Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers DBing after WAW then reactive EA by me...NO QUIT!

I just posted on your old thread...

here it is and it's after you said you "have no time to GAL"...


"I have more to read on your thread but wanted to comment on this^^^ before I forget.

TO re-cap----You are a teacher with the summer OFF, correct?

Okay...Just so you know, you have more time to GAL than 90% of the people on this board.

And without GAL, you will NOT detach, which will lead to more bad choices.

Without GAL, you will NOT change or become a man only a fool would leave, which really is your goal.

Yes, GAL is that important. We hammer it here a lot, b/c we know it works.


For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids including a baby so it's hard for me to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL.

Inertia is actually the greatest enemy to GAL. It really is part of how you got here in the first place.

Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me.

(Plus, like you I needed to lose weight as I'd just had our last child. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, long LONG cold winters).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I truly liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty & ignoring them.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group

Took a class in Conversational French

Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

A spa weekend? A long massage for her and then a manicure/pedicure?

Something just for her and or her and a bff.

But I read ahead and know you said "epic fail" b/c I guess you got her nothing from you, correct?

Why? Inertia? Paralysis? NOT choosing anything IS a choice and I sense quite a bit of that from you in the marriage. Sort of like giving up a MONTH into this...

see my signature block b/c I was at this for 2 years...and did a LOT of work on myself, and imo, I was not a bad wife. I was part of a marriage that had gone from being a great one (and I mean that, we once had a GREAT marriage, the envy of many, and we achieved a lot on our own as a young couple, without help from anyone)...but his medical career was unrelenting, we bit off more than I could chew for sure, and I became resentful, and h became more career oriented b/c that's where he got positive feedback and also b/c he's a bit of a workaholic.

MY role became the judger and I judged him harshly and was almost chronically mad at him.

In your situation, HERE You have owned your part but now all you speak of is HER anger at you.

What have you owned up to, with HER? And have you REALLY or did you say it a few times and then leave the room or hope "it's over now, right? I mean, I SAID I was sorry!"

Some folks do that and expect a 2 sentence apology spoken once, should end any further talk. OTOH I also think at some point the past has to be in the past.

Our marriage vows said "from this day forward", for a reason & I think it's brilliant. At SOME point you both have to put your dukes down and being NOW and stay in the present, building for tomorrow.

I DO have hope for you b/c your wife expected a grand gesture gift from you which means to me, she wants you to earn her trust and respect (and overt love) back!

Otherwise she'd be indifferent AND OR have already filed. She is not indifferent and she has not filed.

She wants and needs you to change and for the marriage dynamic to change. I know YOU want it to change too and that is why you are here.

But yes you the LBSer have to take the first step and the second step and the third and the next 2503 steps....WHY?

2 reasons:

1) b/c you admit for the most part, YOU have failed her as a h. So you need to change your husbanding ways, and

2) you are here working on your m and she is not. We cannot help her, we cannot advise her on how to change. We can only help YOU and you can only help YOU and you only control you so don;t bother "helping" your wife to change.

YOU CHANGE YOU and the dynamic changes by definition; by its very nature and she will change too....absolutely.

SO stay in your sandbox for now. GAL and Detach and become a bit mysterious.

As she sees you becoming THE MAN she has always wanted you to become and then fears that you might actually BE "HIM" but for some other woman....

then we'll be here to guide you into piecing, in a smart steady way.

So why not get her the grand gesture gift while she's gone and say "I'm sorry I was confused about what you needed for your B-D b/c I have not listened to you as well as I should have for some time. NO matter what happens, THAT will change. But I'd ask that you help me with this b/c I know you are not the same woman you were 5 years ago and we are both changing so if you could let me know what you need or want, it would help me gain some clarity."

AND OR something like "as you know, I'm lousy at mind reading so if you could clarify things as we go, it would help ME to be better at this".

Also, NO woman is unmoved by the loving interactions of her children with their father. Be the best dad You can be and don't worry about "showing" her. The kids will tell her the fun things they did with you. Don't point it out or appear to.

Also, why do you keep saying you want "a minimum of 50% custody"? I'm a L though not in Washington and no expert and this is NOT legal advice.

But I'd be shocked if you got "more" than half custody. Why would you?

