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They were books that our MC suggested to us.

I saved DB, DR, 5LL, "changing yourself and everyone around you" and "its not you, its the dishes" for myself and myself only.

I kind of knew that as I asked the question. So its good to have it reinforced.

I'm stacking up the reading at the moment so its more a case of when I read it than if.

That's a good suggestion about the weekend retreat. I found that an 1hr means we just seem to be starting to talk abiut something signufucant when its then time to wait a week. I will certainly look into it especially if there is an equivalent this side of the Atlantic.

"They were books that our MC suggested to us."

The key is this...did your W set up the MC appointment and was actively trying to save the M? If not, then she's just going through the motions to say that she "tried".

The books only work when they actually WANT to do the work.

Unfortunately, Essential Experience is Not presently conducted in the UK. It's now in Philadelphia only, but I sure hope they'll expand again. (I did it in Vermont, H did it in NH and friends of ours did EE in the Sierras.)

Since I've been to several of these types of things, I can tell you that none are as good as EE, but one might be comparable. It's called "LifeSpring".

I have NOT been to it, ironically, but I know some EE grads who said good things about Lifespring.

Since EE is my reference point, and it's fellow EE participants who say Lifespring is worthwhile, AND I trust their judgment, I'm deferring to them. IF I could not do EE, I'd sure give Lifespring a shot. That is of course all about your personal individual growth, NOT solely your marriage issues.

For working only on your marriage, you need a marriage retreat or workshop.

At a GOOD weekend long workshop, you would identify the problem(s) you have to work on, you'd get tools for working on them, and then you'd get a support system for your success and accountability in the future.

To Stay On Track, b/c sometimes getting on track isn't the problem; staying on track is.

Know what I mean?

For marriages in trouble, Retrovaille is probably the best weekend retreat around.

Yes There ARE Retrovaille weekends in the UK and Europe (I looked it up) but am not sure where you live or how often. In the USA, in big cities they host Retrovaille weekends monthly or more.

When we were first piecing, my MIL got terminal cancer and I KNEW we were headed into a storm, although not one of our making. I knew times would get hard and sure enough, within a few weeks, H began to backslide and get curt with me. I almost thought he'd blame ME for his mom's cancer; he got SO sad and angry, etc.

Anyhow, that is when I suggested we go to Retrovaille b/c I said "I can't see us getting thru this without new tools. Besides, my "marriage efforts" reserves are very low" (b/c DBing takes a lot of emotional energy and work, as YOU know,)
I could tell we were not going to make it without professional help.

This was in late July of 2008. H agreed to "doing something to help us". So I looked up Retrovaille in our area & hoped they'd have one "in time" and hoped it would not be too far, or too inconvenient for h's work schedule, ETC. I felt it was an urgent need but I dreaded the long wait...

They listed the 8th of August weekend as the next one. It was IN our area, and oh, btw, that was our wedding anniversary.

Gee, sometimes the universe is very clear...

Thanks 25

I think I need to find one for me. One to save the M might come later IF my W has any kind of thaw that means she can shift from her 'there's no point, I don't love you enough to make it worth trying' position.

This is taking a lot of energy and gives me enormous respect for you guys who have stuck at it. I know I should detach but its really hard to watch her spinning even further away from me, and although I don't think there is an A yet I sense its only a matter of time - and she wouldn't see it as an A

I've read so much stuff now that says I need to work on my stuff - which I agree with because I don't like what I've become and what that did to my R - its just hurtful in the way this plays out where both of us are in the position that this is 100% my fault.

I read on someone's thread the quote 'the grass is greener where you water it'. I really like this because neither my W or I did anywhere near enough to tend our grass and now she is looking to the neighbouring meadows where she thinks it will be greener (not helped by her mate who is encouraging this view)

Sorry I think I'm just venting now. I've spent years bottling up emotion and now I can't seem to for even 24hrs

That's kind of odd to say Jim. I mean, you have a history that includes a lot of blurting out crap. The things you said (But can't quite recall, except it was "awful") when her dad died, OR the way you hounded her about her ex boyfriends...man, that was about the nuttiest thing I've read from an otherwise normal sounding man in a long time.

