Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Jim0987 #12 - testing out Mk8's new features

Morning All,

I'm doing ok thank you.

I've been off here a little bit just because I wanted to give my head a little more space to do some thinking. The post i made on friday bothered me more than I would like. I'll come back to that

quick update
I had the kids this weekend and we decorated our papier mache and generally had a really nice time. The kids were good and well behaved and seemed happy. D3 keeps asking about going to america, but i've no idea where thats come from. I was really tired and asleep by 2100 on both friday and saturday (really rock'n'roll I know)

two interactions with my STBXW on the child handovers, again i'm logging these because over time it may be that people can spot patterns or offer advice on what is working/not, what i could/should do differently

Friday (at her house).
very business like. she just wanted to give me the kids a brief update on how S1 was doing after his illness and get me on my way. Not hostile just very functional. I was barely out the door with D3 in my arms before the door was closed on me.

Sunday (at my house)
She was late (by about 10 minutes) and all dressed up for something but no idea what (my assumption is something with OM1 after tuesdays foray). when she came in, her body language was so eager to leave she was kind of pressing herself against the front door. wouldnt say hello at first but then we had a bit of a conversation about some things that i had bagged up for her that she had left behind and a bit of a chat about the kids. She relaxed slightly told me she was going to MILs next weekend and even said 'see you later' as she left.



I've conciously trying to spend less time thinking about my situation and its sort of working a little bit. I've managed to distract myself on some parts and at others used some of the mindfulness techniques to observe my thoughts.

Ive been thinking more and more on why I still want a relationship with someone who has so comprehensively rejected me. As Mozza has said this just doesnt seem healthy.

I've also been questioning the logic of DB (I know its counterintuitive) as the process of detachment would surely have the same impact on her. It feels like im helping to promote indifference and just 'hoping' that she gets so miserable she wants to come back. again that doesnt seem too healthy and is quite a challenge given how miserable she was.

I've also been giving a lot of thought to empathy and what that means in our respective situations. whether or not I feel i was abusive or critical and whether or not anyone else would think that doesnt really matter, as my STBXW feels (and seems to genuinely believe) that I was.

GGrass, as far as my W is concerned on the day her dad died i had a go at her for being a 'cr@p mother'. not how i saw it but i was WAAAAYYYYYY out of line. and i'm sarcastic always have been and i made way too many comments that she found hurtful - I used the excuse that i was just joking, but looking back i can see how they reflected my hurt and she would have known that and taken it as an attack. So yes i can see why she says what she says I abused her even though it never even got close to registering thats what i was doing.

I find it difficult to read some of what good people on here have gone through and reflect thats how my wife felt. Even if I never meant or wanted to hurt or even upset her and felt like I was always putting my needs aside (proper NMMNG I know). I cant change the past but at least i understand for the future

There is a lot more I've been thinking about empathy, what our WAS' do and why, how we choose to interpret that and some stuff about group think but probably not something to spend too much time elaborating now though.

I realise the tone may make me sound down, but reflective and moving toward accepting would be more accurate. I'm feeling reasonably positive in truth.

Anyway have a good day y'all

Jim, did you ever make a 'fulsome apology' to your W about the comments you made on the day her dad died. I can see that something like that happening at such a raw time may have felt 'unforgivable.'

My H told me when his grandma died, his XW did something (can't recall what) and he felt she really didn't care about his loss. I'm not saying your W felt the same, but that combo of critical and vulnerable could lead to that.

My H teased me quite a lot, and most of it I took in good part. However, when things became worse in our M a year ago, his 'jokey' comments had more of an 'edge' to them and they got to me more. He and I have discussed this since BD. One of his bugbears was that I used to wear tatty old pants. And he had a point. He used to go on about it, so I went out and chose some lovely new pants that I really liked. Thing was, he then said - oh, why did you choose those! And I was upset.

