Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)

Sandi,

I am going to say (usual song) there is a difference between the WW and the WAW. I really believe core DB is best with the latter, the WAW has needs not satisfied in the R and the strategy is going to be very different than that with a WW.

V

I still have my daily votive so peace to you, your H and D.

Hey Sandi, how inspirational to all of us LBS'. Solid gold.

Your friend - Bob

From my male viewpoint...

I think the 37 rules are hard to follow because in one instant the LBS is being asked to go dark or cut off all contact with someone they've been talking to as their most trusted friend for often many years.

that habit of seeing the other person everyday, and talking to them or touching them or anything with them suddenly vanishes. it feels like you're teetering on a cliff and you just start to swing your arms around wildly trying to regain your balance. in that state you're terrified and grabbing onto whatever will give you balance. As mentioned this is often apologizing or reasoning or just being incredulous. i spent two weeks sending my W articles about the effect of divorce on kids, but she countered with an equal number of studies that showed that it was fine on kids. she refuses to believe that my concern if for my girls, while i feel it is at least 51% of my reasoning.

Of course, I also desperately want her. But, as talked about, started leaving years ago. despite the fact that the last year saw many of the things she wanted to have happen happen (increased communication, more support for her work, less fighting) she still focused only on the arguments we did have, not the newly fast tracked resolutions. I got down at some points as well, and those ups and downs were too much for her.

So when i finally snapped at her and she said she "felt nothing" when i did that she somehow knew it was over for her. a woman who said that she took vows before God, etc. now said "i want to let the world in, focus on my career, have a chance to be independent," etc.

and because i was thinking things were getting better and that every setback was going to be followed by a bigger step forward, when she said that to me it was devastating. i only cried and blubbered 2 or 3 times in front of her and even then it was mostly exposition about what i could have done and such.

i stopped pursuing and it feels nightmarish. she's just disappeared and in my mind she's partying or going out, working late with her younger single co-workers, etc. when you're prone to catastrophic thoughts it's doubly hard. i have seen her a few times and been really upbeat and more confident, but again, this makes her say things like "it looks like you're happier now than you've ever been." making me worried that she is feeling validated in her statement that she wasn't a good match for me and that she was setting me free to find someone that can make me happy.

the problem is that you have to adopt the rules before you detach. so you can't see if they're working and you can't talk to her about what she is feeling. so you're still attached to this person and you've cut them off, but you can't see them to see if they even notice. it's not until you begin to internalize the idea of changing yourself that you understand the point of detaching is not to get her back, but to fix yourself. so it's reversed from what she experienced where she detached years before the BD, and then just had to walk out the door.

thus its just panic. its such a sudden change that it cracks you up. like glass going from the freezer to a broiling oven. one moment you're married and the next you're not.

i don't know if i really answered anything.

sorry if this is off topic.

Is there more info on the board for the LBH of a WAW?

I've read the 4 thread epic of WAW vs WW, and it has a lot of good stuff. Is there anything like this thread for the WAW?

Ideas, stories, tips, advice?

I believe I have a WAW more than a WW, so I want to make sure I don't do something too drastic in my situation and use a WW tactic on a WAW, thereby alienating her even more.

The DR book has a little on it, but DB doesn't have even an index listing for WAW.

and yes I'm following the 37 rules. There just seems to be some stuff where i need to be her friend if she's a WAW, but go dark if she's a WW.

She just called now and is calm and deliberate. talking about separating everything and it's just agonizing to try to be positive and chipper through the whole thing.

i need to know how to talk to her.

Thanks for your reply Sandi. Before I share my thoughts let me just remind the board this isn't the end of my journey, this is how I'm feeling today. I feel differently today than I did a year ago, and I hope to feel differently in another year. But to get there I have to feel what I'm feeling.

Frankly- I'm not sure I'm all about R after waywardness. It's so pop culture these days, we all have this narrative, 'oh, after the affair it was tough, but I learned more about what my partner was missing, and we got more honest, and became better partners than ever!' OK. That's great. If an A happens, maybe you have to turn lemons into lemonade.

But there is a spectrum, and an A is only one point, in one area. Towards the beginning of the spectrum you have poor behavior. Maybe you have flirting. Then an EA. Then a PA. Then serial As. Then at some point you have BD.

