There is something profound if I can understand the hurt behind this question and know how to answer it. I keep hearing,
"Why didn't you listen to ME when *I* tried to tell you what I needed? Why only when you read something or heard it from someone else did you decide to change?", and "I am your wife, why didn't you hear what I was saying. I was telling you what I needed, you didn't have to find it in a book?"
I get variations of this question and some anger implying that I purposely was not giving her what she wanted. It is frustrating because it is all or nothing thinking just like "why are you changing now, why didn't you change when I asked you to?". The fact that you were were trying to understand and working on it is not good enough. It would seem that finally understanding something important, like how to validate someone, would be welcome with open arms, "finally!". Instead it is judged as being too little too late or not good enough because you learned it from a book instead of from your spouse. I have tried saying "I was looking at every source I could find to understand what it was you needed until I learned the skills it took to adjust". But there must be an answer she is still looking to hear from me. I get that she must feel discounted somehow, like I wasn't listening or that she is direspected because I valued an outside opinion instead of hers. But I didn't understand her. I needed an interpreter or to hear it explained a different way.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thank you for the help. I have read DB an DR and been at this for 7 months now. Going to sound like a junkie, but paid $400 for another course and bought some materials from someone else and listen to his awesome free podcasts. What I am lacking is more of the exact steps to follow kind of thing, hence asking about how to I answer that question because it comes up more than just about any other and I am not certain of the emotions behind it (though it seems to be "why didn't you care enough to listen when I was telling you the same thing") and what to say so she feels validated. Any answer I have would sound defending, "I was trying and kept asking you and reading until the light bulb went off".
Last edited by Cadet; 08/07/1504:10 PM. Reason: per forum agreement no menetion of other authors
H:54 W:46 D:11 D:21 M:12 BD:1/15 In-house Separation 2/15 DB started 7/15, W sees consistency 9/15 Dropping the rope and having her leave 2/16, moves 5/16 Reconciliation 1/17 Obviously still struggling
There is something profound if I can understand the hurt behind this question and know how to answer it.
Seek to understand and validate her feelings, NOT to answer. She doesn't want you to answer. She wants you to understand her hurt. You mentioned you read DB, did you read the info on validating? That's what you need to learn to do and become a master at.
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"Why didn't you listen to ME when *I* tried to tell you what I needed? Why only when you read something or heard it from someone else did you decide to change?", and "I am your wife, why didn't you hear what I was saying. I was telling you what I needed, you didn't have to find it in a book?"
Your response should be something that invites her to share her feelings, like "I didn't listen to you and it clearly hurt you, you sound angry and frustrated, is that how it makes you feel?"
She might respond with something like "I'm not angry, but I am very hurt and frustrated that you never listened to me."
So of course you WANT to say "oh but I've changed! I'll never do it again! I'm listening to you now!" NOOOOOO that is the WRONG response. Do not explain/ reason/ justify/ agree/ disagree. Always seek to validate- "you are hurt and frustrated, I can certainly see why you feel that way, you've gone through a lot and I apologize."
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I get variations of this question and some anger implying that I purposely was not giving her what she wanted. It is frustrating because it is all or nothing thinking just like "why are you changing now, why didn't you change when I asked you to?".
Have you read Sandi's rules? WAS's always speak in absolutes. But here's the thing- if you were a perfect husband you wouldn't be here (none of us would if we were perfect). So seek to understand what you did wrong and change those things about yourself.
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Instead it is judged as being too little too late or not good enough because you learned it from a book instead of from your spouse.
Did you read the part of DR that says not to let your spouse know you're reading it? Above is the reason why. It looks to your spouse like you're using "tricks" to try and get her back.
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But there must be an answer she is still looking to hear from me.
RIGHT NOW she doesn't want anything from you. Read Sandi's thread here for perspective from a former WAW of what a WAW is thinking and going through:
You're in a marathon. I remember saying the exact same things as you when my sitch started, I wanted to know what to say and do to "fix" things. I wanted a step-by-step process to follow. There is none. All you can do is work on yourself and give your W time and space and hope that eventually she starts falling for the new, changed you.
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I have read DB an DR and been at this for 7 months now.
