Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Finally asking for help:

Solo

It's time for that little girl to grow up. She's old enough to have an A, she is old enough to take the consequences. Its her responsibility for herself to do that.

What happened in childhood is awful, but the worst of it is her mother holding her culpable.

And you don't have to do anything ok! You can chose to protect yourself and your WW by being strong and ceasing to enable.

Lashing out doesn't generate love, just confusion.

You told me about WW but not about you.

Where does your fear of abandonment come from?

Is it blocking you?

Is it inside , outside?

Have you had IC?

V

Vanilla

I think I must have miss-communicated. I don't have a fear of abandonment. She does. Hugely. I'm a strong man, make friends easily, and am a survivor. I am internally validating and secure in my self. I wanted validation(love, affection, kindness, appreciation, intimacy, romance) from my STBX because those are normal human needs in a married relationship. When you are being abused and mistreated constantly despite sacrificing everything to love someone, especially for many years, it erodes the connective tissue of your self worth. Outside my home, I felt incredibly appreciated and loved. The contrast is oddly intense and caused me to feel really confused in my ego. And yes, I have been seeing an incredible IC for several months who has helped me immensely. Best money I have ever spent.


So I finally took another call from STBX yesterday. I have been trying to get her to give me space, and I finally decided that I'd have it out with her about it.

It was a really great conversation. She's completely depressed and broken down because of the loss of me in her life. I was able to express the truth of the situation, explain what her actions have done to me, how they have altered our relationship forever. I got her with a lot of truth darts that really hit home, since she was finally owning her mistakes. I owned even more of mine too, so this was not me being punitive. Also, validation techniques may be the most amazing tool for communication I have ever seen. Validation is amazing. Period.

I told her that a relationship is 50/50. I refused to take more that half the blame for it's breakdown. I told her that love is a choice. That I have not always been in-love with her, or felt romantically towards her, but that that's emotional and situational. Love is a choice. Feelings change, but love endures.

I held her responsible for last year, where she just threw it all on me and would not work with me. She said last year that I would just have to figure it out myself. I finally rebuked that, and said that her husband was standing in front of her every day saying "I love you and have loved you your whole life. What can I do to make you feel it?. I will do whatever it takes for you to feel my love. Work with me to fix it." She gave me no quarter, refused to admit any wrongdoing, refused counseling, and left me to burn in my every moment sending me mixed messages, coldness and heartbreak.

She said that it would be artificial if she told me. Asked me how I'd feel if she asked me to do that. I said I would be overjoyed to hear that my mate loved me so much that they were willing to re-pattern their life to make me feel it.

I held her to the fire on the affair. What she did, it's effect on me, the agony I am feeling. Told her I don't trust her and don't know if I ever will again. Told her that she lied to me, many times, and that she was delusional if she thought that I would be fine with that.

I told her that the truth no matter what is that she didn't want to work with me to fix the marriage, that she wanted out, slept with another man before we were divorced, and that I am divorcing her and moving on with my life.

She kept saying that I was her best friend. I told her that a best friend wouldn't have done that without telling me. Without asking. Without giving me the time to grieve. Told her that my best friend in high school approached me because he wanted to ask my recently ex girlfriend out on a date, wanted to know if it was ok with me. I told him no, and he didn't. That's how a best friend treats you. And worse, this was my wife who new my heart better than anyone in the world.

I feel like a million bucks this morning. I have my kids with me, I have my dignity, my STBX is giving me space and finally has owned her contribution to our problems. She is finally getting it. She stood by her belief that I gave her permission to go after this guy, and I would not let it slide. I told her that what I said was that you have to choose your husband or him. If you want to be with him, go for it. I won't be your plan b. She made her choice. I also was assuming a common moral standard. I meant, if you want to be in a relationship/married to him, not go have sex with him a few times because it's fun. Either way, she's finally feeling the loss of me, and while I don't want to hurt her, it gives me the upper hand in moving forward into my new future.

I just reread my post, and I sound callous, but all it would take is for her to reach out her hand and I would take it. Right now, I would take it and I would love her to the stars. But she won't, and I'm not chasing her any more. That ship has sailed and I am going to be happy in my life without her.

