"I really feel like WAW has made up her mind and she is very inflexible and won't change it or even consider the thought of talking, or working on it to EVEN SEE if it is possible to change her position."
They are that way, aren't they? And when we look back, we see this was often the case. But we wanted so to appease and to not make waves and try to please them, we gave in, much too often it seems. But I thought I was doing what was best for the family and supporting her, but I was being taken advantage of.
Glad you reached "that" place. I know I am a long, long way from there. I want so to be angry with her for being so selfish but I am so, so sad for these children who see the sadness in me and do not understand this. S3 wants to know where Mommy's stuff is?
They know exactly what they are doing. Though we have no idea, whatever they are seeking is FAR more important than anything else and anything we can imagine. Because to us, there is NOTHING more important than family.
We know you cannot, though try as you might and strangely despite how terrible they've hurt us, we still want them in our lives, draw her back. You can become a better person and offer a better life.
"Just believe what I say already, I'm not doing all this as an act."
They will never believe what we say, "This still hasn't changed and it will never change," so all we have is to show them CONSISTENTLY and I said, not for them, but for US.
Thanks Bwriter. We all need to keep our focus on our goals, goals for ourselves to be good people and not let their negativity effect how we conduct ourselves and our lives.
Being in that place is better in some respects but not so in others. Although I still feel sadness at times and go back to those feelings of resentment, most of the time I have let it go now and try not to let it control me or effect how I act. I try to control myself. No one else and no one else to control me.
for some reason I missed this post yesterday. I wish I did read it cause this post actually just opened the doors back up for me.
My W too has a "new" life that does not include me, or she tries so hard to not include me. But the fact of the matter is, she will never be rid of me. We have kids together.
Quote: I realized that she is choosing to run away from me, avoid me, and shut me out because she thinks that I will hurt her again if she allows me another chance and it is not worth the time and effort because she has immersed herself in this "new life" and doesn't have time for me. Her statement of Who knows, if we try again it may be WONDERFUL, but it also might NOT. I'm not willing to try again. Her eyes full of tears.
Now, I know that here on the BB all of us have in some way or another similar traits in our sitchs, and this one is similar to us. This is exactly what she is going through. I believe she is fighting herself, not knowing what to do, but choosing right now the easy way out, to try and ignore everythiong about me and live the "new" life.
Trouble is, and this is where it may be different between us, she does not know what the impact and consequences of these choices are actually doing to her and others around her, especially her own children.
Her drive to ignore her own pain and anger does not give her the ability to see reality. and that is a shame. almost like she is trying to create an alternate world for herself.
Reassessing is what I do every single morning and night. Figure out what role I have played in my life, what I did and did not accomplish. And then do something about it to better me.
I am a much happier man today because of my reassessment of myself.
But since this is your thread, I should stop talking about my sitch and address what you wrote.
There are NOT many people who have achieved detachment and are still able to DB with the goal of one day having a better R with that same person. I know you have achieved this from your posts. The peacefulness that it brings and the capabilities it provides are so wonderful. I don't think I could have made it without those things. We are better people today because we are able to detach from the sitch, and look at it from every angle, instead of only a few.
and you might want to stretch that spandex your wearing out a little, I think its cutting off circulation to your head if you think I'll let you get away with putting Ben Gay in mine. I can't believe I just wrote that.
Triple J
Things were different then. All is different now. I tried to explain, somehow..........
Eddie Vedder (Pearl Jam)
I've gathered my thoughts and I'm going to try and give the condensed versions, stick with me.
Progress update from dinner with WAW. Met at her favorite restaurant, my idea. Was looking good, had PMA sky high, was babbling brooke, and acted as if. Had a great dinner, was connecting as friends again, excellent eye contact, good body language, asked her advice on business issues with clients (she had some good ideas and I complimented her, 180 for me), told her of my many new career opportunities and asked her advice (again, she had some good ideas and I complimented her). Talked about the Academy Awards (I never watched before). All big 180s for me.
She is certainly more talkative around me now, shares more details, she giggled and even laughed sincerely. She even said after dinner that she thought we were doing well as friends and she had a good time. ALL POSITIVES.
She kept talking about her trip to Vancouver so I had to ask who she went with. She went with GF from work for an industry convention. BIG WHEW. She didn’t go with OM.
