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THanks Ile Guy. I do see a lot of similarities in our situations and reading your thread helps me understand him a little bit better. I used to be needy but the past 14 months of DBing has helped with that a lot. I think when he slips back into his "wanting to work it out" phases I also tend to slip back into a bit of neediness. But I don't think my needs are so off base. I want a partner. Someone who will discuss finances with me, and plan for a future with me. I want someone who will spend 30 minutes every day with me doing some shared activity. I don't care what it is as long as we are both fully engaged together. Not on a computer or phone. I think that was part of my problem because I don't like just sitting and watching tv without having something else going on--like the computer, or knitting, or something. I think that bothered him. So I'd rather the activity not be watching tv. It could be washing dishes. Going for a walk. Sitting outside. And I want someone who is going to say good morning to me when I wake up. And good bye when I leave the house, and hello when I walk in the door. Hugs and kisses a few times a day. And someone who will come to bed with me and wake up next to me, rather then sleeping on the couch. I don't think those things are too much to ask, but maybe it is for him.

I really don't want to save the marriage anymore, though. I really just want to move on at this point. But I also feel a bit paralyzed.

Yesterday was tough. Christmas morning was same as every year. I went to church and there were very few people there, it was so quiet. But it was also nice and intimate. I needed to take communion. I needed that acknowledgement of forgiveness, because it helps me to forgive--both myself and him. But I am noticing it is an ongoing process--not a one shot deal. After church I went to my uncles' and D11 wanted to come with me. H wasn't leaving for his sisters until later so she was able to come for a little while and he picked her up. Sent S13 in to get her because he didn't want to see anyone. He usually doesn't come to my family on Christmas day. For the past few years he hasn't wanted to do anything. I was glad he made plans to go to his sisters because the kids always see my family and need to be a part of his. But after the kids left I couldn't hold back the tears. I have a huge family and I have no idea who knows whats going on, but no one asked why I was crying and a couple of cousins sitting nearby rubbed my back so they all must know.

At the end of the night, after almost everyone left I talked to my uncles and some cousins about the situation. I got some interesting feedback from my uncle's husband. They got together around the same time that H and I did. And he said he always felt like there was a detachment with H. I think that a lot of it is because H just really hasn't been around. But it made me feel a little bit defensive of H. He really is a good man, and a good father, but he just isn't good for me anymore. My uncle made it seem like he didn't think he was good for me from the very beginning. I understand what he is saying, his unavailability was apparent whenever there was a family or social event (not just with my friends and family but with his too). I think part of it is undiagnosed ADHD, he just isn't one to sit and chat--more likely to be helping in the kitchen or entertaining the kids somewhere else to avoid the conversation. Sitting in a dining room drives him crazy and he always had to sit near the exit at my grandmothers. The first to start clearing the plates and running errands. But gatherings that included playing sports or some other active activity he was different. It's funny because a few weeks ago his cousin mentioned to me that he always thought it was weird that he would never sit for Thanksgiving when S13 was a baby, always walking him around or taking him away from the crowd. And before the kids he was always so super attentive to me, serving me drinks, asking if I needed anything. I thought it was so sweet, but now I wonder if that was more of his need to avoid the sitting and chatting part of family gatherings. I don't know what he was like before me, and his cousin didn't seem to remember, although I do remember in our early years together there was always a football being thrown around outside that he was a part of.

It makes me sad that my family never really got to know him at his best. And I did feel like I needed to defend him. But then again, he is the one who let that side of him be what was known. It isn't my responsibility to make other people see his good points. I kept the conversation focused on me, though. The reality is, he doesn't love me and I don't want to be with someone who doesn't love me. Period. That's all there is to it. Nothing else matters at this point. I don't regret marrying him, and I do still love him, but I don't need him to be my husband anymore.

You have had ample time to figure this out, and the only one that truly knows when its over is you. I will continue to pray, and maybe if he realizes this, who knows what may happen. Just please read my link on offering and accepting real forgiveness.. It will only benefit you in the long run. It is like dropping a 100lb weight off your back... very liberating and opens you up to many more options and opportunities.

I had a long talk with my neighbor last night, it seems I am the local pseudo therapist now...LOL. She has been holding on to things that happened in her marriage since her divorce over 7 years ago. It is literally killing her inside, from some of the things that she does to cope from never letting go and forgiving. We talked long and hard about how forgiveness is not forgetting and forgiveness is not about the other person. It is to help you realize the fallibility of humans and we are all imperfect. seems like a light bulb may have went off in her head and she may be realizing that its time get on with her life.

Another help may be The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

Matthew Chapter 18:21...

Good luck and youre in my prayers!!!!

It's funny, I think I just posted the same thing you just said to me in your other thread. LOL

Hey, MS, I just posted something on my thread that I almost posted here. I am enough, and you are too.

I've been struggling a lot lately with whether I'm actually married to the guy I've been describing to people for years. I really don't have any idea anymore.

