Not earth shattering but just got a vmail from WAW
Hi its me
Just wanted to say thanks for dinner. I do hope this will get easier and I’m sorry I’m hurting you and I hate this whole scenario. I am also calling to ask a question I know you will know the answer to. Tax question on GST for Canada. If you would give me a call on my cell phone and she left the number and giggled while she left me the number (like I didn't know).
She did say Thank You in that special kind of tone when she would say it to me when she felt really appreciated by me when I did somthing for her in the call above.
I think I'm going to drop by with the appropriate tax forms for her. It would make her life easier and also give me a reason to stop by.
This is after I've been really thinking about her the last couple of days after our big emotional R talk and I think this may be a sign she is really thinking about me too. Like she is reaching out to rebuild friendship like she said she would? She could ask anyone this tax rebate question about Canada. What do you guys think?
Karen - I have been doing those things dropping by her business and she has said she appreciates all the support lately. So I know that works and I will keep doing it to keep up the familiaiarity and contact.
Betsey - That is a good idea. I'm going to listen to those tapes again. He also has What your Father didn't know and Mother couldn't tell you, mars venus but more in depth. Will listen to those.
I realized I've got to quit ASSuming she will want to talk about us and go to MC or whatever. Just act as if I've accepted her decision and despite that I will just continue to be her best friend, act gentle, caring, kind, and friendly. She can trust me with anything, I will not get angry at her or say things to hurt her.
Just focus on the actions steps and action signs and not expect any words to confirm. Quit looking for the words pavlov, down dog.
"Just focus on the actions steps and action signs and not expect any words to confirm. Quit looking for the words pavlov, down dog."
I like that one; I stealing that. We do, we keep sitting up and begging, hoping they notice and throw us a scrap, then whine and wimper when they ignore us.
Like you said, and you are doing a remarkable job, be here friend.
Hey seattle don't get too jealous of the ladies hanging w/TripleJ, seems like we're all over the place LOL
Quote: My challenge though is she doesn't talk. So my job is REALLY TOUGH. I need to initiate, talk a little, listen and understand, but then initiate and draw her out more, and know when it is right to call it BS when it is clearly BS, but in a non-disruptive way (really tricky) while simultaneously understanding and listening and taking all the painful blows she delivers. The really difficult part is calling the BS in an understanding way, but I think I may have a handle on it.
I wanted to comment on this and let you know that unless she is normally a quiet type (part of her personality) than it merely is the sitch and her alien mode.
Truly, my H and I were S for 1 yr when he finally decided to open up and talk to me a little. I tried various different methods to get him to talk R but it didn't work mostly. It's all about their terms, really. When and if they want to talk is when we have to be ready.
If you're already doing the interaction and BS talks w/her now, it's a start and then you draw other things out. In my case, I had to get my H to "trust" me not to always want to talk about R and us (I think). So I started slow and asked about something he liked-work, sports, whatever. And then it grew from there. It took a lot of probing and a lot of effort on my part to bring these things up when I saw him but then he started initiated talks about a past discussion or referred to work or whatever so it's like he now is comfortable talking. From there has grown the R talks and they were going fairly well but H still is not in the right frame of mind to see that things can be different. (cowardly lion-LOL) so we're not ready for anything else as of yet. I guess I've learned that he needs to be ready and will throw tidbits here and there to see if he bites but if not, I don't pressure so I wait on his timeframe.
But, I do have some other means of getting him to talk. Each of us knows our S pretty good and know when it's ready or not. I mean, even though I wait, I can only wait so long so I do other things - note, message, mention about an upcoming deadline, etc.. and then will bring it up appropriately. Like, so what did you think about xxx and try to get a few morsels from him that way. Whatever works.
They've got to be ready to talk. If she brings it up, then let her talk. You can only get so much out of them at one shot so don't try to cram. Put some things on hold and when you end it ask if you can set up a period for the next discussion coz you may have some things that you need to refer back to after this talk or whatever. That might leave the door open a bit. Just some ideas.
I see the baby steps. Take note-thanks for dinner, memories, calling you, etc... We really want to see something huge happen but it won't right away. They're not gonna come right back so accept what they give, no matter how small and work on the next step. You can do it Seattle! Tootles.........