Is she in any way "Unfit"? And I'm not counting the weird outbursts in front of the kids at this point b/c I don't know how bad it was or what they saw or what is provable.

But you may need to accept that best case scenario, you'll get half custody which is what most courts favor. Usually one parent has to overcome the presumption in favor of joint physical custody if they want more than 50% physical custody

(not the same as "joint custody" in general, which isn't related to physical custody but joint decision making about religion, school, health issues, etc) Understand?

And what does your wife do for her work and what are her hours like?

And what would SHE SAY about you and the marriage if she were here now?

Which of those things are you working on? B/C once a problem is being worked on, it's not a "problem" anymore; it's being handled.

SO when she points out something you are already working on, say "working on it, no need to revisit that, so let's focus on the present".

OR tell her something along the lines of "need to stay in the moment and not rehash the past, b/c [you] are creating a better future for [you] and the family."

She can keep carping but at some point it's hard to scream in an empty room. And you need to learn to jog soon and get faster so she cannot keep up with you....

seriously, how are those GAL ideas? Did you read my list? That's not even complete but I'd bet anything you could coach a T-ball team or do something with other parents of kids your kids' age or something else off that list. Don't know where you live but


Hang in there. There ARE positives. Stay strong and do NOT wallow. It helps no one and it's a bit self indulgent too. Like the "woe is me" thing, which is not attractive or what YOU want anyhow.

More later....

PS where are you in the books? DO read them - and more than once...

I've been reading your posts and wanted to reach out and say that I understand your situation. I lived through something similar with my wife. She is pretty abusive.

I had to move out. I won't hijack your topic with my story but I'm really lonely and can't go home. I know you understand because you are being verbally abused like I was. Because I left I can't go back. If I do it validates my wifes behavior. I have a sinking feeling she is never going to ask me to come home.

I really hate my life now. I hate where I live. I miss my home. I miss my dog. I miss my wife. I miss my old life.

If I could go back in time and change all the bad decisions I made that got me here I would. I wish I was in your shoes. You are still home so you can change your circumstances.

It sounds like your are dealing with a wounded animal. And you are the person who hurt her feelings. You had an emotional affair, blabbed all over town about what a b----h she was, got people to unfriend her on facebook, and after you came clean about it you got mad at her for getting mad at you. Then you threatened to divorce her.

Dude, seriously. She sounds like a wounded animal. Wounded animals are dangerous.

Unless you want to be living in a one bedroom apartment next door to some punk who has his friends over at 2 am and only see your kids on the weekend while some lowlife your wife starts dating sees them the rest of the time...freaking start treating your wife with some respect.

How pissed would you be if she had done this to you? Come on. Be honest. I think my wife is emotionally and verbally abusive. But at least I understand that I'm an one messed up guy. If my wife had done half the things to me I did to her I would never forgive her.

At least I'm honest about this. I have a double standard. All men do. Lets admit it. We know our wives will forgive us. Maybe that's why they get so mad at us. Maybe they don't like it when we start to dislike them.

I don't know. But I know my wife was nicer to me before I started using the word divorce. Everything went downhill once I said divorce. The problem was I couldn't stop saying the word. It was like a drug.

You can keep doing what your doing but swear to god. How do you think this is going to end?

Thank you so much for the long, thoughtful replies 25yearsmlc. I'm going to start responding now to the first bit, reread a lot of what you wrote, think on it some, then try to respond to the rest as much as I can.
I will try my hardest to get out of the "I hate myself" mindset, because I know it is self-indulgent and counter-productive. It is, however, how I feel right now. If I could divorce me, I would.