To me BD was a bigger betrayal than anything. And when you put them all together...EAs, PAs, BD, different houses, and finally D...to me I'm not sure there's coming back from that. At some point, what why would I want to R? There is no more damage that can be done, there is nothing left that can be saved. Why would I want to be with a person that would be willing to do this when I could be on my own, and have a chance of meeting someone that values commitment and M to a level I do?

Part of this is that I've broken free of my codependency, and I've already incurred all the losses that come from D. There's nothing left to lose. For the first 6 months I clung to the hope of R because I didn't want to go through this amount of pain or disillusionment, I didn't want to see my family broken up, and so on. At this point that is all gone, and now that I'm doing ok on my own and have lost everything that could be lost...I just don't see the attraction of going back to the person that chose this.

Because it's BS. People just shouldn't do this. Listen, 90% of the people on this forum have a WAS in a PA. We start acting like it's a normal part of a M, to bottom out, have a BD/PA, whatev. But it's really not.

Sandi, I quoted a paragraph that awakes great anger in me. I have plenty of my own issues to work on, but I would NEVER have done this to someone. My W wasn't attractive to me. She didn't do things that captured my affection. She dressed in sweatpants, gained a bunch of weight, focused on the kids 100%, neglected me including no sex for YEARS at a time, bad mouthed me to her friends and family...but I wouldn't walk away. I just figured we had to work through it and things would work out.

So the concept of trying to win back the respect of someone that walked out on a M, dropped a bomb, had an affair or three...to me, I'm not sure I'm interested. It's not OK, and I don't think I have anything to talk about with someone that thinks it is, much less to share a life. And I strongly resent the idea of trying to be a certain way to appear attractive to them. If I have to live up to their standards of attraction or they'll do this to me...GOOD RIDDANCE!

***Disclaimer- I think you agree, and that what you're saying is that you'd need proof they had DRAMATICALLY changed into a different person that regretted those decisions, a person that had been so impacted and had grown so far they might as well be a stranger to your old partner, but a stranger with kids and history you share. And that you are CAUTIONING LBH's for accepting any less.

***Disclaimer II- I still have some anger towards people that do this, and I admit that there is a part of me that wouldn't want to patch things up with WW because I want to see her punished by not getting her M with me back. This is stupid, but I'm just being honest. I don't know if this is 2% or 20% of my anger, but I am calling it out so I can get it out of my system and pray for God to help me let it go.

Thanks Sandi for all you do. Great thread.

((Zues)) I am hearing the pain in your words. I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better today.

After sharing your feelings, I will honestly say that I don't believe you should seek reconciliation at this time. Sometimes just too much damage has occurred. I believe people are often pushed to do what someone dictates as "the right thing". Well, it sounds as if you were doing the right thing and still received terrible treatment. Perhaps you struggle even now about doing what is perceived to be right. It is for nobody to decide what Zues should except you. I blame nobody for not wanting to step back into a relationship with a person who did what your W has done to you.



Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. However, how dramatically they change can certainly vary from person to person. Your W would be one who would need a total make over inside and out, and it would need to be authentic. I have not read many accounts where that actually occurs. Doesn't mean it's impossible. I think there has to be a driving force behind anyone's dramatic change. We tell LBH'S to change for themselves, not to just get her back. Same thing applies to the WW. Anyone can put on a good front for a while. Eventually the real person will show.

I think it would probably take a few years for her to change as much as she would need, in order to be the W you deserve to have. I'm no professional, so it's JMO. I do believe with complete repentance comes healing and opportunity to live a better life. That is her choice, and it's your choice if she lives with you, or not.

Oh btw, whenever I say the woman has to respect a man in order to be in love with him, it doesn't mean he is a bum or necessarily did something wrong in the M. Some women lose respect for themselves and everyone. In such a case, you would have to ask yourself if she was worth it.

I like this post because these thoughts have run through my head in the past. I am going to explain why I will not reconcile with my STBXW. Lies, affairs, EA and betrayal break the trust in the worst way. I could never trust STBXW again. I stayed in our marriage all this time before even though I suspected she was telling little lies. Mostly about money and things. Now she has gone to a place of no return. Sandi said it best in her last comment. To me STBXW is NOT worth it. I am by far not a perfect person or husband. I had my faults in our marriage. But I deserve better.

