I've been to that point 3 or 4 times. I mean really been there. A couple of times W asked me to wait and the other times I decided to put it off, but in each case, W moved a little.
Usually she said she'd move a lot, then backtracked or told me I had misunderstood, but in each case there was some definite movement back toward the relationship.
I would caution you against using it as a ploy, although I've seen some people advocate it. If you make the decision, do it because you are prepared for the outcome...not as a technique to get her to come back. If it backfires, you pay the consequences.
jstx - Thanks for the insights. I really do mean that. I think I'm there but unsure, teetering myself now. I would not use it as a ploy, only for myself. I am not the one pushing for it so all I have to do is allow it to happen. If I do allow it, then the hard decisions come to play, how I act as if 1 - as a good friend, talkative, engaging, giving, 2 - friendly but not a friend but still open, approachable, kind, gentle, 3 - both 1&2 at times, 4 - go dark or grey.
I don't believe 4 is effective, I have yet to see a success story with 4.
I just called WAW business and she was friendly but not overly. She immediately said what's up? So I reassured her I have not forgotten about her or the papers, I explained I'm overwhelmed at work, stressed out, tired, etc. Went down the list of things and asked if I should continue with what I'm doing and she said no.
I asked if the dog was there and I was planning to come by and walk her. Dog was at her apt. I asked if I could have visitation and she said no, she needs another week because it was too traumatic for her. I said ok, well can I walk her on Sat or Sun? She said yes, dog will be there on Saturday when I come in for my appointment.
I switched subjects to the movie Godfather (trying to connect there)and chit chatted about that and she was friendly (more so than at first), how the business was doing, I cracked some funny comments, we chuckled and then said goodbye.
She was fairly friendly and seemed open. I don't know if my comments about papers diffused her pressure, but I think it might have. Like it was a load off her mind she didn't have to ask me about it. Didn't have to feel guilty about it. I guess I just bought myself some more time.
Seattle- Good job!! I think you definitely diffused a bomb/some daggers by being proactive and reassuring her about the papers. You showed her you were thinking of her, and didn't give her a reason to nag. Now you can relax a little with that and deal with some of the other chaos in your life!!
I got all caught up on your sitch the past few weeks last night, and I really do think things are going well for you. I know it's hard to see when you're on the inside. But I think you've found some things that work. You are being consistently loving and thoughtful with W. She seems to be allowing you in a little more each time (actions) but is holding on to those D papers pretty steadfastly (words). I think with buying some time on the D papers you should just keep up what you've been doing. Do you have any new strategies? Any new ideas? I know you are the king of brain-storming and ideas, I'm sure you've got a few up your sleeve.
Actually, that reminds me of something I've been meaning to mention to you. I know that you think a lot about your W and your M and the things that you can do to make things work. One thing I would encourage you to do is make sure you keep track of the ways you are 'showing' her this in relation to the time you spend on it and then keep it in perspective. Okay, I don't think I said that very well... My H is a big time thinker. He is alwyas thinking and spends lots of his time in his own head. I get the feeling you might be like this a little as well? You are always brainstorming and working on ideas, letters, etc. This is great. It's wonderful actually because you are a very thoughful and deliberate person. But, the flip side of that is while you are in your head thinking about us and the M and what not, we have no idea of this. We think you're ignoring us or the issue at hand. Many times throughout our M I would accuse my H of not thinking about me, etc, and he would tell me it was quite the opposite, but at the time, we can't read your minds!! We have no idea what's going on in there!! So, just wanted to share that with you. Don't know if it pertains or not, just my two cents.
Thanks Carrie! You are very right, in the beginning I was so afraid I would mess things up, I was very tentative with any interaction with her, walking on eggshells, and I was not good at showing her through little actions how much I do think about her and us and how to convey that support to her.
You are right, I can communicate in a casual way by sending her a voicemail message with somthing helpful I might have thought about or somthing she should know. This action signals my thought and concern for her. I'll stick with mainly the business and dog helpful things since these are closest to her heart without opening up the tender thoughts about us. That is for later when we get to that point.
I'm getting better at it, but I really need to RELAX and not project this vibe of tenseness or making a statement. I have found if I try and stay relaxed and communicate in a casual way, that she responds much more favorably. I'll stick with non R topics right now, and casually and it might be helping to take the pressure off when we talk.