Anytime she shares some details with me I'll take it as a sign she is comfortable sharing more with me so I will take the bait and bite, even if I think there might be a barbed hook, she obviously wants to talk about it. You guys agree?
She even mentioned she remembered how much fun we had going to Vancouver together. Another HUGE POSITIVE she is actually remembering fun stuff we did together.
Of course she had to mention that I went to my favorite bar there too much and that really bothered her. She went there with her GF though! Later on in the evening she was saying she had forgiven me "in essense" but also mentioned fights from our past that I had long forgotten. She has done this multiple times now. I have felt although she wants to forgive me she is still holding onto the resentment and the reasons for which and hasn't really let go. Maybe getting better now. She has downplayed our love and time together as "good times". Does she really believe thats all it was?
She has always had a problem with me smoking and drinking too much in her opinion. I have recently quit for myself and it has really helped me grow. When I told her I understood what she was saying before and how it clouded my judgement and validated, later she said "if you really have quit" comment. So she is skeptical. Funny thing is she said this in the context of saying other things about how she has recognized I've made some really big changes and I have grown a lot. So she will say she recognizes these changes (POSITIVE RIGHT?) but then will reveal she is skeptical by that comment.
She brought up D papers again and then said she didn't want to talk about R because she doesn't want to cry. I gently asked if we could talk about R otherwise we would never. Does she really think she rush this and can jam this thing through hastily with no reconsideration and time like everything else she has done in her life?
She finally agreed to talk about R. I know it is against common DRing but how else can I deal with it? Some people need to be confronted with things or otherwise they just hide from them, Kinda like what Underdog was saying yesterday. I think this was effective with her since no one else asks her to really consider these things. Also, she knows what is fair and what isn't. She knows her recent behavior isn't fair.
She later said she was PMSing and shouldn't talk to me when she is so emotional. Ironic I feel that is when she opens up to me the most, so do I contact her at these times even when she says not to?
I did a lot of listening and understanding. One of the BIG PROBLEMS I have is I feel so rushed when we are talking about R. She gets all tense, crying, and her instinct is to run and I feel like the Jeopordy clock and music in the background. I told her this made me uncomfortable and feel pressured and I'm really trying to just say the right things and it is difficult for me.
She listened and understood. She is so impatient with me at times because I think it is hard to deal with the guilt and she wants to just run away and avoid it. Avoid me and not have any contact with me to shut it out of her mind so she doesn't feel it. I said this to her, maybe I shouldn't have, but that was how I felt and she actually responded by slowing down and allowing us more time to talk openly. ANOTHER POSITIVE?
She actually said earlier she couldn't handle the emotional ups and downs anymore and it was really getting to her. Again I listened, understood and said I didn't want that anymore either and I want to the pain to end too.
Her dagger throwing had decreased dramatically until that night. When asked if she wanted to be married, she told her friend that as someone getting out of one, I just want the next one to be right. I don't get the sense she talks AT ALL about even CONSIDERING the possibility of reuniting. Who knows, maybe she does with her sister, I don't know.
She said she wants this D and she isn't going to change her mind. She really just wants to be friends. I validated as best I could but had to say that I really felt she wasn't allowing us the chance to be friends. I said I felt she was avoiding me at all costs and we didn't have any time or chance to be friends. She said she is totally stressed with her new business and says she stretched in too many directions and doesn't have any spare time for anyone, so I'm not alone there. I listened and validated.
I said I understood but you can spend time with OM and you avoid me at all costs? I said it is silly I'm not allowed to see our dog. Its silly I'm not allowed much contact with you, I'm trying to be your friend but I can't when I'm shut out and avoided. At the end of the night she actually said she would make it a PRIORITY to spend more time with me. This TOTALLY SUPRISED me. Got to be another positive. Maybe this gentle confrontation thing (sometimes strong) works with a the running away type. I guess I can only call them on the stuff that really is silly from the persepctive of what they want? In this case friendship?
Lots more happened but thats enough for now. Would really appreciate some opinions on this. Thanks everyone!
First of all, R talk isn't bad--it's only something to avoid when you know that the results will take you further away from your goals. They must happen periodically (at least in my opinion), but you can and should work through them with the intent of understanding vs. attempting to be understood.
That being said....
I see a very successful progression between you.