Trust and deciding if I ever wanted to take a chance on experiencing that kind of hurt again was a big one for me. STBXW now has a track record of lies, cheating, stealing and betrayal. She may change some or all of those things. And if she does, I will be happy for her and happy for our kids. But I still won't take her back. A wonderful older lady here in town was talking to me about her marriage and when her ex left her for another woman. She is so wonderful with all our kids. Her oldest son asked her if she would ever think about getting back together with their father. She said that she did not think that would ever happen. She explained that the first time he was late or gone where she could not get a hold of him, all the fears would come back. This is my thinking also. What is she doing while I am at work? Who is she texting? Who is she talking to? Who is she seeing when she goes to town? Once that trust is broken, it is pretty hard to get it back. Especially in alot of our situations! Not only was there the pain of them leaving, but the pain of them cheating and than for how long? In my situation, I have found out this has been going on for a long time. In my house! Under my roof! With my children at home!(EA) Texting another man while sitting next to me in the truck or at home! If I would have known about it back than I would have kicked her out so fast she would not have known what hit her!! Intel!! I am a believer in it now!!

My opinion! Acknowledge your faults in your marriage, work to correct them and leave the cheaters to be with their new dishonest partner! Let them deal with them!! Someone that is worthy of you will come along one day!!

So well stated, Joe. Thank you for sharing.

Sandi, I so appreciate all of your posts. Thanks for being a valuable and unique resouce to this community.

That being said, it would be so nice to have a recovered WH join the board and give the LBWs on here the same kind of feedback and accounts of what they went through. While much might be the same for all LBS, I imagine there might be some differences by gender of WS.

Michele has an article on her website about the WAW Syndrome. Actually, I don't know that she has ever used the term wayward wife. Over several years of reading and observation, (plus my personal experience and some others very close to me) I felt that maybe there should be a distinction in those wives who were wayward and those who left for other reasons. The WW has a rebellious attitude, and is much more deceptive, selfish, cold, and likely to be in an affair or living like a girl gone wild lifestyle. IMO, some walk away wives may have a legitimate reason for leaving. That is strictly my personal views. I referred to myself as a WAW for a long time, and I had, indeed, walked away in my heart. The truth was I had turned wayward. The Bible gives a good definition of a wayward wife.

I would advise you to follow the 37 rules as your guide for a stitch with a WAW.

I hope I won't sound too harsh or sound as if I am picking on you. As a woman, and one who has not walked in the LBS's shoes, I can point to several things in your thread and wonder if that is why your W left. I think it is so tragic to wait till we lose that which is most treasured, before we wake up. If you are awake now, the best thing you can do for yourself and your family is to get therapy and/or attend anger management. You don't seem to understand how threatened a woman feels when her H is mad and yelling at her. You wouldn't even listen if she tried to calm you down........and it sounded, to me, as though you were trying to excuse it by saying you were mad at someone else. Seriously, cut it out.....and get help. Do you yell at your little girls? No? You will, if you don't take action to change things. Not trying to sound ugly to you b/c you have been a big man by coming here. I want to ask one more question about your anger problem. Has it affected any of your jobs? (I think you said you haven't had a paying job in a while, so just wondered.)

So glad to hear you are taking meds for the depression. If this has been an ongoing problem, you may need to consider talking to the doctor about a long term plan of medication and/or therapy. I have had depression ever since I was a young teen. Staying involved in healthy and inspirational activities helps. I know it is not easy on our families while living with a depressed spouse. Seeing us put forth effort to keep it in check encourages them not to throw up their hands in disgust.

Just a tip, you may want to find more statements of validation or prepared answers to give your wife. Nothing wrong with what you've said, just don't want to repeat the same thing. That will sound very fake to her ears. She knows you, and she can tell if it sounds like something out of a book. Look for Wonka's validation cheat sheet, close to the top of the forum.

A poster by the name of 25yrsmlc gives excellent advice to LBS's. You may get encouragent from reading her posts to others.

The majority of newcomers seem to have a WS. Most men just don't believe their W would ever do such a thing. If you had known me, you would have said it about me, too. So, if you discover she does have another man (at least in her head), then you may want to consider fine turning some things. Except for what some see as being tougher love, the concepts are about the same. You can also read Divorce Remedy to see what to do with a WAW. In the meantime, read other threads around the newcomers forum.