now. Even if your H was banging more women than ron jeremy you'd still have to work on yourself...so just do that, and have faith that you'll be in a better spot no matter what he does.

Zues ,
Thanks. I am moving on to that point right now. I can't change how he feels or what he will do, so it's fruitless to think about it. I will stay polite though and focus more on actions and getting things done. And maybe post more about facts and less about mind reading and how that makes me feel. I am not pursuing any relationship talks like I had been planning.

I have some ideas of where my rage is coming from.

I was in a very abusive relationship before husband. (Was my first relationship) BF at time started as charming smooth talker and became so controlling and irrational and jealous (would accuse me of sleeping with girls and having a crush on my brother). For some crazy reason I dealt with this abuse until I found out that he was serial cheating. I don't know why I needed that to leave. This relationship really messed with me. My husband was nothing like my ex but I felt mistreated by Husbands behaviors of neglect and stonewalling. His irrationality and lack of any logic when we were debating issues reminded me of how I felt with ex. And again a part of me wants to find him cheating so I could move on. I am afraid that I am accepting abuse and mistreatment like I did the first time around and I become mad at him and myself.

I also think if I look deeply into myself, my rage comes from no longer having control of him. He used to love me and care about my feelings and he would try to compromise and work with me and now he does not. He felt too controlled by me. I think he views my relationship talks and questions about reconciliation as controlling.

I think what your saying is why DB coach wants me to keep listing things he does that is positive. (I had stopped doing this) because I am going back and forth between thinking he is a husband like you or pyrite that just couldn't handle my issues and emotionally detached or that he is like most of the WAHs on this site and I better protect myself before I get screwed out of custody.

Unless H has been diagnosed please don't self diagnose him. Stick to his behaviour instead. It is too easy to say narc, unless a professional has diagnosed stick to abusive or manipulative behaviour. It's enough and the reason why isn't important. Clearly I feel my WH is emotionally and financially abusive. I can manage my reaction to abuse and manipulation and I have no tools for me for a personality disorder. I strongly resist personality labels. I think they are unnecessary for you at this stage.

If your coach has recommended a course of action, then you should follow their guidance as far as you can. If you are unsure, then you are paying the coach give more info and request clarification. Act instead of react, if that makes sense.

Part of the reason these letters are important is because it releases you. It provides a focus and allows the bewilderment to stop. Dobson letters, if that's what your coach is recommending are part of the 12 step healing process.

The only reason I have trouble with them is in a fault state this may go against you in D. So it is a timing issue for me, rather than an if. So you may also need L input too.

Just my 2c

V

I have some ideas of where my rage is coming from.

Great, let's examine it. Again you can say not now V. Too much.

I was in a very abusive relationship before husband. (Was my first relationship) BF at time started as charming smooth talker and became so controlling and irrational and jealous (would accuse me of sleeping with girls and having a crush on my brother). For some crazy reason I dealt with this abuse until I found out that he was serial cheating.

Was this your first betrayal? Does this go back further than this R? Usually we enter into Rs like this to rework an old wound. In general they present as we have something to learn. Until we identify what that is, the pattern repeats, perhaps in another guise. Until the lesson is learned.

My observation is that may stem from poor boundaries. Why do I say this? Those with healthy boundaries just say, "this is crazy making, I really don't want it."


I don't know why I needed that to leave.

You eventually had a spell break.

This relationship really messed with me.

You needed to heal and now that healing still needs to be done.

My husband was nothing like my ex but I felt mistreated by Husbands behaviors of neglect and stonewalling. His irrationality and lack of any logic when we were debating issues reminded me of how I felt with ex.

So you repeated the same dynamic in a different way? There is healing to do? If you move on into a new R with H or someone else without healing would the same dynamic recur? Maybe in a different way?

And again a part of me wants to find him cheating so I could move on. I am afraid that I am accepting abuse and mistreatment like I did the first time around and I become mad at him and myself.

I think discovering H had cheated would make life easy for you! It would let you off the hook for doing the repair work. Suppose you could choose to heal instead. To repair yourself, to have healthy boundaries too. Would that make a difference to you? In this R or a new R with H?

I also think if I look deeply into myself, my rage comes from no longer having control of him.

Maybe. I think it's fear, fear is at the root of this. As yet I don't think I know which fear it is. At the moment I am tending to think it's fear of being abandoned. Is there any validity in thinking it's fear rather than anger? If so when did the fear start? How old does it feel?

If not Where is the rage in your body, where does the anger start? What colour is the anger?

He used to love me and care about my feelings and he would try to compromise and work with me and now he does not.

Mind reading again. They are his feelings let them alone, deal with yours.

What you have noticed is a behaviour change, are you easy to work with? Do you make compromises? Is that why he stopped?

He felt too controlled by me.

Did he say that?


I think he views my relationship talks and questions about reconciliation as controlling.

So you think you know his views? Has he told you?

I think what your saying is why DB coach wants me to keep listing things he does that is positive. (I had stopped doing this) because I am going back and forth between thinking he is a husband like you or pyrite that just couldn't handle my issues and emotionally detached

Careful, that's a lot of judgement. Did you listen to a lot of judgement as a child. We're you subject to criticism? There is something deeper in this.

or that he is like most of the WAHs on this site

Really?

and I better protect myself

it is sensible to do that anyway.


before I get screwed out of custody.

but not for this reason, refrain it more positively, as to secure my future and that of my children.



V

Vanilla,

You are right in that...