One thing that pops up to me which I want to share is something we discuss in sales training. Actually, you can apply this to dog obedience or parenting.... We humans tend to say NO and NEVER and I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND when, in fact, we are basically feeling something very opposite. That feeling being: "My answer is NO until I have sufficient information to convince me to make this a YES."
Humor me and take the observation for awhile because it ain't over until the fat lady sings. It's a new day, and I still don't see her--do you?
The final coup? She discussed spending more time with you. Even if she is agreeing so you get to play with the dog, if she was really dead set against you, she wouldn't agree to this.
So just keep validating and understanding. We women LOVE men who can do this.... and a secret? (Please, yaya sisterhood don't beat me up for sharing this.) It's really touching when we know it takes you out of your comfort zone--it really shows a commitment to caring.
Time for a group hug....
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: We humans tend to say NO and NEVER and I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND when, in fact, we are basically feeling something very opposite. That feeling being: "My answer is NO until I have sufficient information to convince me to make this a YES."
Wow, Betsey that is great to point out! Ok, all of us need to remember that for our sitches... What you do can change things in time, for sure! Butterfly effect.
I see the warming in your encounter too! There are baby steps to chalk up, for real. W wants to spend more time with you is HUGE. Actions before words... 'Discontent' is coming out from the core right now, but look to the little signs showing otherwise for indications. You mention W is starting to see changes in you, but not sure. This is the start of the progression. It has already begun. IMHO, just keep showing more of the "new you" in her most resistant complaint areas- like the drinking/smoking thing.... Does W know on Sat nights you're playing sports now instead of being at the bar? Or something like that. Let it show through in many ways. It's expected for WAS to be doubtful, critical and cynical for a while... may take longer if you have lesser contact, but have the secret wisdom that you're on the road! I smile now when H says his silly little comments, or doubts( outwardly validate and then soothe it away, but knowing deep down it's just the fear talking makes it a piece of cake) I think speaking in W's language helps it along too, keep up with the emotional perspective. Use some of her phrasing, completely understand her. What are her modes of speaking - does she like analogies? If so, start using some in her interest areas. Last night H and I were finding new understandings between each other through music and martial arts/ eastern philosophy. Different mediums work wonders! So, use what's appropriate to W's interests. And here's another thought... did you ever cry in front of W before- would that be a 180? I'll post more later- these are my first thoughts. Way to go on expanding through another visit, though. WAY TO GO!
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
I more than appreciate the insights on your sitch on my thread, don't ever be shy about that, I consider it an honor that you would share your experiences with me. I really do mean that. I think that is what this BB is about, sharing experiences with each other so we can all benefit and learn.
Quote: Now, I know that here on the BB all of us have in some way or another similar traits in our sitchs, and this one is similar to us. This is exactly what she is going through. I believe she is fighting herself, not knowing what to do, but choosing right now the easy way out, to try and ignore everythiong about me and live the "new" life.
Trouble is, and this is where it may be different between us, she does not know what the impact and consequences of these choices are actually doing to her and others around her, especially her own children.
Her drive to ignore her own pain and anger does not give her the ability to see reality. and that is a shame. almost like she is trying to create an alternate world for herself.
That is exactly it, running away because it is easier for them to ignore it and cram it down than to face it now. They don't realize it only comes out more powerfully when it does come out. Thats why I think my WAW cries so much when I see her, too hard to surpress any longer.
You're right about your children. It is necessary for you to have consistent contact. That is what is difficult for me because she has been so successful at creating this "new life" without me. That is why I had to confront her and call it like it is, silly that she won't even let me see the dog, silly she won't allow herself to see me. I was surprised she agreed and says she will make it a priority.
I guess I just keep trying and testing and pulling back when needed. Do the dance, I'm a good dancer now, actually always have been. If anyone has opinions on how I can keep contact and closeness to her when she says she has so little spare time, it would be much appreciated.
Other than ask her to make it important and put in some effort, nothing really has been successful. I'll let you guys know how our next interaction goes, if she really is making it a priority as she says.
I do need to reassess and everyday is not a bad idea. I haven't been as good at this as I would like.
on another note, i think the circulation in my brain is constricted enough by all the WAW interaction, ha.
Big thanks to both of you, has helped with my PMA. I agree with you on the sales training, she is still in the decision making mode and is teetering back and forth, whether she wants to admit it or not. She just tries to force herself to go the other route, like holding onto these excuses and reasons so long ago. I just have to have that knowledge and work around it like RJ said. Our secret, I know better what she is trying to do, I just compensate for it in my actions.
