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Hey Zelda,

OK - I'm all caught up now. I really struggle(d) with these 2 options as well, particularly around the 3 month separation mark. In the end I have settled on LRT (not initiating contact) mostly because that seems to be the advice given around here. Do I have doubts? Sure! Do I wonder if my H and R are different and warrant a different approach? You bet!

In the end though I suspect this comes back to me and my personality. Like you I feel a need to control and influence so I am learning to just sit back and watch. What I am seeing is that H is far from moved on. Where that will go I don't know, but in contrast to the early days I do feel pretty confident that he will initiate contact at some point. I'm contemplating saying to H next time - hey, there's lots of fun stuff going on at the moment. What do you think about the idea of me contacting you once in a while to see if you want to go? Just so I can get an update on where he's at with his requirement for space.

So back to you. Since it's only 2 weeks I say let things be. Let your F drive the bus as he wants to. Trust that he will initiate contact if he wants to.

Emotional distancer - I have my own ideas about that term. What do you mean by it?

Thanks Ganb8te. I think you are right about the LRT. I had a legit reason to contact last night for a bill that was past due, he was friendly in response, but also short and to the point, maybe a playful turn to a convo we had, but that was it. It is helpful to remember - he is not self-imposing a LRT. He could simply ask me how I was or reach out to me if he felt like it. He doesn't. And it doesn't need to feel tragic. Many times he said he doesn't have the ability to work on himself and us too - and is suspicious that I think I can. He is probably right.

Emotional distancer - at MC she first pointed it out. That I am emotionally avoidant in the face of negativity, self-pity, anything that feels destructive or chaotic to me. I just shut down. H has been going through some [censored], and every time he tries to express the desperation, I don't 'sit' with him, I oppose his feelings in some way or detach. This is where, despite all my best efforts at providing and caring (overbearing mother behavior) he would say "you don't care, you're not interested." Which would drive me angry-insane, I wasn't trying to give credit to why he would say these things, only that he was determined to feel like he was unloved. At the diner this weekend we talked again about this, very specific examples. I said that when he expressed his fears over his health, I felt like if I acknowledged them, I was breathing life into them and it would all be a self fulfilling prophecy. So I'd cut him off and tell him it was his choice in how he handled it. Or that he was looking at something unfairly, or wrong, or that he had to take some responsibility. (And I think there is some truth in all of that, but it wasn't my place to beat him over the head with it when he just wanted a friend.) That kind of tough love. Emotional distancing - inability and disinterest in showing any empathy. Not like the attention of a lover or friend. He agreed, and this is exactly what he doesn't need in his life, and this is what he meant by "you're not good for me right now," and "I don't want to battle you, too, with everything else going on."

I read something on another thread that was helpful today. The gist:

A WAS first wants head space, relief.
Then they maybe want your understanding.
In that order, on their timeline.

Opportunities to present unconditional love and validation will arise. In the meantime, do your work to be your best you and make your changes, and some ether in the universe will tell them your psychic energy is no longer focused on them and you're not sitting around hoping and praying anymore. And you're a fine catch. If there is any hope of drawing them back to a desire to contact you, this is it. That thread had a lot of good points about how if any of that is done with the head and not the heart, best intentions aside, it will feel like manipulation to them because we all have spidey senses.

So. My H knows I love him and have had my awakening, or the beginning of one. He knows the offer is out to come home and work on our M, slowly, while he does his work. I know my H is struggling with faith and all sorts of things and his journey and choices have to be his. I will do my best to be at peace with it all, and true to my NY resolution, find an extra 15' a day that he's not on my mine, and my happiness is.

Well, so much for that ^.

I started re-working a sentimental piece of furniture, and it involved his power tools (180). I shared the result with him this morning via text, and it was an encouraging exchange. H brought up 'us' even tho I was keeping it light. I couldn't figure out a response - I wanted to be cool, but there was so much that seemed deeply important to talk about. So instead I asked if we could talk and so we did, for 40'.

I shared with him some more that I am learning and reflecting on. Some continuation of the bar conversation we had last weekend. I listened to where he is with things, which is a lot more positive, but still very intent on finding his independence and he thinks he will have to do that on his own, not in our house. He just doesn't feel like he can resist trying to focus on me again if he were to come home. I told him about the NVC stuff (from Ganb8tes thread), some parts in the video about requests being heard as demands, other things I thought I saw in us, and he agreed and started opening up about where he thought he engaged in some toxic expectations along the lines of 'you'd act like this if you loved me.' I shared a surprise with him that his truck is in road worthy shape again (I figured it would be a gift toward his independence regardless of where it was parked in the future.) He thanked me, and we had some interesting conversation on what it meant to him but also how he needs to figure out how to solve the rest of his problems without me. That he knows this is my preference for showing love, but he needs more emotional connection. I said something about how I understood that now, and it was awful to finally understand and not be able to do much about it. And he said, "no, it's not...we are more connected now than we've been in a long time. Please don't regret the fact there is some understanding here. Would you rather be married and disconnected or in a good relationship and connected? It's the people that matter, where strength is, not the label of the relationship." We talked a lot. When conversation circled around again to possibility of him returning to our home and what MC had said about it...he really caught me off guard, saying that if I had new expectations crop up and a new timeline agenda, and got into a fight before we'd really developed some new skills, that would be it for us and he didn't want to risk that.