Struggling with forgiveness too. But for me, I think I'm just starting to realize how very deeply he hurt me. I worked so hard for so long to minimize everything that was happening because I was so desperate to save the marriage. Now I'm not so *desperate* to save the marriage I feel like I'm getting knocked again by all the hurt the way I should have been in the first place.

Forgiveness is going to be a process.

I don't know how that grabs you. I'm just rambling but I didn't want to leave you hanging.

Take care this weekend, I hope you find real joy as the year winds down.

Yes, Maybell. That's how I feel. I think it is part of the "Acceptance" piece of this grieving process. Part of accepting the situation for what it is means finally having to admit that I'm hurt by things he did. Previously I was so focused on trying to understand where he was coming from and trying to be patient while he worked out his demons, but now that the focus is on me I am finally accepting the fact that I have been mistreated--regardless of his reasons for doing it, be it MLC or alcoholism or depression or just who he is that somehow I never noticed before. I think it is a good thing, even though it doesn't feel good, to finally get to the point where I can fully admit that I deserve better. And feeling the anger is part of that. Now that I know it is there and I am letting myself feel it maybe I can really let it go this time, rather than just continuing to shove it back down and talk myself out of it.

I am the type of person that always takes on the responsibility for when things go wrong. I always have to figure out what I did to make it happen. But I think I am now getting to the point where I realize it isn't always my fault and no one has the right to treat me badly. I don't have to accept that anymore, not from him, not from myself, not from anyone.

Maybell, you can only control what you can control. here is a link that I shared with Mustardseed regarding forgiveness. I hope it helps...

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage...-in-forgiveness

there are also some other links at the top that I hope helps....

Amen

I too have just had this light bulb go off ... call it detach, self worth, return of some self esteem .. whatever it is .. its warm and cozy and I think I want to wear it around the house for a bit.

So yesterday I barely left my bedroom. I was supposed to clean it, but I didn't do that either. I spent the entire day in bed, on this message board and a financial message board (reading not posting too much) and looking at homes for sale and for rent and figuring out what my goals are for 2015.

Looking for homes is frustrating because now that I make a good salary buying a home feels realistic, but keeping my housing expenses at the 30% mark is really tough around here. It's impossible to find a three bedroom apartment for under $2000 a month and according to financial gurus I shouldn't be spending more than 1800 on rent or mortgage payments. Also there is a number of 36% of debt to net income ratio that lenders look at when you apply for a mortgage. I don't know if that includes the potential mortgage or just your debts before the mortgage (although that seems extremely high). My biggest debt right now is my student loan and there is very little I can do about that at this point in time. I have no credit card debt and my car payment is low (maybe I should just focus on paying that off).

But the frustrating part is while I am crunching the numbers I get this pang of resentment knowing that with our combined income we would be golden. Yes, his credit needs some fixing--but still. If he could just snap out of this we could save for a downpayment in months and finally be homeowners. But then again, his track record with money makes me second guess if I really want to get involved in such a large investment with him. I am frustrated that now that we have the means to make our dreams come true, he has checked out of the dream.

I am still going to try to do it for me, though. I might have to move in with my parents for a while to save up for a down payment. These are the goals I have that make me want to rush out of this marriage just so I can get moving. I am going to be forty in 2 months and I am looking forward to starting off that decade with my life fully in my hands. Perhaps that is why I am in a rush to get out of this home and this situation.

Today I need to spring myself into action. First things, clean my room. Get rid of anything I no longer need in my life. Start working through things that need to be dealt with before we make the split.

Deep breaths.

So I just had a talk with him. Told him I don't want to live here anymore and whether he comes with me or not doesn't matter. I told him I still love him and if he decides he wants to work on the marriage I will consider it, but I need to focus on meeting my goals with or without him at this point.

I told him I plan to move in with my parents until I can save enough to buy a home and that I am ready to move forward with an S or D if he is certain he is ready for that. He said he is. We briefly discussed our things, which was kind of sad because it was so easy to talk about who gets what. We were in total agreement that both of us viewed just about everything in our home as either his or mine. I guess that just goes to show you how long we have been living separately. Because neither of us have anything that we brought to the marriage. Everything we acquired during our relationship, yet it is all so clearly defined as either mine or his. Anything that we bought or was given and felt shared has long been gone (either broken, or tossed away, or lost).

I told him that I have an appointment with the lawyer on Monday and when I made the appointment I was ready to file, but since then I have been waffling and I realized it was because I felt like I was being unfair not giving you the heads up to see where you stand. Now I know. He thanked me for being honest and said I should go ahead and file. His only concerns were the kids and school. I told him there is no reason for them to change schools and we can commute on the days when they are with me (I work out here anyway so I will be commuting daily--their school is 10 minutes from my job). It's a private school so even if he moves they can still attend until we decide to make a new plan (or he changes employment--we get a good deal on their tuition because of his job).

So now I need to talk to my parents. They offered to let me move in, but I haven't really discussed it with them because I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary. I am scared, and sad. This was too easy. But again. I am going to be true to myself and my feelings. I do love him. I don't regret marrying him. But it isn't working anymore. Maybe we can get to a place of being friends once we stop trying to be husband and wife.