My boundaries are very poor!!! Especially when a person starts out being very nice to me or attentive torwards me. Then if they change how they treat me, or treat me disrespectfully I don't know how to confront (although with strangers I'm fine) and I end up questioning myself. For some reason I have always had trouble asking for things that I am actually entitled too. When I first started working in my field. I had a boss that was paying me a lower titles salary. I started as this boss's student and I had a lot of respect for him so I accepted it, but also I resented it, Eventually he paid me correct salary, but I never forgot this, and ended up quitting. ( I only quit because I was afraid I would get fired, but found out this would never have happened, was only something i imagined). I allowed him to take advantage of me financially. I am guessing it's because deep down I have a low sense of self worth so yes, this does seem to be a pattern.

i am angry, but I guess fearful as well. I don't know if it's abandonment, he already abandoned us and it's not the end of my world. Maybe I'm afraid of change. I really dread giving up time with children. It is a heart sickening black colored fear and rage, because it's not fair.

With some ideas, I accepted husbands way of thinking, but with certain topics I was not good at compromising with my husband and I was oblivious to his needs. By the time I figured it out and started to make changes it seemed to be too late. I feel bad about this. We were so young when we met and my views of life and the world were immature. I am now less critical and more open minded to other opinions and ideas.

And yes, you are spot on. My parents are very generous and we were not abused in any way, but we were subjected to tons of critisism and judgement. My husband actually was shocked when he would observe how negative my parents were, and how they were all doom and gloom. ( he was and still is constantly praised for everything) My mother critiques everything and everyone and she has a lot of fears.


Thank you vanilla

I am going to come back to you, I need thinking time on this.

I have a couple of questions

Is the rage in your heart area? Does it have the consistency and feeling of tar? Does it flow or is it solid? Diffuse or compact? Does it go to your throat? Are you tired or irritable? Is it constant or only at times?


The critical stance are both parents critical, or is your dad deferring to your mum? In what areas are they most critical? Were they ever withholding?

I think we have some real progress to healing and some great insights. From this great change can happen very quickly.

V

Vanilla,

Your questions are helping me to explore things I never really thought too much about or related to my current situation. I hate to even discuss them because I know there are so many people that have had things so much worse then I did and I don't want to sound whiny and unappreciative torwards my family, but now I am seeing some correlations between my family and how I am and my marriage...

I have a hard time using imagery to describe my feelings. I don't think I have ever thought of things in that way. My rage and fear is not constant, but now comes frequently. When I close my eyes and focus on it I think it does feel heavy like tar. It does not flow. It seems to affect my heart, and perhaps my diaphragm . Maybe even posterior to my sternum, but not my throat. I am irritable, but not tired. I feel like I am running on anxiety and I always wake up early and In the middle of the night.

As for my parents... My father usually defers to my mom. He is definatly more sensible, but he is not the warm affectionate type. He grew up in an abusive household and often exploded when he was under stress. He took it out on the kids, but was afraid of my mother. Now I feel bad for him and I appreciate him a lot because I feel like my mother often put him down in front of us, and made fun of him and definatly disrespected him, but as a kid I didn't like him because he yelled a lot and was often in a bad mood and was not fun. He was always responsible and was always there for us and he helped us with everything. He did apologize to us when he was wrong. I think my mother pitted us against him for some reason.

My mother was always protective of us and extremely generous and fun. She is witty and imaginative and an artist and very eccentric. I get along with her and talk and go out with Her frequently, but I do not agree with a lot of the ways she raised us. She constantly nagged and complained about everything. It always had to be her way and she relied on spite and passive aggressive behavior to get her way. (She went 2 years without talking to a very close brother over a fight involving something so minor. She is proud of this too). She has to win at all costs. Even at the expense of her kids. She would tell us things, she shouldn't have told us so that we would not like the people that she did not like. I think she just never had anything positive or nice to say period. She is very opinionated and immature and was never affectionate.

She was very withholding when she was angry at me. I remember getting into fights with her as a kid, and having to write apology letters to her so she would talk to me again. She was big on making sure there were consequences for our actions.

I also recognize something in her similar to my husband... When she went back to work, she really was unwise in how she prioritized her obligations. She would spend hours creating perfect worksheets but neglected a lot regarding me and my siblings. She gave herself tons of extra work to do because of pride and perfectionism (it didn't raise her pay scale or benefit her or anyone in anyway) and my Husband does the same (without raises or compensation)

Vanilla, thinking about these issues is making me focus a lot less on my husband. I have felt less consumed and less focused on him the past few days.

OK Julie, we are really getting somewhere. let me compose off line.

A couple more questions, ok? When you get irritable do you eat? what do you eat? Do you wake at 4 in the morning?


Your childhood issues FOO (family of origin) stuff are yours to own, they are important irrespective of others poor childhoods. Even if you have 2 ACES Like V they are important to resolve. I count at least three if not four in your childhood. Not all ACES are abusive. Would you be a sweetheart and take an ACE test with a resiliency score for me, please?


//acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/ add http to the link.

The reason I ask is because I think the questions will help you look at some things that may be an influence. IC can help and it's easier if you have some key aims to target rather than thought meandering to it. In due course change will begin to shift very very quickly. I Internet promise.

I will post later to you.

V

V I am really curious to see where you are going with this. I also think you need to be a therapist, for real. You are so good at this.

Pho

I am not a qualified counsellor, just an observer.

Julie, is ready for change for feedback, that's fantastic, it means that the feedback we as board supporters give her, will set her healing.

Julie is healing herself in this process.

V