WHOA. Big change from "I have little hope for our marriage." I cautiously asked that when he came back into town, if he would continue going to counseling and seeing me regardless of where he was living...the answer was yes. I asked if he would let me pick him up from the airport...again yes. And then he offered, maybe I can stay at home a few days. I told him I would very much like that.

So. Something is shifting. I am trying to remember that slow is fast. And that the greatest thing I can be for him is an unconditional friend and not to try to coerce or pressure him into what I want which is for us to be un-separated.

Here is how I am thinking of this...I can pursue my H emotionally, but not pursue about the relationship. One is what seems to be bringing us closer, the other is what he is getting defensive about. We are still both scared.

I was emotional distancer in our R. He's deeply feeling oriented, I'm emotionally constipated, or was before my heart was broken and I realized I seriously had some work to do...I've given him weeks of space, very little contact. He is not someone that has patience for light fluffy conversation. No R talk, and little contact didn't move anything forward. Sharing my introspection, reflection, listening to his...a connection is developing, and I have to pursue this connection - that is the 180 - he described me to his friend as 'detached' throughout the whole last couple of years - more detachment hasn't really caught his interest. And maybe he's had enough space now where there is room to have these conversations and start connecting (certainly wasn't when he was furious and walls were up all over the place.)

With that said, I think I have to continue for the next couple of weeks giving him a healthy dose of that space he went to go find, but not be afraid to reach out when it feels right either? I think he already imagines I have quite the GAL going on - this was one of his complaints actually. It can't hurt to let him know he is in my thoughts as long as I don't get desperate about it.

I am worried about so much. This process is so hard. The worries never go away, they just shift their dimensions and details.

Wow. Just WOW! Zelda, you are giving me a lot to think about. (There I am again, with the isTj).

This friend of yours who "facilitated" the meetup, did you approach them for info or did they contact you? I could really use an external view on what is going on, but it would require asking a mutual friend and I'm not sure how to do that in a way that won't cause more problems.

He reached out to me at first. It was a little awkward, and pretty un-dude like to willingly step in like that. Especially when he was a far from mutual friend. Maybe you could see if your H would be willing to meet to talk with you about some things without a 3rd party? Sounds like he doesn't avoid you, and you guys have had the space? He has bee one to bring up R in the past, no?

Hey guys, I need some outside feedback here, please. My emotions are still all over the place. I feel like I am losing touch with reality, my emotional truth, and talking myself in all kinds of circles over what is happening. Like there's a bigger picture outside of the R dynamic, the changes I need to make, and I can't quite resolve it.

I've definitely wrapped a lot of my head up in where he's at, how he's feeling...and I spent some time this morning trying to detail all of my emotions right now. It helps to write them out, but honestly, I'm wondering now why I am working so hard.

I am feeling:

-annoyed at the fact that he is past mid 30's and suddenly realizes he needs to find himself. But is helpless about how to do that and still in a self-admitted fog. (this sounds like judgement, criticism. It's not my place to have feelings over his journey one way or the other. Implies that he 'should' be somewhere else and 'should' is the root of all emotional discord.)

-concerned that there seems to be a life long pattern of disappointment with people, depression and a not very firm grip on how to navigate the world, assert his needs and his will over his life. that he has said that he looks for stability and happiness as something a partner will bring him. (can I be at peace with his world view, and truly accepting of this if it doesn't change?)

-sad that he doesn't place the value on our marriage that I do. It makes me feel small and worthless, like I am not good enough or worth working for. It is hard not to take his decisions personally.

-And this in turn makes me feel angry that I think it has always been this way, me being more enthusiastic and desiring of our relationship than he was, positive and full of faith for our future. There was something wrong, obviously. And I refused to recognize it. I feel regret over that blind optimism.

-relieved but worried, knowing he's said so many of the same things to our friends that leave them telling me they're baffled. They see the contempt and deep anger he has for everyone right now for not doing more for him. I am not crazy. But this means he is not in a sound place. (there is judgement here. But if these are my values - personal responsibility and rational processing - and I do judge him as lacking in that, is it so bad to be honest with the conflict this presents - how do you respect someone when they dramatically go against your values? can romantic love hold up against this?)