ETA: Another concern of his was his car situation. But he needs to get moving on that. I am not going to put off my plans because he is procrastinating. I asked him why he hasn't done anything to end the marriage if he was so sure he wanted it over? he said that it is just because he is a procrastinator like with everything else. So he wasn't holding out, he just was being lazy. hmm I guess that's why we don't mind read.

I'm meeting with the lawyer today and I'm scared to death. I don't think I really want this.

I lost my mind a bit yesterday. After we had what I thought was a decent talk about how we should take the next steps, he went out and didn't come home. Before he left I asked him if he was coming home and he couldn't give me a straight answer, then he followed me out the door and accused me of making a scene in front of the kids. I know it wasn't a scene, it was an honest question. the fact that he turned it around on me really bothered me so I texted him in the morning telling him how it only felt like a scene to him because he is ashamed of his choices.

I did everything opposite of DBing partly because I was pretty sure I am done DBing. I couldn't let up all day. I needed to tell him what I was thinking. These are all 180s for me because usually I hold it all in, but I was acting desperate. I was all over the place. I think I was hoping for one inkling of hope that this isn't over. I didn't get it. But looking back over the conversation I did get this:

He felt like I wasn't supportive of him and that I was judgmental of him during our marriage.

At the time I almost missed that comment. He framed it in a different way saying he wanted to surround himself with people who were supportive and nonjudgmental implying that I was no one of those people. And yes, I was extremely judgmental these past couple of days. It hurts me to think he thought I have been like that to him for a while. It's been a lot of months now of me wanting a reason why he is doing this, and I think there is my answer. But I was caught up in my own side of things that I missed the chance to validate. That comment just got brushed aside until later, after I had some time to myself to mull things over and it hit me. There is my answer that I have been searching for. He feels like I haven't been supportive of him and the fact that he hates his job and his life and his living situation.

Now that I know I feel like maybe this can be saved. I didn't validate at the time. I was on my own mission of wanting him to be different about everything and right now looking back I think I might have missed my chance.

But here's the thing. I still don't know how I could have showed him my support. My way of being supportive was to say, "let's make a plan so we can get out of the situation" and I started taking steps to do just that. Taking over the bills, starting a budget, little things to free up some money so we'd have more options. But I feel like he resented that--it made it worse. He didn't want solutions? Or maybe he felt like I was telling him he wasn't doing enough? I don't know. He said he wants to surround himself with people who are supportive and nonjudgmental. But does he mean people who will stroke his ego and not expect anything of him? Because when you are married to each other and share children there are certain expectations--expectations that the bills will be paid. That we will be home with the kids at night. That things are taken care of. It's easy for those friends of his to feed his need to wallow because they don't have a stake in any of it.

He also brought up things I said in past conversations (all within the last two months because that was when I started losing my DB focus) and I realize he heard everything I said completely wrong. Or he twisted it into something else. I told him that this is why we need counseling because we are hearing completely opposite things and we need someone to help us translate. His reply was, "this can't be fixed. It's time to move on."

He told me maybe I should go out to my parents yesterday after our talk and he could have some time with the kids for a few days. I agreed--which is where I am now. But I miss them terribly and I keep wanting to text him. Wanting to keep pushing for that one inkling of hope.

Here is where I stand right now as far as what I want:
I don't want to live in that apartment anymore. I can't wait to move out. He says he doesn't either but doesn't want to move someplace with me.
I want to reach my financial goals. Something that will be easier for me to do if we aren't married.
I still want us to have a chance at fixing it.


Financially I think my life will be much better without him. I will qualify for lower student loan payments so I could get into the Income based repayment plan. right now I am in the extended standard payment which doesn't qualify for the loan forgiveness program.

I won't have to wait for him to give me bill money anymore, and I won't have to ask him for it because he will be legally bound to give me child support. I won't have to worry about where his paycheck is going.

I'll be able to save a ton of money because I will have to move in with my parents for a while--hopefully when it's time to get my own place I will have a decent down payment for a home of my own.

Financially D makes all of the sense in the world.
Emotionally, I'm still not ready.
I don't feel like we've done everything we could do. I feel like our marriage is on life support and the doctor said there is a treatment that can give it 50% chance of survival, but H wants to pull the plug without trying that treatment.

I know I've done everything wrong the past 2 months (after a year of really working hard to detach). I've gotten emotional and really angry. I started talking to people and everyone tells me I need to leave. That I can't let myself be treated this way anymore. That he doesn't love me anymore. And he really doesn't love me anymore. That is such a hard thing for me to accept but it is true. He said so himself yesterday. He values other people over me.

And I don't want to be with someone who doesn't love me. And I don't want to try and be charming and loving toward someone who has mistreated for so long. But for some reason things don't feel finished. And I don't know what I am going to do when I get into my lawyers office today.

I feel sick to my stomach (I am slightly hungover which doesn't help) and I feel so very alone.