Thinking back on it, this is how she approached bringing up any problems between us. This was ineffective to me, since I need a face to face with quiet and that itself communicates it is important.
Communicating casually in her method, takes a lot of the stress and guilt factor out of it, like anything she says isn't going to be a catastrophe. I can accept it and we can still go on with our day without her crying and having an emotional breakdown.
Communication through body language is also important to set the vibe. I need to get better, RELAX. Don't be afraid of eye contact especially the kind that really connects and is even a little flirtaious. BREATHE, RELAX, BREATHE, RELAX.
Supposed to go to WAW business but got a vmail from her saying "Oops, I'm a dork I meant to call GF, I'll see you this afternoon." She didn't have to leave a vmail, why did she even leave a message? Maybe she is getting more comfortable around me? Hard not to get hopes up when she does this, got to detach more. Her GF and I have close cell numbers.
Just got back from WAW business, I got laser hair removal from my back! Ouch, ouch! Actually didn't hurt that bad because I'm not a really hairy guy but this has been somthing WAW has wanted me to do for a long time. (Making an effort now!)
One of her GF working asked "How are you doing?" and I said good and we chit chatted. She seemed concerned about me and how I was doing, didn't know if WAW and her talked about somthing? I guess I'll never know.
I walked our dog and gave her treats and reinforced the shake hands trick I taught her last week. She learns so fast! She has got it down. WAW called me on my cell while I was walking to see where I was. I found out when I saw cell when I got back to car, I was only gone 30 min. When I got back to the salon WAW said the little girls of a client in there were "wondering" where dog was. Is this weird she called? More comfortable?
I was pretty relaxed when I spoke to WAW and we had a good conversation, no ice walls, no daggers, no tenseness. I'm thinking just being friendly and relaxed goes a long way. WAW asked about my basketball game (been a long time since she asked a follow up question to somthing I talked about earlier).
We talked about the laser hair removal, I sympathized how much her laser veiricose vein treatment must have hurt when she had it done a year ago and we kinda connected on that shared history together. We talked about the technition who performed and she was from Hawaii where we got M. We also talked about the Money Tree again and helping her bring more cash into the cash register.
She asked what I had brought her in an envelope (email and newspaper article about veiricose veins - I always used to clip newspaper articles out for her - coincidence about the veiricose veins today) and I told her. Showed concern for her and she said thank you. She then said Um, do you have ... and I immediatley ASSumed she was going to ask about D papers and I said I had been busy and not worked on them yet. She said I was going to ask you about the taxes. Dumb Seattle, QUIT ASSuming! I said Oh, I'll call you with that. She playfully gave me an angry look (somthing she would always do with me) and I playfully smiled and said don't give me that look, I don't deserve it, and she smiled and we laughed. Almost flirtatious?
I need to be better at looking her in the eye and connecting and not being afraid of being rejected. I felt her gaze at me a couple times and I should have used the opportunity to connect with one of those come hither looks.
She said I was dressed very Spring like. At least she noticed. I said casually, I'm meeting friends at restaurant/bar up the street to see a Jazz Band (she has been into bands lately, but more alternative/punk bands) and you could meet the owner (she's been trying to network, so this shows effort and concern), want to come? She hesitated for a second like she was thinking and said she kinda had plans. I think she might have even considered it for a second. I think this might be a baby step? I just said, ok, maybe another time, consistently casual.
I asked if I could meet her for coffee tomorrow then and walk the dog? She said not tomorrow. I said ok, how about a day when dog will be at home alone? She said to call her and we could figure it out. At least she is considering now.
Before I left a GF walked up and was talking shop to WAW and I was on other side of counter. To take pressure off WAW, I knelt down petting dog. WAW leaned over counter and was reaching her hands out as if she were going to touch me but touched the counter, three or four times and was saying "Thank you for getting your treatment done, thank you for walking dog, thank you for my emails, thank you for coming in"
I could have used this to connect with her more, more eye contact. I was casual, maybe too casual, and touched her hand and said you're welcome. I'll talk to you later.