In response to your first post:
Inertia is always a problem for me. Has always been.
Excuse time: between my kids having swim lessons, soccer, need for nap for D3, W's demand that the house be in order when she gets home, and the fact that she gets mad if I go anywhere when she gets home because I'm not home helping w/ the kids, I feel like my time is not that plentiful and it often doesn't feel like my own. Now, I know these are all just excuses, and thus, are crap, but they are why I feel stuck. I'm like the worst person ever at time management.
OK, enough excuses...plan of action. Since W and kids are off to Portland tomorrow and Monday (she planned it because "Hello. Did you not think I knew what was coming? It's why I booked Portland." So there's my track record) so I actually have time to focus on me.
1) I will make phone calls to the people in charge of signing up players for a local adult soccer league (one call before, unreturned...I didn't follow up either). This is an important one to me because it will benefit me in many ways. It is getting out to GAL, it is exercise that I enjoy, and it is a chance to make friends.
2) I will also go to the gym both days to get good workouts in and try to get some momentum up for the week. Momentum being much more productive than inertia.
3) I will read 5LL, started some tonight, I'll read more when I'm done with this post. I will also finish up DR and probably reread some sections of it. I may crack into "After the affair" too.
4) I will tackle whatever house-work I can. I badly need to finish painting the outside of the house (major issue for W...and it should be) but it's going to be 100 degrees here, so that job may have to wait to be a weekend in September. I can, however do things in the house and maybe even wash the windows...they need it and I can manage that in the heat.
5) ??? Ideas ??? I already cleaned both bathrooms, the kitchen sink, and mowed the lawn Friday and today.
6) Brainstorm ways to make a grand gesture. I don't think I should do anything immediate to try to fix the b-day failure because "...after the fact is not the same. So don't thing trying to fix the issue is a good idea." I'm thinking I'm going to have to do a "just because" or "I'm so sorry for everything" gift sometime in the next few weeks. Really hard because I have no means to spend money that she doesn't immediately track...ugh another excuse. I'm intrigued by the idea of something for her and a friend.

Other ideas to better me (180s):
1) Plan for my D3's b-day in September. This may be my next best chance to show my W that I can learn how to give gifts.
2) Learn to write computer software. I think I want to get my masters in computer science or some related thing so I have the option of switching careers at some point.
3) Train for and run a 5K, this should help the weight loss keep coming.
4) Learn to speak Spanish semi-fluently; 3 years in HS, but I'd really love to be able to speak it to students and parents.
5) Continue to get things done around the house. Both in terms of general cleaning and daily running of the ship and in terms of improvements. Do as much as I possibly can w/out her ever asking.
6) Take charge of my half of the finances...whether we actually separate or continue to be "roommates" (her word).
7) Make time to be active w/ my kids every chance I have.
8) Find a fear to conquer...other than fear of rejection.
9) Face and deal with my fear of rejection since that's the one I have to conquer to stay the course and stand for my marriage (and the reason I made the mistake of quitting and getting into the EA). I've only had 3 actual relationships, and probably only two other brief ones before due to my paralyzing fear of rejection ever since I first became interested in girls. Basically all of my relationships were very low-risk entries for me. Either I knew ahead of time they'd say yes if I asked them out, or they pursued me.
10) Deal with the trust issues created by my EA. First with myself, then with my W.
11) Find a friend who has gone through a really rough time in his M so I can have one person to have my back that is actually present in my life. Though this community is going to be my well of strength when I need it.
12) Though I'm not religious, find a method of centering myself. I must have a way to slow myself down when I get panicky (like when I quit and jumped into the EA after letting my mind run wild w/ what my W was doing after dropping the D word on me.

OK, now I'm overwhelmed.

I'll write more later, computer battery about to die.

Thanks again!!!

Ok, 2:45 AM, finished 5LL. Probably would've cried if I had the tears right now. That was painful to me. I see that I have never consistently shown love to my wife in any of the 3 ways that are most important to her. I actually am starting to think receiving gifts is either #2 or #3 for her along with quality time, I'm not 100% sure for those two. Almost certain that #1 is acts of service. I'm the exact opposite...#1 for me is words of affirmation and #2 is physical touch. Quality time would be my #3, but the other two are waaaay behind those 3.

I think that I've been working hard at acts of service is the only thing keeping me in the game at all right now. I need to continue to step it up even more so in that arena as well as see if I can melt some ice with gift giving. I think, for her, the gifts are an act of service because of the planning that goes in. She's all about the planning ahead and little, short thought gifts have little impact. I'm still going to try to do that more. In as non-pursuing way as possible. Maybe do more of that w/ my kids too. Shower them with more to show her I'm learning the language.

I also know why I've pulled back so much now...very little in the way of physical touch (even non-sexual) and she's a very critical person, so that stabs me hard is the words of affirmation arena.

Time to get my hands dirty and really get to work.