Please give us some background. When was BD? How did it come about? You living together or separate? What transpired before, during and after BD?
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Going to sound like a junkie, but paid $400 for another course and bought some materials from someone else and listen to his awesome free podcasts.
Be careful not to mix approaches. Pick one and stick with it, otherwise it'll just lead to confusion and an inconsistent approach.
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What I am lacking is more of the exact steps to follow kind of thing
LOL! Ah, wouldn't we all like that. DB is as close as you'll get to "steps". Make changes to yourself while giving your W time and space. REMOVE ALL PRESSURE. That means no temperature checks, no dates, no constant phone calls and texts throughout the day, no following her around the house, no falling all over yourself trying to cook and clean, etc. etc. etc. Give her time to see your changes and believe them. At first she'll think you're just trying every trick you can to get her back after which things will go right back to what they were. As hard as this may be to accept, your M is over. There's no going back. Your goal is to become the "spouse only a fool would leave" and when if and when your W is ready, build a NEW relationship with her.
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Any answer I have would sound defending, "I was trying and kept asking you and reading until the light bulb went off".
Exactly, that's because you're trying to reason/ negotiate/ explain instead of validate. Brush up on that validation and quit trying to explain yourself. Her feelings are TRUE and REAL to her, you can't talk her out of her feelings. Seek to UNDERSTAND her feelings. Validate them. It won't change her mind, but it's the first step that could lead to her eventually changing her mind.
EDIT TO ADD: Wonka has a great sticky that gives plenty of validation examples here:
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Ok, Had been having issues on and off for a year or so. Had a meeting to go over our goals and what we wanted from each other to get back on track. Unknown to me at the time was that someone at work was working on her. She may have been exploring her options then. We went on a long trip a month later and had two arguments over the same old stuff. Got back and her behavior was noticiably different. Completely pulled away from me and I saw her hiding her phone, etc. I asked her about it and she denied it. Within a couple of weeks through greater effort, I found undeniable evidence of an EA. I confronted her and told her it had to stop. This was 7 months ago. Within 2 weeks of the BD, when the EA was in full bloom, she asked for a separation. I agreed to an in house separation and that is where we stand now.
I made all the usual mistakes the first couple of months and pushed her further away, spying, confronting, arguing. I could see her wavering in the beginning, but blew a couple of good chances because I couldn't stop myself from responding to the crazy logic, "you did this, not him", "I have nothing to be guilty about", "We were probably never really in love and shouldn't have gotten married 10 years ago". etc.
Since then, I have learned and been trying to validate, listen, not call, not text, etc. Occasionally we will have a really good talk and there is a backslide the next day as if she caught herself being vulnerable. However, the overall process is very slowly getting better. I am not sure just how far to detach. I know she is not seeing him, but I suspect she calls or texts him on rare occasions. They no longer work at the same company. She talks like she knows the grass isn't necessarily greener and it might not be love, but she admitted she was drawn to the possibility, to "find out for myself".
When she does bring up our M, we talk and she often repeats the same blame shifting and reinventing the history of the relationship, but it is like she is working it out in her head. She certainly has some legitimate complaints and I know she would need to see my change or we would just be back in the same boat. I believe one person can institute the first changes until the other partner is ready. She says she is getting input from others to work on us and she prays about it. But then she gets frustrated and says she only has one shot at being happy and how will she know it won't just be settling? "I need to live my life and not pay attention to what society thinks"
We went from her not talking to me at all and not being able to look at me to us being friendly now and interacting a little more. I try to stay detached, but occasionally we will do something with our child or will sit together to eat and start a conversation. I have gotten better and better at logging what works and doesn't work and following the things that work. The hardest part is just validating when she goes to full on negative mode, "you never listened", "we have nothing in common", "I don't think I could fall in love with you again".
In our positive moments she will refer to, "I want to hear you say that again, I think you had a breakthrough" and "That was the kindest thing you have said to me. What I wouldn't have given to have heard that from you 2 years ago".
Re-reading your tips and going back to DR to internalize the most important parts.
H:54 W:46 D:11 D:21 M:12 BD:1/15 In-house Separation 2/15 DB started 7/15, W sees consistency 9/15 Dropping the rope and having her leave 2/16, moves 5/16 Reconciliation 1/17 Obviously still struggling
I have no help to give other than backup what everyone else is saying. It sounds to me like you are on the right track. I will say that my wife has said the exact same words to me.
