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I wouldn't send that. I've spent literally a full hour trying to think how to explain why, and how I can explain better. But I'm not sure I can.

There's something you're missing here. If you saw what you were missing your tone would be entirely different. That's it. Tone. When I read your message it has you talking about your frustrations, your complaints of his, borderline diagnosing him, and basically saying "I don't understand why you're acting like a butt-head, can you explain that to me because I need you to get this fixed because I'm not happy with your behavior". But in your H's mind (or at least this is how I felt):

Picture buying a dog for the family. Now- lock the dog in a kennel all day. When it gets to leave the kennel it gets excited to see people and starts getting too worked up, so you beat the dog and scream at it. You feed it some days, but not daily, and it loses weight, and more to the point spends it's days in hunger pain, lonely, isolated, locked up, and when it barks out a cry for help it get's a muzzle put on it to shut it up.

THAT is my last try to explain how your H probably feels. Now you're pointing out that he's snarling, that he's not a very good lap dog. But here's the difference...he isn't a dog. He wasn't locked in that kennel. He stayed their out of love, and out of hope. He stayed there because he loved you. He stayed their because he hoped you'd let him out of the kennel, let him have run of the house, play with the family, etc. He wanted it so much that he spent years of his life locked up for you, hoping if you loved him you'd understand how that felt and would give him food and water and attention.

Now he's grieving this won't be the case. He's off running the open fields, hunting and eating rabbits, jumping in streams and having a grand old time. Yes, he'd prefer to be domesticated and have a loving owner take care of him, but when he looks back at the kennel he used to be locked up in he can't come back.

Unless...he still hopes that someday you'll see this, that you'll tell him to come back and everything can be different, you'll feed him and water him, he can have the life he wants there with you. But what he hears is "bad dog, you keep running away, back in your kennel, what's wrong with you?" But he's learned he's not a bad dog. He can't live like that, and he's not going to spend more years in a kennel hoping you figure that out.

I think the reason I am so passionate on this is because this is why my M is over. Even while my M is dead, I still have flashbacks to being that misunderstood and neglected, and when I read your sitch it all comes back. So part of me is trying to fulfill me many year long quest to get through on this topic to someone.

I've already given my verbiage for what I'd send. Maybe it looks the same, but the tone is really different. You need the tone to demonstrate compassion for his pain, remorse for driving him this far away, and a hint that if he risks further pain and opens his heart to you that there is a chance he'll be heard. I don't know how you can really communicate that until you FEEL that way, and you simply don't. So I don't really see whatever you send really being effective.

Personally I'd recommend just not saying anything and letting the conversation die, using the gift of time to focus on making some changes in yourself. That is a 10 mile journey that you took a few hundred steps down and have since been derailed by focusing on navigating through your own emotions and hung up on your H's bad behavior. That is a journey you will really have to walk, and if you do and your H is still in the wings maybe there's a future. I think letting this drop off will show him that you are capable of recognizing you were making a mistake in how you were handling things and aren't just charging around in a demanding and controlling way...and if you do pursue the conversation make sure you read my last few posts carefully like 10 times each...I am being serious. Maybe something will get through.

PS- I'm NOT suggesting this is all on you. I'm not suggesting his behavior is ok. I am just trying to focus on what you can control, and what would've had to happen for my M to stay together. Again, my STBX left me and has plenty of family and friends that are telling her she made the right decision, that she did everything she could do, that I'm just a bad guy. I just wish more for you and your H, and again, I think you can do it.

Hey BW, I understand your frustration here. One thing is clear to me is that your H does not want you to tell him how he feels. He has explicitly told you that...one of the few things I have seen that he actually has told you. I would make sure that you take that into context and right away make sure you STOP doing that.

I agree with the others that your H feels like he is not being heard...Make sure that when he does actually say something you are hearing him.

I would definitely keep the 'wanting to better understand part' because that is what you are after, but no more 'I think you feel' unless you are validating & repeating something that he absolutely has expressed to you.

Zues, thank you for your detailed post. I honestly get what you are saying and I understand why you think I have not been getting what you have been saying for the past 4 months on here. I can feel from your posts that you are passionate about this since it resonates so personally with you.

Believe me, for the most part, I spend a lot of time beating myself up everyday for not doing a better job of listening and taking action earlier in our M. I am not sure I can adequately express that pain through these posts that this causes me. I have been vulnerable in expressing this to my H on a couple of occasions and he was receptive and I thought I was making progress and was noticing my changes, but still leery. That was for the first month and half of DB.

