[quote=BW05]Also, just to add that his words and facial expression clearly show anger, hurt and blame at me for a decade of unhappy marriage. But then after I show empathy, validate, and show emotion, then he tells me to stop beating myself up and he is also to blame. Yet he has shown no actions, guilt or remorse for his accountability or blame in our M. I don't get this.
^^^^^ Yes I do....guilt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One other point. Still very defensive about A. No surprise. Says our marriage was done. Asked why he didn't you just leave? I probably should have left. Didn't say this, but I was thinking why are you still having A, hiding and lying about it, and still here if our M is so done. Still blaming me for A. I said I take no responsibility for your A, so stop pushing that on me. You had other options. Said I do take 100% responsibility for half of our marriage issues.
He is looking really run down and clearly not happy though trying to act it.
Ok, enough of this. I need to get it together and follow through on DB. Am I that far behind at 3 months? I think others said letting go and detaching started to really fall in place at 4-5 months. Need to not be so hard on myself. Feeling drained today. Focus on ME, darn it!! Why is that so hard. I do feel I had some valuable reflection and learning from today.
Me: 42 H: 40 M: 12 H moved out - 8/2015 I filed - 8/2015
he is saying the actions I am taking speak louder than words and they are not helping our situation or his perception of how our marriage could be. This is why he feels he cannot talk to me.
Talk about a controlling tone. It's hardly fair to BD you, expect you to audition for your own M when he's not committing anything himself, and then sit back and judge, and then top it off with manipulative behavior by punishing you when you do it wrong.
The bad is you can't win by living up to his standards as that wouldn't be possible even at your best, and you're human and not necessarily at your best in this crisis.
The good is that he's speaking in language that shows he hasn't let go of the possibility of R.
Down the road I wonder if there's a way to open the door to counseling. You could even conference him in to your DB coach for one session and say "I am working with a counselor to better understand how I contributed to the breakdown of our M. I have come to learn some of the things I've done such as A, B, C (maybe including minimizing his needs for sexual connection, along with being supportive, appreciative, and accepting). But my therapist told me it would be really helpful if you'd be willing to join a session to express in your own words how it's impacted our ability to communicate. I'm not asking you to go to M counseling or do this on a recurring basis, but regardless of the future I want to learn from my mistakes and was wondering if you'd be willing to share that with my IC so he could help me better. Whether I'm there or not. Please think that over and let me know."
I would think the opportunity to be heard and validated would be overpowering, especially if it held the potential to help him get what he may really want. And if done tactfully it might not be pursuing.
But for now I think you can go slow, and the primary goal is to detach. If you did the above it would be laced with expectation, on his side for you to change, on yours for him to acknowledge that change. So I don't think you're there yet.
You're right about detaching. The dancing and the 'card game' continues and it's really hard to work on yourself when you're feeling reactive to him. Not easy BW, but keep on your road. Remember- HE ISN'T THE JUDGE OF WHETHER YOU ARE GROWING. YOU ARE. He is the judge of how he wants to respond. And it may hurt because you want R and see the grain of truth in what he's saying. But if you are doing your best then be proud.
Funny story. I used to have a hard time playing pool in front of my dad. For many years (when I was 14-20). He was so critical, and I was so eager to win his approval. But it was never good enough. Eventually I was top tier and used to playing in front of big audiences. Some of those in the stands would whisper things critically, or ask me why I shot a certain shot, or just say things kind of disrespectful about how I played. I quickly got to the point where I realized the audience is full of critics, but those are their own issues of insecurities or jealousies, whatever. And I got over it. So then I played my dad and he started in again and I just realized "he's just another a-hole with a critical opinion". Instead of seeing him as this parental power figure, he was just a jerk, and I knew how to tune out jerks.
The good news is that not only did I learn not to be bothered by it, once I wasn't I realized he wasn't all that bad once I got past that, and I am now able to enjoy my R with him and not let his quirks wreck our good times.
Amazing what detachment can do. By caring less about what he thought some of the time, I was able to grow closer and feel safe enough to recognize the merit of much of what he did think and feel that was positive. It can be done. Keep going!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Oh, yes. I have been amazed my how controlling and contemptous he is being about this entire thing. There is only one perspective that is legitimate right now and that is H's. If I try at all to bring up my perspective then I am blaming hiim. There seem to be three major elements that keep popping up from his viewpoint:
1) He is adamant he was finished with both me and M back last year. However, he is still very affected by things that I do and say and makes sutle references that he is thinking about paths to a future. It is clear he is not as finished as he wants me to think. However, I entirely agree that I am auditioning for the role of his wife. He is picking aoart my every word and action. He is looking for guarantees that our M will flourish again before recommitting. Until then, I think he feels entitled to continue on with A. So as Cadet said, he is spinning around in the victim triangle and constantly reminding me he us the victim.
2) He has major self esteem and self worth issues. I know that these were there already, but my lack of attention, physical affection, etc. have made it worse. In addition to wanting needs met, this to me is a major factor for why he has had A. He is trying to run from his self esteem issues in a very destructive way. I think this also has to do with the dramatic weight loss. When this A goes south or ends, I think it will be the start of his bottoming out as he will find his esteem issues only heightened further. He needs to get counseling or do some self help in this area to be healthy. I am almost positive there is an underlying issue that need counseling work.
