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I dis read the man cave thread and was both saddened and enlightened. Saddened because the reason we DB is to obtain a good mix of opinions on our sitch and the posts felt very unbalanced. It would have hurt greatly if action was taken on the basis of some of the opinions given. Enlightened because some posts shone brightly about connection and the need for connection.

Does biology influence thought and behaviour. In repeatable experimentation it has been shown it does, but the situation is complex and testing not empirical. The basic premise of Venus and Mars is a pop psychology stance.

Does male biology equal Mars and similarly female biology equal Venus. In most cases there is a correlation between the two but not causative. It is a false conclusion to deduce that structure equals sexuality and sexuality is behaviour.
Generalisation won't help us.

As males and females we are on a continuum of behaviour sets. To set precedents over behaviour based on gender perimeters is unscientific. I doubt if this can be repeated.

For example measuring the size, function, electrical conductivity and blood flow has demonstrated little in the discussions of form over function. male and female brains and bodies have more in similarity than difference. We are unique as individuals a combination of our genetics, health and experience. In our ability to feel emotion then we are generic, we love, hurt cry and pray in the same way.

Our bodies are the suit that we wear on a day to day basis, but our higher power is universal. The essentials within our souls are equal and we are connected with humanity by spirit and love. Is there a masculine spirit or a feminine spirit, are these distinguishable in love?

If men feel emasculated or women feel they emasculate then I believe it is because the fear of being less than who we should be. We are diminished in our own eyes and that is our fear. If are with love and respect then we can not diminish and if we have strong boundaries we will not fear being reduced.
Strong men and strong women define themselves by their own definition and not by roles set by an uncertain society. Men and women are leaders in their own life and as a model for others because of their capability. This is not defined by earning power or the capability of nurture but is of how we love and live.

We come to the end of our lives and when faced with our mortality the answer to our being is how we lived and loved, not how male or female we are. In pain and death men and women are equal. Our spirits rise with the beauty of nature and our harmony within it.

I want us to honor our similarities and notice our differences, to treat each other with respect and love, whether we are in same sex R or traditional relationships. For as we are made by nature and spirit then we are flesh and blood and the same under the skin. If we do nothing then we label the destruction of our R with suggestions that it is our sexual differences that contribute when surely it our behaviour that is the cause.

We have one book DR and DB principles that apply to both sexes in whatever R, we have Sandi guidance which is for both. We do not modify this because of our sex, age, nationality, race or religious belief. We accept individuality and our body suit is one of our individual attributes contributing to personality.

I for one am very glad it is this way.

Vanilla

The same goes for me Cat, and you were one of the many people who helped me, so thank you!!


Vanilla, I'm not sure about the others, but think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I did not mean that I think all men are the same (Mars) nor that all women are the same (Venus), but rather that men and women have different wants, needs, desires, and behaviors, which are a product of their genetic make up, their hormones, and their environment. And while I have the greatest respect for both MWD AND Sandi, their opinions and techniques are not the be-all and end-all of DBing. We all need to experiment and see what is best for our particular situation, and try different things.


What I want from a man is affection, honesty, loyalty, humor, kindness, fun, sex, love. Empathy. Someone who will actually listen to me without judging me. And that is exactly what I get, because I chose better this time around How about the rest of you?

Linda

I think we are saying the Sam e thing. Individuality Is key rather than arbitrary categorisation.

Doing what works is a key tool, but we do this for ourselves irrespective of gender

V

One of my h complaints was I wasn't a dependant woman. He also complained I was pathetic and expected him to take care of stuff.


On one hand he wanted to be needed and irreplaceable but really couldn't live up to the task and found it smothering. Just my take. He wanted the alpha role, but couldn't live with a strong woman. He didn't want to share the roles, he wanted to control both ships, so to speak.

I love to be taken care of, the whole nice chivours behaviours. I don't like not been given any voice. Often that was the case,

This is quite the conversation

Train's post on the first page really struck a chord with me...ohhhh boy. H has two sisters, and his mother has outright said she may have done him a "disservice" by babying him and treating him differently than his sisters. She made haircut and dentist appointments for him all the way through college. Whereas my parents made me take an inter-city bus an hour home from college when I was coming home for the weekend, she would drive the hour each way to pick him up and drop him off for the weekend. She still to this day brings him extra groceries. She does not do these things for her daughters - why is that? I do feel like it contributed to him not taking care of things later on, me feeling like I had to step in to make sure things got done, and then over time he felt like he wasn't being an "adult" (or felt emasculated, I guess?) and rebelled. One time I jokingly said "it seems like your ideal wife would be like your mom - cook, clean, run all the errands, do everything for you and not say a peep about it, but still be someone who's hot and you want to have sex with." And he said "yep, pretty much" in a not-joking tone. He said he wanted to "act like an adult" and take care of things on his own, which is why he wanted to split, but hasn't really stepped up to do those things he said he would do.

I also concur with the statement made that all of these different things may confuse men about what it "means" to "be a man." I work in higher education and the topic of men and their success in college is big lately, lots of articles and conference topics about it. Women now outpace men in college enrollment, persisting through college, and graduating in a timely manner. Men are more likely to drop out, having drinking problems, and take longer to graduate. When a parent calls me 9 times out of 10 they are calling about a male student, and not with concerns about their female student (and 9 times out of 10 it is moms calling and not dads). There are a lot of theories, some pretty controversial, about why men are falling behind - could it be because they've been taken care of so much earlier in life that when they get to college, they don't know what to do and struggle living independently? Is it because men are socialized to think that showing you care about grades or doing well isn't "cool," and that it's better to be a slacker "bro" who doesn't care about things like that? Is it because women have had to be more flexible (and therefore are able to get ahead in the workforce and other aspects of life more quickly nowadays) than men (who are still clinging to the "old ways" of doing things that just don't work anymore, because they've never really had to adapt in the same way to get ahead?) This is one of the more controversial theories.

I was just reading about a book called "Manning Up" which talks about men being stuck in a permanent stage of adolescence - some quotes from the article about it: " Hymowitz argues that the real problem is our changing culture, which has become detrimental to men. Fifty years ago, men in their mid-to-late twenties were expected to be financially independent, married, and well on their way to starting families. Society expected men to grow up—so they did.

The "knowledge economy" has changed all that. The modern world encourages people to stay in school well into their twenties, all the while accumulating debt that makes it even harder to become financially independent and start a family. Plus, the skills required by a knowledge economy are skills that come more naturally to women. Jobs like those in the design and communication fields emphasize traditionally feminine skill sets. Even the traditional male bastions of law and management are becoming increasingly dominated by women.

Instead, today's men are tending to live lives free of most responsibility. Hymowitz criticizes the empty male culture of Maxim magazine, Spike TV, and lives lived with frat-boy abandon. Instead of shouldering responsibility, many American males have become experts at shirking it."

That may have gotten off-topic but to summarize: I do see a lot of different ways in which men may feel "emasculated" nowadays. Not necessarily all from us W's, as I'm sure we don't help, but there seem to be many other contributing factors.

So - I am dragging this up from the past just to answer that I am so glad your wisdom is still here on the forum.

You were such a wise poster who although you were much younger than me - taught me so many great things here.

I know you are missed and and just had to tell you that, and of course along with you, anyone else who might be reading.

Love you girl, and miss you!