It's just a thought, and it may not be DB. But, I wonder if it's worth saying to your W. Hey, I know our M may not be in a great place right now, but I would love for us to get along a little better now that we're S. Even if that's just for a friendly few minutes whilst we exchange the kids. Do you think we could try that? I think it would be great for the kids to see us interacting in a more friendly way too.

It sets a paremeter on how long she needs to be pleasant for - but also means that those exchanges may become a little kinder and give you guys something more to build on..

Jim a bad throw away comment shows thoughtlessness. It's not planned in advance or malicious in intent.

My h combined thoughless comments with being absent, the icing was telling me he punished me by staying away after I had tryed to open up and share how I felt.

He still considered me a biatch about this and raised it in his L comments. H statements still invalidates my feeling surrounding that time, in fact h justifies why h is right.

I'm sorry but for anyone who has suffered a death, intimacy is not strengthened by invalidation of the loss and seperation of a few weeks. H planned that trip, it wasn't a thoughless in the moment human error.

H could also explain to others why that is the worst sin you can do to someone you care about if that someone was him or his family. H cannot transfer that empathy to another. He showed calculated and planned actions, all about him most of the time. There was no real we unless h wanted it.

I'm hoping you can see the difference?
Most people do the thoughtless stuff, I know I did. If h really needed me I dropped everything and was there.

I wasn't planning stuff weeks out, hell I hoped to get thru a day without h sutlely absuing me or picking a major fight. The only thing I planned was to not be noticed, to not upset h and be better so h would love me and be nicer.

To be honest my thoughtlessness was because I was too busy being wrapped up in my own insecurities and feeling hurt. This is the core of her complaint about our M.

There were occassions where she said she needed me and I wasn't there because I (wrongly) felt I had to work and there were others that I dropped everything to do what she asked. Problem is she needed to ask because I couldn't tell what she wanted. That and I avoid or leave when things get emotional (don't deal well with this).

Its not punishing its just being hurt and a lot cr@p, so I guess I'm not like your h gg as I wasn't trying to hurt but still not great for my wife and she had said, I just didn't (chose not to???) Understand

But yes, I have apologised many times. For that and other things.

I like the idea toots but I'm not sure now is the time, before she moved she said she simply 'can't talk to me' about normal stuff. At the moment its just keep with the solid parenting, courteous exchanges and being flexible where I can.

Okay then, if you don't think the talking will go well, what about something more focused on the kids? A small but thoughtful gesture? Sending a pic over of them doing something cute. Or getting her a little gift from them if there's a suitable occasion coming up...If she's full of cold, a little pot of daffodils from them or similar?

Tell me to go away if you want....

Jim just as an aside to Toots comment above, took s to one of our local playparks Saturday and he was having a major push on one of the larger swing nets (think big swing but almost like a giant tea strainer....not describing this well) took some pics and emailed one to w. We then talked about that quite a bit when we met up, the day, we'd been there, other things going on in the park that day.

In my case (only mine mind you) it helps to lessen the feeling of her "losing" s when she's not there and so keeps her from feeling she cant part with him. I know thats a particular aspect of my sitch though. I suppose the question is could it hurt at all?

Definitely don't want you to go away. I appreciate the suggestions.

I was wondering about the pictures of the kids, I always used to do this but she stopped responding a long time ago. Now not sure of the reaction now - she doesn't tell me what she's thinking or feeling - I suspect she would see it negatively though. Like I was trying to compete on parenting or something

I did things like Christmas presents from them and a new house card from them when she moved.

I'm not sure I should do anything though as last I knew for definite (Christmas) she was still very much infatuated with OM1

Well, I guess I'm only thinking in terms of trying to warm things up to a friendlier level with these suggestions, and that may be more about building better co-parenting interactions for now. In which case, I don't think what is happening (or not?) with OM is that central.

I don't see this as pursuit, more as trying to build a better foundation, put things on a better footing for the inevitable ongoing contact you guys have as parents.