She did say that if she felt like she could be happy with me, and if she could get over her pain that she might have felt romantically towards me. I didn't really acknowledge it, but what she was really saying was, be my friend, show me you can be happy and healthy, and maybe I'll feel different. But that's a hook I'm not biting just yet. I need to get some distance and happiness. I'm done with hope. I gave my little last ember of hope to God to look after. It's burned a hole clean through me.

Thanks all for reading, I'm finally coming out of the darkness and I feel so powerfully thankful for all of you. You have changed my life.

I think I may be up to speed, now. I'm sorry you have been in so much pain.

A recurring theme I see in a lot of threads is how many WW's want to keep her H as her BFF. When the WW says how she doesn't want to lose his friendship, many LBH'S mistake this to be a promising sign. It isn't. As long as there is another man in her head, she will not have feelings for her H.......deeper than a platonic friendship.

I remember one man who actually admitted that he would settle for just her friendship. He said they had been friends before they were lovers, and he was counting on it happening again. Well, it sounds real sweet, right? (Although MWD copied a letter from one person who made those claims.......we don't really have many details. I do not recall any stories on the boards, but I could have missed it.) Btw, I have never known or heard of a case where the woman loved a man like a brother.....and then it developed into a sexual love. From what little I know about men, they hate to be told the woman loves him like a brother.

Here's the thing that many men don't get about women. In the beginning of their R, she felt something. I would say she was attracted to him......even though they claimed to be just friends. It was her feelings of attraction that caused the friendship to move toward a romantic/sexual level, and getting M. IMHO, the WW loses those loving (romantic & sexual) feelings for her H. It is complex and I won't go into it too much here. I will just say that she has to respect you as a man, first, before she begins to see you in a different light and feel desire for you. That is how women are designed by God. Otherwise, you could be her gay friend, and that would be just fine with her.

Understand that once she ends the A and goes completely through the withdrawal, and she's ready to do whatever she needs to do to reconcile with you..........then you can start with "friendship", instead of jumping straight into "lovers". It takes time for her desire to return, and easing slowly into a sexual relationship, Is the advice I usually give.

Now after saying all of that, I will quickly add that you seem to realize her treatment of you is not what friends do to each other. For the most part, I think what you said to her was fine.



When I arrived here on the board, I was a WW. Even after I ended my A, it would anger me to read LBH'S who seemed to want to always refer to love being a choice. For me, it simply wasn't that easy for the WAW. At that point, my feelings had not been restored, and it took a long time. Actually, I had read the book on love is a decision, before I ever had an A, so it wasn't that I didn't understand the book..........it was how I was "feeling". The WW is all about feelings and she doesn't want to hear about how you do things without it being joined to the emotion. An even after she gets OM out of her head, she still holds resentment and disrespect for her H. Those two issues will kill a woman's desire. That's why it's important to have a well trained therapist to guide the couple during piecing.

The LBH, however, thinks if the shoe was on his foot instead of hers, he would be overjoyed to hear that his mate loved him so much that they were willing to re-pattern their life to make him feel it. Perhaps that is true, or perhaps that is the mindset of a LBH.........but she is not to the point where she can willingly accept those terms for herself. She is terrified of being in a MR where she feels no desire. I am not talking about those short-term periods, but a WW sees herself as feeling dead of any desire for her H from now on. You cannot convince her right now.

The bait she is using to reel you in, is throwing in a few words like "maybe" or "might" in connection of a future. We have seen it in other threads, and the LBH clings to her implications based on what he wants, instead of how she meant it. When a LBH takes a WW back under the false impressions, he can experience something like a BD over & over, b/c she has no intentions of giving him the real love he's wanting.

To tell her how you love her, IMO, is self-defeating at this point. Bluntly speaking, she doesn't want your love. Assuring her how you still love her, only works against the mindset of a WW. She only wants you for her "bestie". What a demotion.......from H to bestie"!