3) His hurt, anger, and resentment are standing in the way if accepting my apologies and changes. He is not in a place to forgive yet. I feel he is still in a place of wanting to punish me, even though I am not sure this is a conscience effort.
I think like an addict, he needs to decide to get help on his own. I have tried multiple times to suggest him to see IC and he snapped the last time, so I am not bringing it up again. I did see something recently that indicated he might be finally looking at going. As a side note, the same thing also indicated substance abuse.
I am trying to do my best to change my part of the issues and am proud of what I have accomplished thus far. I just need to work on detachment.
Me: 42 H: 40 M: 12 H moved out - 8/2015 I filed - 8/2015
Stop apologizing. He knows you are sorry for whatever you may have done in the past. The past is gone, the present is a gift and we need to live it to the fullest and the future is not ours to foresee.
As for your changes...you make them for you and they must become permanent. Don't point out your changes as he'll think that you are making those changes to convince him to change his mind. Actions speak louder than words and when he points out the changes, don't defend those changes...just keep going on w/your life.
What he is going through is not something you caused. He would have experienced this crisis no matter who he was with or if he had remained single. You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him.
Continue working on you and definitely keep the focus on YOU!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I think I get often get validating and apologizing mixed up. I am an over apologizer to begin with and apologize when I am not even at fault--i.e. Someone bumps into me at airport or store I almost always apologize. It is my own self esteem issues.
Last edited by BW05; 06/25/1502:42 PM.
Me: 42 H: 40 M: 12 H moved out - 8/2015 I filed - 8/2015
BW05, Please accept my apology about your thread being dormant. I meant to post that over on the other thread. I'll send an SOS to Cadet and ask him if he can remove that posting for me.
Edit - Fixed - I thought that was a mistake when I saw it actually.
Last edited by Cadet; 06/25/1504:45 PM.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Oh, yes. I have been amazed my how controlling and contemptous he is being about this entire thing. There is only one perspective that is legitimate right now and that is H's. If I try at all to bring up my perspective then I am blaming hiim. There seem to be three major elements that keep popping up from his viewpoint:
1) He is adamant he was finished with both me and M back last year. However, he is still very affected by things that I do and say and makes sutle references that he is thinking about paths to a future. It is clear he is not as finished as he wants me to think. However, I entirely agree that I am auditioning for the role of his wife. He is picking aoart my every word and action. He is looking for guarantees that our M will flourish again before recommitting. Until then, I think he feels entitled to continue on with A. So as Cadet said, he is spinning around in the victim triangle and constantly reminding me he us the victim.
2) He has major self esteem and self worth issues. I know that these were there already, but my lack of attention, physical affection, etc. have made it worse. In addition to wanting needs met, this to me is a major factor for why he has had A. He is trying to run from his self esteem issues in a very destructive way. I think this also has to do with the dramatic weight loss. When this A goes south or ends, I think it will be the start of his bottoming out as he will find his esteem issues only heightened further. He needs to get counseling or do some self help in this area to be healthy. I am almost positive there is an underlying issue that need counseling work.
3) His hurt, anger, and resentment are standing in the way if accepting my apologies and changes. He is not in a place to forgive yet. I feel he is still in a place of wanting to punish me, even though I am not sure this is a conscience effort.
I think like an addict, he needs to decide to get help on his own. I have tried multiple times to suggest him to see IC and he snapped the last time, so I am not bringing it up again. I did see something recently that indicated he might be finally looking at going. As a side note, the same thing also indicated substance abuse.
I am trying to do my best to change my part of the issues and am proud of what I have accomplished thus far. I just need to work on detachment.
Our situations are so similar... Although H is not in a PA at this time, I see the likenesses between these two guys. I have a jumble of random thoughts after catching up on you thread:
First, a couple of things that I have noticed about my own situation:
- It has not hurt at all to stand up for myself and give H clear boundaries for what I will and will not accept.
- It hasn't hurt that he saw me cry and be sad, because it reminded him I'm human and elicited some sympathy.
- Emotional fights have not set us back lastingly, as long as they are not very frequent (anymore) and don't make up the majority of interactions.
When it comes to how he's sending mixed signals, isn't the saying around here, 'believe none of what they say and half of what they do'?
I actually agree with him about the message you sent him about your parents - if you ask open questions, you can't go wrong. Don't assume anything.
And I want to slap him for being upset about you talking to others and for *daring* to take the word trust in his mouth! If you can pull it off calmly, you could tell him it's a tall order to expect you to have nobody to talk to about the shock and grief you are experiencing, while he has an OW to support him. And yes, his sister - not ideal, but she asked. What were you supposed to do? Lie?
I think contempt and anger is defensive. If not, he'd have to face what he has done and feel guilt and remorse.
Are you going out and having fun? Staying busy? Being unavailable?
Last weekend, H was very disrespectful to me and blew off a nice dinner I had prepared, in order to hang out with some guys and drink beer. I had dinner, then changed and left. H knew I left and I told him I was going out to have fun. When I came home, he was *furious*. Told me I had made a *major mistake*. I told him it was strange that he was so upset, since he didn't really care much about me. He objected and said he *did* care. I told him I had visited a girlfriend and showed him her text where she invited me over.
Next couple of days he's treated me better than in a long time...
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