-upset that the support of childhood friends could mean more than his marriage (decision to return to home state). I understand he thinks he needs to put himself first, but at what expense? (not my issue. I need to focus on me.) I can set a boundary here though - if that is his decision, I know that I am not willing to see this out. This is already almost more than I can handle. I would be happier with a D if he really needs to move out of state. I think he imagines I will just put our M on hold while he works on himself like this, but it's just too much for me at that point.

-worried, fearful of the Oxycodone and possible underlying personality and character issues. (Worried because it represents a lifetime of struggle and more of the adult-children of alcholoics issues - subjugating my needs for someone else.)

-confused about what I want in my future - him with possibility of hard life/no kids, or being single and a chance to go after a life and partner that matches my speed, drive, ambition, goals. If the emotion of love is not part of this equation, and the vows I took, my decision is clear.

-grief over everything that has happened to him in the last few years. Grief in my inability to hear the pressure cooker of worry, doubt, fear, his grief, anger over a life that will have some disability and pain for another 50 years...that I wasn't a better partner for him and he felt like he couldn't talk to me about any of that. My blind insistence on being positive and finding the gratitude and joy when he was (is) far from that place. I was there for him sometimes, the way he needed, just not often enough due to my own coping methods.

-hopeful that if I can learn to be more emotionally connected to myself and others that there is a road to a good marriage with him.

-sad over the wedding pictures, the honeymoon album, the life experiences we shared, the life we have built over the last six years being reduced to this. I am not ready to say goodbye to it just yet. I've been trying. I accept that the old M is over...but emotionally, it's still with me.

-angry that he doesn't take any responsibility for the self-talk that turned me into an enemy, or his actions in withdrawal and anger all year long that got us here, the hatred he treated me with. It took two, which he acknowledges, but all he could say about it months ago was an apology over text about not being a better person for me. (why am I trying to hold on to someone that treated me so badly, who is so lost...and has made so many moves to consciously, emotionally detach from me?)

-manipulated? how can he detach like this and still talk about being connected, we can ML, and he can get me all hopeful about coming home for a few days? Am I just a convenient stop while he figures out his situation? Am I being used because I still give a damn?

-worried that there is something in me that needs to be in this mothering role, trying to save him, or that needs this rollercoaster of instability that our relationship has been. My IC has started hinting about this as something I need to explore. I see her tonight.

Maybe there are no simple answers or clear understandings to be had here. Maybe I am driving myself crazy trying to have a view on all this that is somewhat consistent across the board.

Here's a real existential crisis - we're born alone, die alone, and every relationship we have happens exclusively in our own heads - even the other person in that relationship has a completely different experience of it. Every sensation and feeling from our own bodies, it's all in our heads, and there are maybe only illusions of connection with anyone.

Well, if this is going in circles, then I've been there done that. I have felt these exact feelings at one point or another - still do from time to time - so it all looks pretty normal to me. Couple of quick thoughts:

- I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves because we choose to add a dose of optimism. We've all been around people who who are negative, and I for one would not chose to be in an R with that. Our optimism is a gift and it's one of the reasons why we continue to stand while our S appears to have lost hope. That's something to be valued and cherished IMHO, particularly in light of the last paragraph you wrote. Maybe one day our S will realise that. If not, it's ok because we'll approach the next phase in our life with optimism.

- Just like the Giraffe said - thoughts and feelings come and go. Some will stick around longer than others. At some point we'll probably settle on some that will guide us in a particular direction. For now though, all you can do is sit with them. I think it's good you wrote them out.

- I know you are taking a different approach and "emotionally pursuing" H with some positive results so far. One difficulty with that is that LRT is just as much about the LBS as it is the WAS - to give LBS space to gather themselves and find peace with the situation, learn not to control the outcome etc. Are you denying your opportunity to do this with your approach?

- If you are finding that you are constantly mulling these things over, then I suggest you try doing some daily meditation. I use the Headspace app on my phone. I've been recommending it to others here to the extent that I'm worried people will start to think I have a commercial interest! (I don't) Enough people here have indicated that they found it useful, to make me think you could also find it useful.

Zelda - you are still so early in this. Give yourself some time to detach and learn to go with the flow. What are you doing on the GAL front?

Ganb8te peddled her headspace wears to me...

Genuinely though I find it useful, if challenging.

And yes Zelda your last paragraph was very existential, but is something I can identify with.

Got the Headspace app. Good stuff.

Ganb8te - lots of GAL. Work, painting, working out, friends, I'm good and strong there. But every available minute and bit of space in my head outside of anything immediately demanding is trying to digest this situation and make some sense out of it all. Sometimes I make more progress on the reality front, vs. the this can't be happening, when am I going to wake up front. I just don't know how to shut out the thoughts for more than a few minutes at a time.