"you never listened", "we have nothing in common", "I don't think I could fall in love with you again"
My wife has literally said those things to me verbatim. And man do they hurt. They crush your hope. I think that in some ways, as men, we always listen to the content of what people are saying, rather than the reason they are saying it. Those words are coming from the echos of her pain, deep down pain. She's finally got a shot at freedom from that pain, and does not want to let it go. You are running into her defense mechanisms, her flak. Those things may be true, but I don't believe it. I think that those are words she says to herself internally(and to you) to re-anger herself and keep her from believing that things could get better.
My heart goes out to you man, but it sounds like there is some real positive movement there. Focus on your actions. Lovingly detach, and keep validating. Don't push. You got this!
M 16y , T 18y , 3 Kids 7/14 ILYBINILWY 8/14 Takes off rings 5/15 OM, S PA 8/15 10/15 A new hope. Rumbles of Reconciliation. 11/15 I can have what I want. What do I want?
I could see her wavering in the beginning, but blew a couple of good chances because I couldn't stop myself from responding to the crazy logic, "you did this, not him", "I have nothing to be guilty about", "We were probably never really in love and shouldn't have gotten married 10 years ago". etc.
I memorized many of Sandi's rules and they really helped me through times like that. Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. The stuff that is coming out of her mouth are projectiles out of the storm that's swirling inside her head, you've just got to listen and validate and try not to take it personally.
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Since then, I have learned and been trying to validate, listen, not call, not text, etc. Occasionally we will have a really good talk and there is a backslide the next day as if she caught herself being vulnerable.
I'm not sure if 25 still posts here, but she used to say "applaud the 1%" all the time, and it is fantastic advice. WAS's (and especially MLCers) will rant, rave, scream, argue, cry 99% of the time. Then there will be glimmers of goodness. So what do you do? Applaud the 1%! Thank them, praise them for that 1%! Because if you do, then they'll make it 2%. And 3, and so on. You are absolutely right, she IS catching herself being vulnerable and she's re-tracing her steps. So it's your job to make her feel comfortable either way, so you act like it's no big deal when she backslides. Don't ask her why, don't point out that she was doing so well, etc. Just accept it for what it is- temporary.
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However, the overall process is very slowly getting better.
GOOD! This is the best you can hope for- baby steps. She will not change her mind overnight, it's a long, slow process.
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I am not sure just how far to detach. I know she is not seeing him, but I suspect she calls or texts him on rare occasions.
Don't sweat whether there's an OM or not. There's nothing you can do about it. Is she texting him? Has she seen him? Are they having sex? You'll only drive yourself crazy and drive her farther away. OM is a symptom, not the problem. Focus on what you CAN do something about- YOU.
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But then she gets frustrated and says she only has one shot at being happy and how will she know it won't just be settling?
That's sooooo typical. Love is what we put into it. She'll be as happy as she invests herself to be. But like most WAS's, she thinks love is a like a rock sitting on the ground, she just needs to look for it and find it and pick it up and she'll have it. Often it takes an EA or PA for them to realize their demons are following them around from one relationship to the next, and it's not until then that they might look inward and start addressing the real issues.
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We went from her not talking to me at all and not being able to look at me to us being friendly now and interacting a little more.
That is really good progress!
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I try to stay detached, but occasionally we will do something with our child or will sit together to eat and start a conversation.
Nothing wrong with that at all. "Detaching" doesn't mean "ignoring".
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The hardest part is just validating when she goes to full on negative mode, "you never listened", "we have nothing in common", "I don't think I could fall in love with you again".
You are right, it is damned hard. We men are hardwired to explain/ reason/ justify/ defend while women are natural validators. But the more you do it the easier it gets.
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In our positive moments she will refer to, "I want to hear you say that again, I think you had a breakthrough" and "That was the kindest thing you have said to me. What I wouldn't have given to have heard that from you 2 years ago".
Then you are clearly on the right path. You just have to stick with it until she believes your changes are real. She thinks they're just tricks right now. Give it time, you're doing well