Then I found out about the A, which to be quite honest has in many ways shattered my heart into a million pieces and hurt my pride. Yes, I get my H was so far gone from my behavior and not being heard that he felt this was his only option. Yes, I realize I broke his heart into a million piece years earlier. It does not make it hurt any less for me. The constant feeling like some how you are so broken and defective that it made your H turned to OW. But goes both ways, right? In some ways it has made we understand what my H was going through better. Regardless, reconciling my own feelings with empathy and compassion for H has been very hard. That was all when I was led to believe the A had ended. Finding out over the course of the last month that it is still going on, the extend of lies, and the fact the OW had been in our house on muliple occasions has made it even harder to maintain empathy and compassion. So, yes, I am sure that I have resentment and anger that is showing in my tone, but I am sure you can appreciate why this might be the case. I am sure for you this will just come off as an excuse, but hopefully you can find a little bit of empathy for why my tone might be a bit off. I fight it every day. Some days are better than others. A's are crazy making things.

I will reread your post multiple times and let it all marinate before I chat with H.

Zephyr, yes, you are right that I too often try to state what my H is feeling. I need to stop doing that moving forward. Thanks for stopping by.

You love your H and have tried your best to have compassion, yet the hurt he has caused you is so overpowering that you struggle to get past the resentment and anger.

Guess what? Your H may love you and has tried his best to find compassion for you, but the hurt you caused him is so overpowering that he struggles to get past his resentment and anger.

What a vicious circle. There are two alternatives.

One, you can keep score, assemble a biased team of your friends and family, showcase his bad behavior, minimize yours (unintentionally because you still haven't changed all that much and don't know what you really did wrong), and get their approval that you are the more wronged party and that you deserve to feel this way and he's a bad guy. Finalize divorce and repeat this in another R years down the road.

Two, you can break the cycle. I'm not sure you're really in a place to do this yet. I do understand the pain is too overpowering. That's why trying to hash things out with H right now may not be the best idea. To reach him you would need to be in a very compassionate, validating, and humble state of mind, that comes from detachment, not when you're wounded.

I think you have to put a fork in the M, grieve, GAL, detach, and let some time pass. Let the dust seriously settle. Let the flames from the conflict die down. Let it go. Live for a while.

I don't blame you at for where you're at. But knowing where you're at you have to decide whether this is the appropriate time to make life changing decisions and trying to go around that merry-go-round again. If you realize you're not detached and compassionate, maybe it's a good time to get space. You're still early in your sitch, only 4 months in today (happy antiversary).

Realize BW- my M isn't going to be saved. It's dead. What I'm telling you isn't easy. I don't even really know what works, because mine didn't and I frankly can't even imagine how it could have as I feel my STBX will go to the grave without realizing how deeply she wounded me. So I can't say what works, but I know what doesn't, and when I heard you preparing a confrontation it just made me cringe because I couldn't see any good coming out of it.

The good news is that if you do have a conversation, lapse back into that cycle, get angry and say things you regret, and just chalk up another negative interaction with H...that could be a blessing if you use it to bottom out and realize you have to detach. Just don't make the mistake of concluding he's the devil. Use it as a tool to help truly let go, grieve, GAL, and take some time to reflect and grow where you're not distracted by his bad behavior.

PS- I think what he's doing is atrocious and if I haven't made it clear how I feel about affairs and divorce pick a random post of mine from the last 6 months and odds are I've ranted about it somewhere in the middle. People shouldn't do this to each other. Period. So take some time to mourn and nurture yourself, just make sure when you can you move past your own pain for the sake of a brighter future. Take care BW.

B,
Please print off the postings from Zeus. He has given you much to think about and some excellent advice. Mourn your old marriage, give yourself some time to think about things and then make some decisions as to how you want to move forward.

Thanks all. I am taking everyone's advice to heart, especially yours, Zues. I clearly have a ton of work to do and I am willing to put in the time. I just need to figure out how to compartmentalize the A and remember that it is a by product of his pain and years of living in an unhappy M.

I am not going to have a huge confrontation with H, but I feel I have to at least have some short conversation with him after requesting time to talk about our M/living situation. I think part of it is that I am getting too influenced from friends. I need to pull back on sharing too much with them. I will keep it light, be compassionate, and will not demanding. All I really want is for home to be more comfortable for us both, especially H, so he feels he wants to spend time here. I just need some tension to go away and it seems that would be something he wants too.

I do have two questions:

1) Any time I have shown compassion and empathy for what my H has had to endure in our M and have shown emotion and remorse for my behavior, he gets upset and tells me I need to stop beating myself up that he is also to blame. Is it because I am saying it versus just leaving it to my actions? It is not that I say stuff constantly, but only in a couple of conversations.

2) At one point early on, H asked about my changes and said I hope you are not doing that for me. I said no primarily for myself, but also moving forward regardless if it is with him or for another M/ person, I need to make the changes. A couple of weeks ago, he brought this up and made a comment about how I am just changing for the next guy anyway. That was his take away from that conversation.

Any insight on both of these?