Thanks to all who've gotten after me so far. I'm going to need your strength for a long while, my love tank is on fumes and it's going to be a long time until (if at all) my W starts doing much to fill it. My kids will help, they're great at words of affirmation and hugs and kisses.

Well, as stupid as I was all this week and yesterday in preparation for W's b-day, I'm making an effort to start things on the right path today. I just called the hotel they're staying at and ordered a room service b-day brownie sent to the room tonight with some balloons. It's not perfect, but it is a start, and it shows effort. She'll probably call me an idiot for it and continue to berate me, but she will at least notice. Tomorrow I'm thinking either a single rose or a small bouquet of tulips and a heartfelt note apologizing for her when she gets home.

I think my plan will be to give her a gift every day of her 32nd year, since I blew her 32nd birthday. At least until she has moved out AND filed...at which point I have to go full LRT. Right now, I'm going to abandon LRT and focus on the 180s. My gifts won't all be huge and many of them will involve the kids making/finding/giving something to her since a big part of the issue is what I have taught the kids w/ my crappy actions.

I am resolving to stop the inaction. Action, even if it isn't perfect, beats inaction for me. I have to overcome the paralysis of worrying about if what I do is perfect and just bleeping do it.
I will do no other real pursuing, just trying to show her that I can give gifts and that I can be the man she wants me to be by teaching the kids that giving gifts to their mother is a fun thing to do. I will not be discouraged, even if she gets frustrated at it. I will just vary the size of the gift to fit the mood. If she's grumpy about getting gifts, the next few will be small and very cheap or free...if she's receptive, I'll work more in the direction of direct gifts.

That said, I'm going to need gift ideas, lots...I've just signed on for up to 365 consecutive days of giving some kind of gift...and I'm poor, so I will have to do this on a major budget. All (or almost all) have to be under $20, the vast majority under $10, and many under $5 to free. I probably need to average under $3/ day to fit this in budget-wise, that's still $90/month that I don't really have. Eek!!!

Called and left messages with the contact people for the soccer league I'm trying to join. I'll call again later tonight if I don't hear back.

Now time to go work out then get the power washer from my dad so I can spray down the house tonight. It's a start on washing the windows and finishing painting, so it has to happen.

I need a lot of support these days ladies and gents...she insists she's done, won' be around to have this happen at Christmas, and she "feels sorry for the kids that I'm their dad." The only wisp of hope I feel is that she IS so mad. If she was as done as she says, I think she would've just left this morning w/out flipping out at me again. I've got to reset her expectations and thinking of me. If I can hang on until Christmas that'll give me another chance at actually doing this whole gift thing right...and wouldn't it be cool if she was actually anticipating it instead of dreading my lame attempt.

I've taken some hard punches, but I haven't heard the bell yet. I may still be in this fight. Cue Rocky montage as I head off to go work out...

Gift ideas that are not pricey

(though a few things you give her, should be). Does she make a lot more money than you do? Can you earn more, if you tried?

Anyhow There are GOOD value wines (=wines that are rated 90 points or higher and are under $20 so now and then, if she's a wine drinker, get her one with some information about it (there are some wine stores that explain the wine. You enclose the information about the wine, with it in a bottle bag.

And or wine and cheese mini "party" with just you two (or her and a friend), a block or two of cheeses, French bread or crackers and a nice bottle of wine and if there are scene overlooks.
AND OR

A manicure/pedicure and then later that week, maybe buy her some gadgets for upkeep, like a nail buffer, or some polish that matches.

AND OR a little Hot Wheels car of the "Dream Car" she always said she'd get if she won the lottery. OR a toy yacht for the tub with that same theme..." a doll of her favorite movie idol;

small things that are symbolic to her and or you two. On your first dates, did anything happen or get broken that could be memorialized with a token gift? Did you hear a band you can get a CD of now?

This could be fun. Approach it that way, with a positive mental attitude. It'll help.

I like your thinking. Wine's not really her thing, but I will continue to look for other things from the past.

The challenge with money is that, though I make more than her, neither of us makes a lot and all of our money is stuck together. I have no money that is at my sole discretion w/out her seeing where it goes. I think that may be a boundary I need to create...but that is something I have to do very carefully.