Sandi2

Can't thank you enough for wading through my mess. I totally get it. Having read through many of your posts I have come to understand the mentality. Not just as a man, but as a human being, I've fallen out of love with someone before in another relationship. The chasing, loving, "i'll do anything", just pushes you away more. It's your feelings that matter. Once you are checked out, you're checked out. At most you just feel a little pity for them. I guess the weight of all the years is just so heavy it clouds your understanding. It's denial. When I was younger, my W was insanely in-love with me. Like, soul-blisteringly, madly in-love with me. I wanted it back. Could not believe something that potent could be lost. Saying that love was a choice was true. Love is, but attraction is not. Big difference when it comes to romance, the eros component.

Like you always say, she was attracted to the kind of man I was. But I changed and became codependent, rolled over, and lost her respect. Attraction is were it all begins. She is sexually and physically attracted to me(in abstract), but she has marked me as weak in her heart, and can't feel anything for me other than friendship, which I could care less about at this point. We all have our own code of honor, but friends do not do what she did.

At this point, I finally can see it. I have quite the well of manliness to draw from, and have foolishly allowed it to go untapped for a long time. I gave too much of myself, and I lost her respect. Big lesson learned. But more importantly, I lost myself, my happiness, and my hope for a future. That is not the person I want to be. It's not the father I want to be for my 3 daughters. I've been so focused on her, that I didn't realize that I lost my soul in it. It is intoxicating to think that I could be myself, to open my arms and take in the world without shame, restriction, judgement, or blame. I can be myself. And so far, everyone in my life loves that guy. So I'm just gonna work on sorting out the bad bits, and embrace who I am.

This is where the detachment comes in. In all my communications with her, I speak of my feelings for her in the past tense. "I loved you". "I was in-love with you". She has picked up on that, and she should. Those things were true of the man that I was. I am not that man anymore. I am moving on with my life. At some point, I have to have enough integrity in this to stand my ground and not be affected by her. My attraction to her is an echo. It was, and is not. I can still hear it, feel it, but the attraction happened a long time ago, and it's falling away. I am taking back my life. She keeps saying that she loves me, but I call BS. That is not love. It's selfishness. My soul loves her. Powerfully. But it shouldn't.

When I was with my IC last week, as I was leaving, I told her that I was excited. Not to feel happiness, but just to not feel this way. I told her I didn't know what to do with my life now, that she was supposed to be my future. She stopped me, and said something awesome: "Every time you think that, I want you to replace what you said with 'it was supposed to be my sh*tty future". I laughed, but what a gift that was. My STBX's fog might not be lifted, but mine has.

I'm not moving forward, GAL, working on myself for her anymore. I'm doing it for me. She made her choice, and I made mine. D*mn the torpedoes, full steam ahead. My next relationship is going to be amazing beyond anything I've ever had, and next time, I'm going to keep myself. If my STBX decides that she wants back in, then she's going to have to be the one to fight for me. This sounds a little ridiculous and hyper-arrogant, and it is. I am over-compensating, but I need to in order to break free.

So Sandi2, again, thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping me. Your wisdom presses on a nerve, and words cannot express how fundamentally you have helped me through this, not just in your last post, but in sharing with so many wounded souls. Keep going, please. This is a huge labor of love, but it helps so many, even silently. I read your posts for many months before I signed up, and they added this clarity to my situation, this ringing bell that pushed me back to reality. I didn't want to listen to you, but truth shines bright, and eventually it all made sense.

Thank you for such kind words. What a turnaround you have made! You seem to be wearing your right thinking cap, now. I'm glad you are in IC, and that she gives you help in how to deal with this awful experience.

Your W will sense that you've really let go of her. It will probably challenge her, to see if she can tempt you back in emotionally. Just keep your guard up and don't be surprised to see anything.

Has your IC given you advice about how to move forward from the co-dependency? I hope you can get stronger, before WW decides to test your emotional attachment.

I hope you stay with us, b/c I think you'll need support. ((hugs))

Sorry, but I still think the fear of abandonment is your own.

