Just a couple of comments, FWIW. Don't read too much into this... I'm sitting on the sidelines here watching this thread, and being kind of amazed. I probably won't express myself very well at the moment, so please don't take offense... none is meant.
Dave36, one thing that amazes me is your frequency goal. It makes me wonder just how starved you really are. I guess I have to think back about 12 or 15 years to put myself in your shoes, but when you say "I can survive on 1-2 times per week...", man, I can't even imagine anymore what that would be like!!! I guess I'm just jealous. I'm trying to get things up to once a month! That would represent at least a 100% increase in frequency for me. My ideal frequency, OTOH, would be more like once a DAY! Yes, even at (almost) 48. When I was younger, I would often m'bate two or three times a day. I've slowed down a bit.
But I really think you must consider that your frequency requirements are LIGHT years ahead of where your W is at, even though she seems to be fairly well motivated to work on this sitch. If you can even DREAM of 3 times a week, then I really do envy you. No, I'm not asking for pity...
Another thing... you might want to consider how likely bike racing is to enhance your sex life. My guess: not at all. Not to say you should'nt pursue it, but I think I'd be wondering where I wanted to invest my energies... in my R (if there was any decent sign things could improve), or in something like that. I think I'd concentrate on what would get me more sex... (but that's me).
Falling asleep on the couch - now that's pretty much a way of life for my W. Here's a typical day at my house:
6:00 am - she gets up, gets herself breakfast 6:15 am - I get up, have shower, shave, dress, get myself breakfast 6:35 am - kids beginning to get up, get themselves breakfast 7:00 am - I go check my email and other messages online, while she gets the kids' lunches 7:20 am - I make my own lunch 7:40 am - in the car, drive DD to bus, S17 to HS, me to work. 7:55 am - (smack, smack, smack) - three small kisses goodbye - FIRST display of affection for the day
(workday)
4:30 pm - she picks me up, drives us home 5:15-5:45 pm - she preparing supper 6:00 pm - eat supper (usually with whatever kids are home)
After supper, I spend some time either on the computer or doing my hobby (building model airplanes), she's cleaning the kitchen, doing ironing or laundry (she's a stay-at-home mom, and yes I DO help out around the house many a time!)
8:00 pm (or so, sometimes 9:00 or so) - we meet (FINALLY!) on the couch in front of the TV. We sit down, put on a show, and within minutes, she's in dreamland (leaning on my shoulder).
11:00-11:30 pm - head for bed. When we're both there, and the lights are off, (smack, smack, smack) - three small kisses goodnight - SECOND (and last) display of affection for the day. I usually pat her on the back or the bum during these kisses.
Yes, we should turn off the tube and spend some "quality" time together, but "she needs time to relax and unwind" (i.e. sleep). Yes, "I should feel all cuddly" while she sleeps on my shoulder, but it loses its appeal after about 10 years or so, when it is the predominant way to spend an evening. I'm supposed to be "flattered" that she's "comfortable enough" with me (afer 25 years of marriage and 3 kids!!!!!) to sleep on me (she's been doing this since courtship). Yes, I know, I should have seen the writing on the wall then... (20-20 hindsight)
Sorry... I'll stop now. I post this so maybe others might feel fortunate by comparison, or maybe just write me off as an imbecile for sticking it out so long... (sigh)
I really do appreciate this place, where I can finally (FINALLY!!) gain some insight from others who are going through the same thing, from a lot of different perspectives, and finally gain some clarity about my own sitch...
You hit the "key" point to my toil. What is the appropriate way to introduce W to a frequency which is excessively beyond anything she is used to? Don't be jealous, our frequency has been quarterly and maybe biannually one year which qualifies as a no-sex marriage. Last month I told her that I needed to be together every 10 days or so and she's almost there. But guess what happened when we started ML and kissing and being together again after 10 years of autonomy?
You guessed it...my "love" buckets started to fill back up and these require much more togetherness than I needed in the past when I wasn't "really into" the relationship as much. So now I have to revise the number and I'm trying to come up with something that takes "renewed love" into the equation.
I never for a minute thought that the racing would fix anything...just the opposite. I just need a HUGE distraction to take my mind of my M and this is a great one. Getting back into racing would be a clear emotional divorce at this point. The only thing that might happen this time vs. last time is that W now likes the "new me" and might actually get jealous of my riding and ask me back into the R. If it works, great, if not, great...I'm in shape and life goes on...either way the responsibility will then be in her shoes. Does that make sense? It's really a last resort and I would rather stay home and work on the R.
But back to the frequency...I'm sure that I will eventually chill out and be able to manage once a week.,,,I really need the frequency to fuel the transition. Afteral, it's the transitions that are tough...once we stabilize, I won't require so much fuel. The other thing about my number is that I suppressed my feelings for 10 years...I tricked myself into thinking that it was wrong to want that much sex and that it was my problem. At one point I tried to withold completely and W didn't even notice.
Quote: ...and I'm trying to come up with something that takes "renewed love" into the equation...
Aye, there's the cruellest twist of all! I know, because it's happened to me several times, that I can feel just the same for my wife as I felt for her in the beginning. Same butterflies, same lust, same feelings of Grand Adventure! But it's unrequited. She freely admits (out loud) that she can never feel that way about me again. (l-o-n-g s-i-g-h)
Quote: You hit the "key" point to my toil. What is the appropriate way to introduce W to a frequency which is excessively beyond anything she is used to?
I think you may have to be "satisfied" for a while on a plateau considerably short of the summit. Since the M was autonomous for so long, she will be pedalling desparately to keep up, but she has not been "in training" as you have. Nonetheless, progress is progress, and I hope you are loudly cheering her efforts. No, it is not enough (for you), (yet), and maybe she'll never quite get there, but maybe there can be a "happy medium". Dunno. Wish I did. However, IMHO you are WAY ahead of where I'm at. I'm rootin' for ya!