So "bottling up" might not be the phrase you need here...

Keep pondering that b/c MAYBE what you are doing is the same old thing.

Maybe You are not bottling up, maybe you are still "blurting out the same unprocessed unexamined angry or petulant commentary",

only to fall over yourself apologizing the next week/month, or whenever you realize you blundered and hurt her, again.

Here is an example of what I mean. You mention in your earlier posts that you were "horrible" to her when she had a drink with an ex. When her dad died, you said your "sense of inadequacy reared its head" and you were the "opposite" of supportive to her at a very important time in her life, AND in front of her family...

^^^that was some time ago. But then you wrote:

Two weeks ago she had a bad day and did the practical support rather than the emotional support. I sensed I had done something wrong but didn't say anything.

Super vague ^^ pseudo admissions of fault here^^. You did the "practical support rather than the emotional support"??? What does that mean? When you "sense" you did something wrong (or in this case, dong nothing when your partner just said she had a bad day)
maybe you can ASK HER how you can be supportive to her.
.

Instead I festered til bedtime wheb I had a bit of an outburst about her not loving me.

JIM, look honestly at this^^. It was your reaction to HER having a bad day...

Jim, you do see that your reaction was remarkably self centered, right?

Imagine YOU had a hard day at work, then came home to someone who gives you nothing but their needs, (even though it's you who had the hard day).

Imagine that they wait hours off by themselves, while YOU deal with your problems, (alone, again). Then your partner has an "outburst" and bludgeons you with more of HER needs.

Jim be honest. Does she gets any needs met from you now?

Surely there must have been a time she did, unless she's one of those rescuer types who look for men who are really hard to love or connect with, and those women want to "break thru to the treasure on the other side"...

often to find that 1) there is NO treasure on the other side, just a lot more neuroses & needs of theirs...
and or
2) the wall is too high to ever find out what might be on the other side.


She said she didn't want to talk about and the next day was frosty. In the evening once the kids were in bed she went to a friends.when she got home she said something about me not asking if she had a nice time to which I replied 'why would i ,

Why would you? Because Jim, that would show some interest in her AND awareness of how wildly inappropriate you were the evening before, that's why (Just a wild guess)


you probably spent the whole evening complaining about me' a row followed.

Well Of course a "row followed".

So Jim, what are you going to DO to stop yourself from more of that^^ odd behavior? ( I can't see how you could do more to push her away...).

I have one more question I hope will Not offend you, but it's pretty necessary to ask, I think. It's this:

Do you have a disorder of some kind, like maybe Asperger's?

I think you miss a lot of clues about what your wife needs AND what is expected of you emotionally. And it does not seem to be changing at all for the better.

Jim you need a good T or IC to help you see these patterns AND you need it soon.
I don't know if this marriage can be saved OR if it should be.

But a LOT of your "marital" problems stem right from You & your unusual neediness. It seems hard for you to control, let alone bottle up. So let's avail yourself of all the resources you can, asap. No more delays.

I don't think you hold back much b/c if you do, I cringe to think what you are actually filtering out. A lot of what you blurt out is hurtful to your marriage.

What I mean is, IF this ^^ is you "bottling up emotions", that means you are restraining yourself from saying things that are Worse than these ^^ things.

SO, what are you going to DO THIS MONTH to start the changes you want?

25, my IC asked the same question about aspergers 2 days ago. So no im not offended just a little taken aback as its not something thats ever been mentioned before this week. Im trying to work out what to do with that or even whether there is a way to find out if its true (not that its an excuse but it might make a difference to what I need to do)

I do know that I couldn't have been worse on the weekend a couple of weeks ago where this all came out - I got into an unbelievably negative spiral which I could break until I had exacted the maximum damage - only then could I see what I was doing. I realise that I took her bad day and made it all about me and how my needs weren't being met and that led what were growing doubts on her part to a position of 'I just can't do this anymore'

Last night I made a similar mistake in that when she got in from work, I was playing with the kids and she just got angry - she didn't say anything but I could see it. I didn't say anything because I thought I was giving her space when a bit later she went out and I thought about it and realised they I probably should have said something like 'I can see that something is upsetting you - is there anything I can do to help'

Maybe that's not the right phrasing but hopefully you get the idea and someone can tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree

By practical stuff I simply mean that where we normally split chores, childcare etc. I went and did all of it so she wouldn't gave to worry about it.