V

The co-dependency is a self diagnosis, but I did share that with my IC last week, and she didn't really comment. I'm not sure what else I could do to fight that off. She thinks that limiting contact makes a ton of sense. She's kind of at this place were she just wants me to survive right now. She's really focused on my current emotional state, not really wanting to deep-dive on the more subtle stuff until I get closer to a point of healing. Makes sense. She's trying to manage me and keep me sane, just in the moment. Then there will be time to work on some deeper issues. She says she thinks that I'm mentally healthy and capable of a lot of self-healing, so we shall see. I am definitely sticking around here. My fight has just begun.




I'm interested to understand what you mean. I'm sure I have blindness in many areas, so perhaps you could give me some indication of the behaviors you see that give that impression. Don't hold back, I'm open to any and all constructive criticism. I am suffering a great loss, which I assume is fairly normal in my circumstances. I didn't want to lose the marriage, my family, my children, and everything I worked so hard to achieve.

That I stuck with is so long is definitely a weakness, but TBH, I mostly did it because a man just shouldn't leave his wife and small children because things are hard. Life is always hard. They needed me, and I was not about to let them down. I actually like to be alone. I have a lot of great people in my life, and I know that if I wanted to, I could be dating again really easily.

I don't know. Maybe it's that this relationship reaches all the way back into my childhood. The nature of it, the shape of it, in all it's suffering, my STBX's past, her pain. I didn't want the story to end this way. It was supposed to be a story of redemption, true love, and the spirit of grace. Dramatic thinking, but it's the kind of silliness that we dream of. Was not ready to let that go. Maybe I'm still not. But in the end, sticking in this place is going to get me no where. I have to rise above it. Drop the rope and walk away. I was the one to separate. I was the one who drew a line in the sand. If I was really afraid of abandonment, I feel like I wouldn't have done that. But I'm new to everything, and only now am discovering hidden bits deep down, so I am interested to get your perspective V. Thanks for taking the time and energy to care.

Just wanted to post an update. Had a pretty big breakthrough.

Spoke to my W last night while dropping off the kids. Was detached, talked logistics, said i would answer some of her questions by email. Reinforced my boundaries. I asked her if there was anything else, and she asked me to take my glasses off and look her in the eyes. I did.

She said that when she had said she wasn't sure about me, that she hadn't decided about us, and that if I could show her that she could be happy with me, there might be a chance for a romantic relationship. Then she said, "I'm not even sure if that's something you want anymore". I told her that I was going to heal from what she did, rebuild my strength and find happiness by myself, and then I would decide what I wanted.

She's pursuing me. I stuck to my guns, didn't offer any hope or loving validation, was manly and didn't take the bait.

Honestly feel great right now. Finally get it all. At least in the broad strokes. I'm not going to show her that I can make her happy. I'm going to be the best man that I can, for me, healing from all the broken behaviors, and finding a way to love my life and myself. To be kind to myself and actually take to the time to build myself up, grow as a man and father, and take back my life.

If she is attracted to those changes and falls for me, then maybe I'll consider allowing her to walk down the long road to R with me. Maybe not. But I'm not rushing into anything, nor taking that broken M back. She will have to break down and work with me. I don't have to show her anything. She will see my actions, because they come from truth, and are not for her, but me.

Pretty different person saying these things. Finally getting my mojo back. I can't express how thankful I am for everyone here helping me to get to this point. I love you guys. Seriously. You all rock.

Solo

Absolutely I will, if you want and need me too.

But I think just calling it and identifying caused a big shift.

You decided crumbs weren't enough. You chose to detach from the outcome. Time to validate W and decide if the door should be open, if it is then be warm and firm.

This is that which RD would call a 'star' in the night sky. The beginnings, it's a long road yet.

V

IMO, the WW is wanting a man to "make" her happy. Maybe it's part of the fairy tale little girls use to hear.

Here's the thing, the burden to make her happy should not be placed on you. That's not your job. It's up to her to be happy.

As a WW, she's really not in the position to be telling you that if you can prove that you can make her happy, then........

You see, to her it's all about her feelings. You do not want to become a puppet dancing around trying to make her happy.



Good!



Wow! Keep that determination and confidence going.