Do you need anything at Home Depot? I'm going there now. She actually listed a few things but then said she would go there herself. At least she is considering these things and maybe letting me into her life a little at a time. Man this is slow, it took 5 months of S and OM to get to this point? Geez.
Seattle, I think you did great today. Again, I wouldn't read too much into it, but a good day isn't a bad day--and that counts for something. The only thing I might advise is to still back off a tiny bit. For example, when you ask to come by for the dog again, instead of you picking a specific time, ask her what day would be good to come by. Give her some control from the outset. Hang in there my friend.
wow- some good progress there...I'm glad to hear WAW is being so friendly! Msg for no reason, that's awesome! I totally don't blame you for getting discouraged in your sitch- but right now that feeling may be keeping you from seeing the good things that are starting to happen! If you're getting personal looks and body language from W, that means she's drawing closer. Flirting almost! This is how mine started coming around! I think you are on to something with increasing the no pressure, relax/casual thing.. breed those come hither looks! Yeah, I, too- used to feel like I was walking on eggshells around H- they can sense that tense energy and then are wary with you. Vibes mean everything. But if we act like everything's cool, and we're happy- that gets the best response. I think it's meant a great deal for my sitch that I have been repeteadly cool time after time, even with bomb comments. Remember the way to conquer is to come up alongside.. flow with WAW and use your subtle bright light, wise secret knowledge to turn it your way.
What I've found really helpful in my sitch is also confronting some of the issues WAS has and using that in your DB-- to connect with her and show the new you simultaneously.. Like if one of W's big issues is drinking/smoking? Let her know you're doing other stuff on weekend nights all the time(not at bar) Drop comments here and there about how much better you feel now that you are clearheaded, etc.. Show her that new lifestyle you have with "I" statements. Make it seem like you did it for you and you're really enjoying this- it was long overdue..or something. Sneak these comments in casually- (for example- "Massages are my stress relief now- much healthier, more balanced for me, they're the best here at your place!) Reiterate her viewpoints about it, like this is your value/opinion now too. If W used to say you ignored her b/c of it- comment about how much you enjoy seeing the things she's doing.. (I've even used this in smaller interest areas like music- you're right H- don't know why I never noticed that amazing band before!)
Key to focus on your similarities and commonalities with W. This is basic psychologogy that people are attracted to those they can connect with in their current values, interests, passions- those who have similar lifestyle,etc. Maybe it's about time you check out some punk music?! heehe! Completely mirror her in even small things like behaviorisms, tone of voice, communication style.
Some things I've noticed in your sitch that you could expand upon is where you and W may have differences to bridge that gap.. She seems to be having money issues. So, maybe keep doing small, cheap/free things for her- don't flaunt the money card perhaps. Another thought is the lifestyle difference right now, I think you said W is living more casual/lower standard? Maybe show some ways you are matching her more there- more casual clothes when you see her? Act like you fit with her, as she is now- if you catch what I'm saying. Keep up with the little favors, that seems to be huge- Maybe you could be the one to start bringing her coffee now, and hey did you hear that grunge band playing at club, I heard they were cool, I'm gonna check it out. If this is a total 180 for you, that's awesome- Hey, maybe 24-yr old salon girl likes grunge! You can do this man!!!
Last edited by rj2; 03/14/0403:49 AM.
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
Hey, great DBing there Seattle. You're doing all the right things and yes, I think the glacier is moving ever so slightly!
Quote: I need to be better at looking her in the eye and connecting and not being afraid of being rejected. I felt her gaze at me a couple times and I should have used the opportunity to connect with one of those come hither looks.
Oh... I need to do this too. It works when I do it well. I too have the tense, eggshell, don't want to screw this up vibe sometimes. I know that I do. And it doesn't help matters.
RJ, your advice is excellent. This works very well. Seattle, you asked on my thread what I was doing all that time when H was thinking lots about coming home ... and I was doing a lot of this stuff. It does work. (unfortunately we've have other complications once piecing began)
Just be prepared for the days when it seemingly stops working and try not to let it get you down or bring the eggshell vibe back. This is the hardest part.
I like that she is making the calls. And thanking you. Those are nice little positive signs.
Now... I'm going to go heed all this advice in my own life for a change.