Quote: But it's unrequited. She freely admits (out loud) that she can never feel that way about me again. (l-o-n-g s-i-g-h)
Dude, that really bums me out to hear that. I really hope you can get her to see the importance of changing words like "never" to "with dedication...I can".
TUES PM: Just made possibly the dumbest blunder of all times....good for a laugh.
Tonight I made an unconventional attempt to offer my W some 1 on 1 time in the bedroom instead of the usual routine because she had a very stressful day. My thinking was that she would associate LM with being a bigger stress reliever than TV...which truly would be the case if she and I got that far. Anyway, she clearly established her "boundary" (god I hate psychobabble) by letting me know that she really needs a bit of time where nobody is touching her or "in her face". But she let me down easily by saying..."I love that idea, it's a very sweet idea...but just not right now". Ok, this is fine. This was NOT the blunder.
So as you know, I've been stewing over this list thing again and feeling completely confused about it. So I actually went to bed early and about 30 minutes later, she came up and asked me if I was angry at her or just feeling like sleeping. I said that I was not mad AT HER, but rather confused and trying to sort some things out, and probably more mad at myself for the way I've been acting. So we talked a bit and I explained again how I was feeling and touched some of the subjects in the previous posts. I mentioned the fact that we both make time in our schedules for the stupid volunteer initiatives and that we should at least be able to schedule time together. Anyway, it was cordial and I felt really relieved to have tallked to her...especially because I GAVE HER THE LIST (verbally). Here's what I said....
1. I would like to ML once on each weekend and once during the week. This number will probably decrease a little as we move out of this "building phase" to a "maintenance phase" where once a week would suffice.
2. At least once a week, I would like her to initiate the encounter at least a few hours in advance of with a note/clue. I then asked her how I initiate...she said with a "multiple choice card" .
Was this the blunder?......no.
So she was actually pretty cool with it because I proposed the Sex Diet and Tantra methods of daily sex as examples of "total immersion" approaches. She said she preferred to keep it organic but she still needs to know my expectations. Done.
So...she repeated her boundaries to me again and claims that this should be a universal rule for all types of relationships - couple, parental, business, etc. 1. Pick up after yourself 2. Don't be irritating (which I was at that moment).
So what was the big blunder?
She had come upstairs to ML...exactly half a week from the last time. Sh!t!!!!
I'm glad I talked, especially to clear the list issue up...it was killing me. But damn! I would have shed all the anger and tension if I would have shut my damn mouth an let her keep scratching my back.
No, Dave, not a blunder... don't beat yourself up. I think what you got was (in a way) BETTER than if you had ML, because you got some things off your chest, and gave her some info you'd been fretting about for a while. PLUS, you found out (at least you think you did... time will tell) that she's not running for the hills at the thought of twice a week. HOWEVER.... (my take only) it's easy for HER to say (after the fact, when it's too late) that she came up to ML. I may be missing something, but if that was REALLY the case, why didn't it happen? I don't see anything in your post that would have really side-tracked something that was really gonna happen. Sorry, I'm not really trying to pop the balloon, and maybe I really am too jaundiced by my own sitch, but it DOES sound like progress to me (the talk, I mean).
But... I'm confused by her list? How were you being irritating? By talking about your feelings? By opening up and sharing with her? (sorry, I want to type more, but I think I should restrain myself before I say something stupid - is it already too late???)
Well, I laughed, Dave! I guess I agree with Tim, that it wasn't really a blunder. Sounds like you made significant progress. But progress plus great ML would have been better. And why, again did you NOT ML? I'm guessing the talk wore her out, and it was getting late.
Something I have learned from reading and a TV show about sexual needs is that after a hard day, HD men NEED to mak love but women usually do NOT want to make love in that situation. Women need to empty their minds prior to making love, which may mean just sitting and listening to them. They are looking for empathy. So suggesting ML to relieve tension is NOT a good thing for a woman, it is for you though. SO maybe next time, just listen to her, but do not make any suggestions unless you are asked.
Well, the talking took too long and by the time we were done, she was wiped out.
Her point about "not being irritating" has lots of meanings. Think of someone you know who might be "know-it-all" or generally annoying to talk to. You typically want to avoid bringing any subject up with them. I avoid talking to my mother-in-law because the conversation always seems to turn into something about her.
W will sometimes say something about something that indicates to me that she's not completely clear (or correct) in her understanding. I have the tendency to correct her. This is probably the #1 annoying thing I do to her so a couple months ago, I asked her give me a visual clue...a hand signal that indicates I'm being a pecker. This is working great.
Now did last night's talk irritate her? A little bit because she wasn't expecting it. Does she need to be a little more understanding of my need to communicate with her? Probably, but I also need to make sure that when I'm angry and feeling the need to communicate, that I write down the issues and present them quickly and clearly. I probably could have turned the situation into ML had I done that. But the truth was that I was so bothered that her touching me (before the talk) didn't feel good. It was really weird.
This just goes to show that I should chill out. I keep saying that but I'm not doing it. All this reading is making me pessimistic. Maybe it's the fact that she's not approaching it like the LD women by making a big, noisy production of it. But if I just relax, and look at the situation right now...SHE'S WORKING ON IT TOO. I don't blame her for thinking I'm irritating. Afterall, I'm acting all "doom and gloom" when, if I would just lift my head up for a minute, I would see that our world IS dramatically changing for the better. If I would just pull my ass out of this site and the books and pay attention to her, I wouldn't be missing the wonderful, subtle changes that are going on right now.
I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill. I must chill.
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