I will look into travelling to Philadelphia and if I can get the money together will go. I don't like how I react to things and when I say I keep stuff in I really mean it, when my wife and I (rarely) argued I have to filter out the first dozen things I think of because they are just spiteful and I don't actually agree with it, so I don't say it but this means there are long pauses and my W knows me well enough to know that that &%#@ is going through my head. She just doesn't believe me that its not how I feel.

I've got some serious issues but unless big emotions come into play Ive got good at workarounds. At work people think that I'm relaxed, self assured and confident. At home where I have to (and want to) feel feelings is where I struggle.

This is my 2nd significant relationship (the previous lasted 9 years and I ended it (whole other story which I don't know if its relevant)) but my W is the first person I've truly let in and the problem is what she found is not very nice. Because as I'm really starting to realise (thanks in no small part to the feedback on here) I'm just a really selfish person.

Take the 'hounding' I was so wrapped up in how rubbish I felt about myself and how I had been hurt that it didn't even occur to me how hard it was for her until she asked me to stop hurting her.

I don't know if this means the right thing to do is to say that I've hurt my W enough and that actually I should be doing everything I can to make the D as quick and as painless as possible for her. Certainly that is the one thing that would be unselfish as its as far away from what I want as it gets.

I will get me sorted regardless as this mindset is no way to live a happy life - If I really think about it then i think the scorecarding is a way for me to find an excuse so I don't have to face up to the reality of how awful Ive been and I should accept that I'm my own worst enemy for getting what I want.

Is there a way to correct last nights mistake? I could ask her about it but not sure if that's just going to reinforce the negative. I was thinking something along the lines of 'yesterday evening when we were in the lounge I felt like something was upsetting you. I didn't say anything because I wanted to respect your space but I realise that may have felt like i didnt care. I did and I do and would like to know what was upsetting you if you are willing to share that with me. If you woukd rather not then thats ok'

Right now I still want to save my M - there was a reason I let her in in the first place. But I don't want her to have a relationship with the me she has had to endure.

Actions, actions, actions is what matters now. Just need to work out some specifics rather than vague generalities about improving myself.

Some specific actions then

- I will keep up the IC but add to my goal of improving my self esteem, being less self-centered
- I will keep on top of all the housework because a tidy house is a lower stress house and I can feel good about that
- I will read every book that has been recommended to me
- I will starting saving the $2000 ish dollars its going to cost to go to EE.
- I will say something supportive if I can see my wife is upset or sad and not worry about the potential for conflict
- I will cook because I find this relaxes me.
- I will go for a run at least twice a week.
- I will make sure that on all the nights my W has the kids I will be out with friends as I will enjoy this and it will give her the space she requires.
- I will look for a volunteering opportunity that means I'm doing something for someone else.
- I will listen to the song 'All about you' by mcFly everyday because this reminds me how I behaved when my W fell in love with me.
- and I will write a letter to my W acknowledging that I have been a selfish p%#&%, giving a fulsome apology for this and the hurt it has caused, and further that I can understand why she feels the way she feels. I think that if I leave it there without promises or discussion of the future then she might see it for what it is, a genuine and heartfelt apology.

Jim, I just caught up on your thread. I don't think you are ready to do this right, or even if it can be done right. You do not - and will not - understand "why she feels the way she feels" because only she can do that (NO MINDREADING). If she chooses to share with you, great. I suspect it will be a long while before that is the case.

Don't want to be a downer. But start working DR basics. Detach. Show love by saying nothing or only responding with validation. There's a validating words/phrases list around here somewhere. Anyone got a link? Get busy using it. Do the work that you need to do on you.