But, as you say, if she's currently feeling all 'loved up' with OM, and possibly demonising you by way of justification, she may not respond positively. But I'm with Edz, is there any harm in trying a little something? Things couldn't be much 'cooler' than they are at the moment could they?

Is there anything your kids have said or wanted to do recently that you could use as a foundation? Like doing a bit of baking with the kids and popping some cookies in a little gift bag for your W? There's always Mother's Day coming up of course, but that's a little way off.

OM doesnt really matter as when he first wasnt interested, she was busy trying to "show him what he's missing" and pursued a couple of other guys as well. In some ways it almost made her more determined to paint me as the bad guy.

whatever the deal there is she has no interest or care for me which is the bigger point. Although I am still wrestling the urge to ask about OM.

to be honest what I think i really need to do is stop caring whether she is warm, cold or indifferent and I'm getting slightly better at that. But the humiliation and distance still hurt.

as co parents I think we do ok. Both the kids seem pretty happy and although the exchanges aren't great fun, they are functional. Do I really need any more than that? Would any more than that actually do me any favours in terms of moving on with my life?

I want to be able to share my life with someone who wants to help me make ridiculous finger puppet dioramas out of stolen trousers; engages with me on my abstract tangents; understands and accepts me for who I am and helps me to understand what I need to do differently when I inevitably get it wrong. And most importantly wants to share their life with me.

Right now that most definitely isn't my wife

I think the ideas are good to do little things here and there but I guess it needs to be in the context of just being an all-round better man and better father. Rather than as an effort to improve interactions

The next 'event' is the anniversary of her dads death but I can't remember the exact date. Its around now though and I do think a card or something might be appropriate.

I see that you're being encouraged to be nice to your WAW and try to reach out to her, to warm up your interactions. I say this is too early. At first, it's not about making them suffer from our loss. It's about letting them heal from our relationship. You're not a neutral person to her. You're an aggressor, someone who used manipulation to hurt her. It seems pretty obvious that your wife doesn't trust you, that she thinks you're being nice just to lure her back and then pull a big stick from behind your back. At this point, she needs to know that you are not trying to attract her back. This is what will feel safe to her. In several months, after she's gotten comfortable, she may become receptive to your niceties, but not now.

In DR, MWD writes "I don't know what works, but I know what doesn't work." This kind of trying to be nice, to warm up the relationship with WAW is typical of what doesn't work. She's trying to get away from you. You making more efforts than her to be nice is repulsive. Tap into past experiences when you were really irritated at someone, hurt by them, or just passed them. Show her that you're moving on, so you don't care about being any nicer than she is. She won't think "Oh, he's mean", she'll think "Oh, he's not a threat anymore." You'll revisit in several months.

To give you an example from my (non-successful yet) sitch: when WAW dropped D3 last Thursday, it was -15C outside. Yet, I only cracked the door open to let D3 in and I took just a minute, very politely, to gather info about D3's health. I knew WAW was on her way to work and that she doesn't like being in the house. I wasn't going to give her the luxury of turning me down. Yet, I was pleasant. A pleasant, unavailable person, at least for now. When she's no longer with OM and truly believes I'm not trying to win her back, I'll revisit.


YES! You often describe her moods here and I strongly suspect that it comes across in person, despite your best attempts to hide it, that you're very attuned to them. We're much less subtle than we think. It can be a look that lingers for a fraction of a second, an hesitation in the voice in the middle of a sentence, the position of our body... Part of DB is that you can't fake detachment for very long: you have to feel it to act it.


?!? How can you believe that this is a good idea under the current circumstances? I wouldn't go any further than a mention at drop-off. But remember that this is a trigger of all that she despises about you. There is NO WAY she will receive that letter and think "Oh, what a nice gesture." It will be good material to go to SIL and say: "You won't believe the gall! Bringing this up again after all the hurt!"

Not a vet's opinion, as you know... Well, why don't you have another look at DB or the 37 rules to see what's recommended?