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS. I really appreciate them. Lots of good stuff in here.
She is a clam when it comes to anything serious like feelings, sex, or anything that has to do with how she is percieved. Very self conscious and fears that she will not be loved, appreciated, respected, and honored. VERY BIG for her and that is why I think she is very reluctant to share these thoughts. Doesn't want to run this risk of not being accepted and loved. Anything trivial or light, she is a chatterbox.
After our latest R talk I get the feeling she feels a little less pressure since I think she came away feeling I understood her position (wanting a D) and why and why she is unwilling to try again. I said I would not stand in her way.
But I did want to be friends, see our dog, and it was silly I was prevented from that.
She had been unwilling to even engage in the small talk before. One word answers, I'm busy, REALLY COLD and really no warming. She had totally seperated herself and life from me to the point our connection was lost. I didn't really have a lot of info on her life to bring up in casual conversation. It was one sided. I'm sure you all know what I mean.
When I started helping with her business that opened up some topics, non R related and were helping her (showed care but not in a verbal way). She even said she was suspicious of my motives. I said I did it unconditonally and she accepted, whether she believed it or not, she needs the help. That is when things really started to warm. I had the Vday backslide, but it might be one of those short term backslides and long term progressions.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is still even hard for me at times to feel like she is reciprocating in the small talk. Cold wall even in the small talk. It has gotten a lot better since I've started helping with her business. When I asked her abut the avoiding and shutting me out she used her business as an excuse. When I said but you can spend time with OM but not even talk to me as a friend and I wasn't allowed to see our dog and that was silly, that is when I think she realized I was right. We will see if that changes now that she says she will make an effort to be more available as friends. I will continue the PMA and small talk feel good stuff. I will continue to try and build the friendship but time is running out on me.
We never talk about R unless she brings up D papers. That is when I have been saying I understand why you want this, I don't want this, but I won't stand in your way. Then there is R talk. I feel as if she feels like I am delaying and she even said waiting isn't going to change her feelings. So she feels pressure there.
I don't know if there is another way to relief this pressure other than to give her what she wishes, actually let her start the D process. Like she is finally free and maybe she will warm up more.
Just really confused on my next steps. Trying to make goals but don't know how she would react.
If I try to be her friend only and build the connection through small talk, she might question my motivation and still have pressure or suspicion or whatever.
If I let her file and go it alone, than she might feel relief of pressure. Then what do I do, pull back more and less of best friend and more of acquaintence? I went dark grey before and she shut me out, almost completely, it has taken a lot to get to this point. I don't know if I can stress this enough, SHE IS A MASTER OF DENIAL, uses rebound OM and has admitted it. This is how she has dealt with everything in her life. It gets too hard, so she runs instead of dealing with it.
One of her biggest complaints is that we never did things together. She has wanted to go through this process together because we don't have kids and have seperate accounts etc. and did not want legal fees, she is tight on money. Also I think going through the process together would actually build our closeness and if I am her best friend during this, wouldn't it make it that much harder for her to leave me? So confusing.
I guess I be her close friend as long as I can, build the closeness up as much as possible until somthing else happens. Please provide any opinions, trying to consider everything and anything right now.
Quote: I think going through the process together would actually build our closeness and if I am her best friend during this, wouldn't it make it that much harder for her to leave me? So confusing.
It's kind of funny you say this coz I wonder the same thing sort of. I guess that's not something that Michelle really covers but maybe it's one of those 11th hour saves that happens?
I guess my thoughts on this are that if you keep working on the D together and get all of the paperwork, etc. done and you're doing it in a DB manner, I would think that it would be crippling in the end to see them go through w/it. Almost like a second kick in the pants coz you just don't know what's going through their heads!
I have thought about this as well Seattle but I don't have an answer. I guess my thought on it is being kind through the process and not vindictive but I can't understand the friendship concept during it. Maybe I don't want to understand it either coz I'm not there but it just hasn't hit me.
You can't question them about their time either. She makes time for the OM coz she doesn't have to "pretend" as much? Not pretend in a bad way but it's that novelty thing. With you she expects your reactions and if she hurts you, it hurts her. With OM, she may not know him well enough to see she is hurting him or care about it.