I agree on the R talk, I have been reluctant to ask for it or initiate but if I don't, she just avoids it and thinks she can jam this through without facing the pain. It just can't happen that way, its not fair to either of us.
Betsey you are right, I do a good job of understanding and I need to do more of it and be better at it. My challenge though is she doesn't talk. So my job is REALLY TOUGH. I need to initiate, talk a little, listen and understand, but then initiate and draw her out more, and know when it is right to call it BS when it is clearly BS, but in a non-disruptive way (really tricky) while simultaneously understanding and listening and taking all the painful blows she delivers. The really difficult part is calling the BS in an understanding way, but I think I may have a handle on it.
Anyone else feel like they are dealing with this personality type?
Speaking in her language and using her words if a great idea RJ. I have noticed it really works. She feels understood. Maybe not repeat the exact same sentence, but use KEY PHRASES that she has used in the past. They relate and feel as if you are on the same page, looking in the same direction.
I noticed using analogies works really well too. Like when I spoke about my clients and work issues, she related well. It was also an opportunity to share details of me (gets her closer), ask her opinion (feels valued), take her advice (feels valued), and no R pressures but talking about somthing meaningful. I will try and think of more analogies to talk about.
My goal is to be her best friend and for me as well as for her. Be my best friend first, then hers. Showing kindness and concern while not being in my comfort zone and her knowing it is really difficult for me.
I have noticed she says Thank You in that special tone of voice she used to use when I did somthing for her and she felt really appreciated in the past. I'll keep noticing those little things. This is so tough, I just want my WIFE back. I promise to be a good boy, and the BEST FRIEND and husband EVER.
I definitely see a lot of positives that you pointed out.
From my experience, you have to let them do what they think is right. They don't know what they want. They just seem to know that they are hurting and something triggered it off. They will grab at everything to keep the pain fresh in our mind regardless of how small and insignificant it seems to be. They focus on negative which helps them stay away from us and not too much on the positives.
I'm gonna say that it's great she commented about seeing you more often but I'm also gonna tell you that I wouldn't count on it-UNLESS she truly meant it. I agree w/what UD said about the NO, NEVER attitude and here they are still questioning themselves and this sitch.
My H has kept his distance from me for a long time in regards to being w/me. It's exactly what has been said. They can't stand the pain, guilt, etc when they are w/us. And heaven forbid if you want to talk R! That makes it all the more reason for them not to see you. My advice is wait and see. If she is genuine she'll let you know. If not, give it time and if things are still moving along well, then ask her to lunch or something different in a month or 2.
One quick thing you may be able to do could be to stop by her shop? Maybe stop in and see how things are going-even for a few minutes. Take her a coffee or something and tell her she's always saying how busy she is so you though she could use a 5-10 min break and would give her a refresher and then leave. It will leave you feeling good and possibly her questioning. Might work, might not but if you do it just because, then she should be more tempted to see you again coz you're not putting the pressure on.
I know you want to see her but she can't right now and it stinks but that's how they are. They are only thinking of themselves. Selfish as it is, may be better in the end when you've given her this space and she realizes what kind of H you really are and how you've changed. Well my 2 cents. Gotta run. You've done well. Tootles..........
A woman who doesn't talk? What?????? Is she an alien?
Just kidding....
Think of her as you would any other shy person... shy people are actually my specialty in life. My closest friends were the wallflowers, and I always felt intrigued by that notion--enough to make them come out of their shells.
I'm pretty sure that you know a few topics that are near and dear to her heart (note: probably NOT WWF, beer parties or the Sonics). Ask her questions. And concentrate on listening to her answers. Nod your head, smile, affirm her.
John Gray, move over.... cause I'm plopping my big butt on your couch! (Have you read Mars/Venus? Lots of great pearls you might be able to use with her there.)
Seriously (again), if you can focus on just a few topics, it will show her that you are listening to her... and keep up with her on them.
You said her anger and blows are dissipating... to what do you attribute this observation? What are you doing or not doing... saying or not saying?
You're getting somewhere here, Seattle... stick with this. She's not as far gone as some, so there's hope.
If you have a party, I'll fly there and join you. I'm hip to attend any function where guys cook... count me in!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