I would suggest that you select one only one person to talk to about your situation. That person will be your "support" system. When a person discusses their situation w/friends and famlily, they all have thoughts and ideas as to what you should do. They mean well, but they aren't walking in your shoes, and they want you to be happy and heal quickly, versus figuring out what you need to do for yourself on your time table.

I would suggest that you show your h w/actions that you are listening and are working on yourself. I wouldn't have any more discussions about what has happened and just be a friend. Actions speak louder than words. Okay?

Any changes that you make are for YOU. The changes you make are not to win him back. They have to be come permanent or else he's going to know that you are only doing it to convince him to return to the marriage. Make a list of things that you think you need to improve on yourself. Then start working on those changes, one by one.

If he makes comments about you are making them to win him back or for the next guy...don't engage. He's testing you to see why you are making those changes.

Bottom line, try to rein in your emotions and zip your lips and do not engage when he is baiting you.

Keep the focus on you and what you need to do to improve on yourself.

Oh, and this is the text I sent H regarding why I asked to chat:


Sorry I keep telling you how I think you are feeling. I need to stop doing that. I can tell that upsets you, which is the last thing I want to do. I am trying to learn, but it takes time.

What I want to talk to you about this weekend is my desire to open up better communication between us. I feel like there are things I am doing that are causing you to shut down. I have been doing a lot thinking while you have been gone and I realized that I have not been doing a good job of listening to what you have been trying to tell me. I am sure that is very frustrating and you might be at loss with trying to talk about it anymore because it's too disappointing when it feels like I ignore your feelings and wishes. I truly would like to understand what you are feeling and thinking better. It is the only way I can learn to fix what I have been doing wrong for the past 10 years. I think I have also been having some pride issues. You probably feel like I should already know after all of these years that you have tried to tell me, but clearly I was just not listening. I am sure it seemed like you were talking to yourself and being ignored. I am truly committed to really listening to what you tell me this time and I hope you can come and be willing to share some of your feelings and thoughts. Anyway, that is what I was hoping to talk about.

Sent it yesterday morning, but he did not respond, which is fine. I wanted to change it up slightly to sound like me, but I think it shows compassion. At least I hope it does.

Was feeling really down on myself this morning like I am failing at DB. When I first came on here one of the first things I heard is that you did not break him, so you cannot fix him. Which I agree with. I know as cannot fix H. For whatever reason, I am very defense about your posts Zues because all I take away from it is that I did break him. Maybe that is insecurity, low self esteem, not sure what, but I feel I am 100% my fault. I know this is a childhood issue for me and quite frankly I should have been the one who had MLC. I know you said I am not all at fault, but all I take away is that I am. I had this same issue with H, so something I need to work on. Always felt critized by H and it really started to weigh on me. I think that is why it is a relief when I get when chatting to my mom, IC,
and the one friend I tell things to. That it takes two to make a M deteriorate. That is is ok to be hurt and angry about the A.

But that was earlier, so I spent so time this morning reflecting on the positives to lift my spirits a bit. While I have an occasional slip up with H that were mostly prompted by discovery of A and in some cases I did nothing wrong (sending text to H's sister), I have actually been doing a lot of great things. I need to stop letting H make me feel guilty when I have not really erred or I was only setting appropriate boundaries. I can't take on his guilt too.

Positives

1) I have been maintaining family large house and yard on own and keeping to more much tidy and do a great deal of cleaning as GAL. This was complaint of H.
2) Anytime I have engaged with H, I have been 100% engaged. No IPAD or cell distraction. Another complaint of H.
3) I have only watched about 10 hours of TV in the last 4 months. I was literally addicted to TV as a diversion/coping/avoidance mechanism. Another complaint of H.
4) I have lost 30 lbs so far and I am feeling much healthier. This is due to lots of GAL, walking, bootcamp, etc.
5) H has been gone almost for 3 weeks. During that time I only initiated two texts. One of photo of dog because I figured he was missing him and he was and he appreciated it. And the text about talk this week, which was not great since I should have disclosed the topic with initial text. H however took it where it did not need to go and that is on him. There were a few about parents coming, but he initiated those. For the most part any interaction was positive except for this week and I tried not interact. I give my self a b-/c+.


Update on Goals for Summer

My goals for next three months fro early June....

-- Lose an additional 18 lbs by end of summer. I have already lost around 25.
Lost another 5, so only 13 more to go!

-- Take do a creative class-art, graphic design, photography, etc.
Done! Took a jewelry making class on Sunday.

-- Make some new friends and try some new Meetup groups.
Took a larger leap and created my own. First Meetup tonight with 7 coming. Around 30 have joined.

-- Work on figuring out next career move. I am in a bit of a transition spot.
Not made any progress here, so next on list.

-- Get out and enjoy the summer with some weekend trips with friends.
Have had a number of outings with friends and am going hiking and fishing in Wyoming with parents, brother and dog in another week. Have Wipeout race in August. Possible trip to local mountains.

And there is still half of summer left!!