It seems like it's about windows and doors...she has closed most of them on you and is not ready to open them yet. It's a tough pill to swallow but it feels like my sitch a year ago. I felt like I was talking to a wall for a long time. If I was lucky I got an uh-huh or some other one line answer. Now I feel like we're friends and we can talk easier. He still doesn't call me unless it's child related but I feel like the ice is melting.
Hang in there Seattle. One step at a time. Keep the small talk going and see how she reacts to it. Let her think you're being insincere but show her something different. Good luck. Tootles.........
You asked if anyone felt like they were dealing with the same personality type. Yes. I do.
Quote: We never talk about R unless she brings up D papers. That is when I have been saying I understand why you want this, I don't want this, but I won't stand in your way. Then there is R talk. I feel as if she feels like I am delaying and she even said waiting isn't going to change her feelings. So she feels pressure there. I don't know if there is another way to relief this pressure other than to give her what she wishes, actually let her start the D process. Like she is finally free and maybe she will warm up more.
This really hit home for me given my sitch this week.
Maybe some of them do need to file the D to relieve some pressure.It doesn't sound like you're applying pressure, but sounds like she is still feeling it (what my H says too). Sounds like there is some warming there.
I too am torn about the friend thing. I just don't know. Friendly, sure, but I think that may be all I could do emotionally. We'll see, both of us.
Sometimes I don't know about the friend thing either. Laurie said it is hard for men to get that women want to feel like you're their best friend first before any romantic interests redevelop, like they will trust you as friends first, then when they feel comfortable, let down the guard a little more. Nothing verbalized, OF COURSE, lest they actually admit they are reconsidering.
So messed up, and takes so long. Maybe thats why she feels it would be so much effort, she sees that far ahead when thinking about reconsidering or reconciliation. At least she has thought about it I guess.
Good point about OM and they don't have the stress and tension that they have to face with us. That is MY JOB to not have that stress and tension so they feel comfortable being around us and don't feel any pressure. Then there is no reason not to be around us more and more and more and more. NOTHING VERBALIZED, OF COURSE.
Seattle, it's been awhile since I've caught up on your thread, so pardon me for my meandering comments here...
Quote:
She later said she was PMSing and shouldn't talk to me when she is so emotional. Ironic I feel that is when she opens up to me the most, so do I contact her at these times even when she says not to?
These seem to be the times when W is most open and honest and forthcoming with me as well. Hmmmm. A female opinion on this one?
I generally leave opportunities for R talk up to my W. I'll only try to nudge into it if it's been several weeks or longer, or if we're going through something that's somehow pertinent the R's existence (like when she finally decided it was time to sign the S papers). I find if I let her do the majority of the R talking when it happens, she reachs a point sometimes where she's no longer talking so much about her choices or decisions so much as she is using me as a mirror, a way to get a read on her own thinking, and it's in those rare moments where I feel like she is completely trusting with me, completely open.
I really liked Betsey's sales analogy...
Quote:
"My answer is NO until I have sufficient information to convince me to make this a YES."
and I've learned in the past two months just how right she is about this...
Quote:
So just keep validating and understanding. We women LOVE men who can do this.... and a secret? (Please, yaya sisterhood don't beat me up for sharing this.) It's really touching when we know it takes you out of your comfort zone--it really shows a commitment to caring.
I think you want to be careful not to overanalyze WAW's feelings. Part of really listening to someone you really care about is being able to listen through the words (while at the same time still paying attention to the words), to just feel how that person feels talking to you--I know it may sound a little metaphysical, but there's some truth there that's important.
Seattle, I think its good that you seem to be achieving more detachment too, but don't let that push the two of you apart. The detachment benefit is being able to stay calm and supportive when they start crazymaking, detachment is not about not caring about them. Keep up the PMA and the friendship too. The friend thing is SO important. Good friends are almost as hard to find as good spouses, and good friends can also morph into great spouses.
DBing is not easy, its not always intuitive, but the more I learn it, the better I get, the more babysteps I see,... but, most importantly, the better I feel about myself. And with that I am more able to give to my W freely, with hope instead of expectation.
I think you've really been doing well with everything so far, so keep up the good work you've accomplished so far, and find something new to do better as well!
I needed BOTH!!!