She's so very mad (rightfully so), but she texted something today that gives me hope...and I'm going to cling to hope for all it's worth. The text conversation went essentially as such (following a lot of her venting via text all morning, but this started later):
W: I don't get it
Me: It will never be an issue again. Starting today, I'm breaking the pattern.
W:Right
Me: Inaction will no longer be my way
W: Whatever
Me: Please don't take my word for it. My words are meaningless.
W: I know. It kills me. I want you to figure it out. A trip with them by myself is not the same

It continued from there. I stayed on the future track, telling her that she doesn't need to believe my words, just watch.

The underlined sentences are the ones that give me hope. Way more than I had earlier today.

She is giving you a chance and that's great.

But stop making promises about what you are going to do. Just do it.

Seriously you are setting yourself up by creating huge expectations of an overnight change in you that is actually going to take TIME.

And as you say yourself, talk is cheap. And tooting your horn about whatever you actually do, negates a lot of it. So just "DO IT" and say nothing about "IT".

Plus you are going to need feedback from her to guide you along. So she will have some accountability there, b/c you are not a mind reader.

So, BE the change you want to see and make sure you see a counselor or therapist for suggestions and how to read your w.

Usually if you accept a diagnosis of depression or anxiety, or "adjustment disorder" (??), your health insurance should get you a lot more than 4 appointments. Like 20 I think.

Look into it and keep posting here. You now have only one thread, right?

Okay, so there IS hope and you are now awake.

So those "rules" (which are guidelines and which do not ALL apply to every situation but give us a ballpark area to work on)

help you. But don't use confusion as an excuse for paralysis. The "do not pursue" is NOT applicable to your situation.

Do you see why? She wants action and leadership from you.

My "caveman" theory is based on a survey that revealed the 2 things mates most valued in their spouses.

Men valued most "attraction" to their wives (trophy value and sexual attraction is what the anthropologists said it meant, a superior mate for children too) and the #2 thing was "peace at home" which I interpreted as no nagging. The experts said men want to be admired in their marriages. I believe that.

So the survey revealed this about what 2 traits people MOST valued in their mates.

Women most valued in their h's, 1) Security (financial, physical & emotional). We want to feel protected, and a man who is a good provider is also very attractive. That's especially so when there are children. We need to know that there will be a roof over our baby's head and food on the table, AND that our h's are not gambling away the money, or spending it on OWs. We need to know that our men take care of their bodies in part to keep US safe, we need to know that our man will stop a bad guy from hurting us, and that helps us feel secure.

Secondly women valued "Fidelity" - and that is self explanatory.

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you. You were "inert"?? Super inactive, so I think she did not feel safe with you. Money was an issue, still is, and you were not taking care of your body, or her, and so I"m not sure what she thought. MAYBE down the road you can probe that area.

I DO get the feeling you would go investigate the scary noise downstairs at night, but there are other ways for a woman to feel unprotected.

Like not standing up for her with your family, that is huge one, or like being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment) and or like being unhealthy with too much weight

which MIGHT make her feel that you are not valuing yourself enough to take care of yourself, and so she'll be a widow early.... and maybe there is some truth there, but bottom line is a weight gain of 50-100 lbs is a lot to overlook.

My "caveman" theory is that at some level we feel, down deep and maybe at a biological level, that when the man goes out of the cave - the woman stays behind with the baby, (the baby that is unquestionably the man's child)

and the man expects that baby to be cared for while he's gone,

and the fires should still be going, kindling gathered, and

the Woman expects the man to bring back some meat or at least berries, and he needs to come back on time, or she'll worry, and if the saber toothed tiger comes back, the woman protects the child and backs up her h, but HE fights the tiger if he is there. Helps her feel safe and provided for.

I think women DO want to be provided for and protected - and men Do want to be admired and seen as having a "hot" mate who is attractive and attracted to him....and that's why stay at home dads have to be VERY secure in themselves and their wives also have to be VERY secure in themselves as women and professionals and mates, etc.


For now, you have a lot to work on and a lot to work with.

Stay the course and do THIS program (don't mix up the different approaches b/c then neither is treated fairly) and you can't tell which things worked best.

Make sense? Okay, so where are you in the books now? I lost track....
oh and one other thing

a small thing -- if you could break up your posts into smaller paragraphs, it's a lot easier to follow. Thanks,

good luck!