Great story eric! Reminds me of A. Einstein quote that the defin. of crazy is "Doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting different results", just not going to happen!
Glad you had fun at trivia. It's nice to meet new people and have a little fun, right?
Oh Eric is spot on with that "everyone else is crazy" mantra. My h always says"It's not me. Nothing is wrong with me. It's everyone else." Isn't it fascinating that the common denominator in all issues is the one person who claims to be the sane one? Your wife will change with the wind:)
You can do this.
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
Good morning all, Had some reveling interactions with my W last night. She wants me to sign paperwork so she can refinance her car (actually our car since I paid the down payment and most of the payments) but my lawyer didn't like the idea. I thought about it and I figure there is no way that I will ever try and keep that car in the D settlement so why not do this.
She texted me yesterday morning asking if I could meet at her bank at a certain time. I waited to talk to my lawyer before answering and after I did, I texted back that I would talk to her when she came home. I could tell she didn't like this as she texted "What's to talk about"? So, I again text no big deal, just something my lawyer said.
So she gets home last night and I talk to her. As usual, as soon as she hears something she doesn't like, she starts to talk over me and not let me finish. I tell her that my L doesn't want me to do this but as long as she's in agreement that the car remains CP even after I sign, I will do that as I can't see how I would not be OK with her keeping the car. Of course not good enough for her. She HAS to say that it's MY fault as I should have refinanced HER car years ago. She MUST find fault with me in every interaction! I tell her to stop, please, I'm trying to do something for you. She then tells me that when she got the text she got VERY angry and asked why I didn't say more than just I'll talk later. I tell her what would you have me say "Lawyer doesn't want me to sign"?, don't you think that would have been worse?
She then tells me that she doesn't trust me. I stop her there and tell her that she was my best friend and the person I loved more than any other for 25 years. I still love her and care deeply for her, even if not in the same way as before and I would never hurt her on purpose. That she needs to stop listening to people who tell her that I'm going to do awful things because I'm not that kind of person. That I want her to be happy, with me or without and I hope she finds the thing she needs so bad. She tells me "There's a fine line between love and hate. I know you're angry with me." It's like her being so worried that I'm going to steal from her bank accounts if she accidentally leaves her info on a payment site. I tell her I would never do something like that, I'd never steal, let alone from her. She says "Maybe not now but what happens in a few months and you don't have much money".
This is all very enlightening to me. I have never given her reason to believe I would ever steal from anyone, let alone her. I have been so understanding and caring towards her and want her to be happy. I worked and she didn't for most of our marriage and not once did I say anything but this is our money and because I really felt that way! Now she sees me as someone she "can't trust" and worries about me stealing money? It's almost to the point now where she is telling herself I'm not who I am, that I'm this bad person who would be easy to leave. That I'm going to do vindictive things and in the 25 years we have been together I have never been vindictive. I swear she is thinking how she would act and feel if things were reversed! (a little mind reading there) and that is what she is thinking I'll do. Not to mention her father and "friends"...some friends, telling her at first that I was such a great guy and not to leave to now that she made up her mind, telling her all the horrible things I'll do because that's what their EX did!
I am angry at her for sure. Mostly because she refused to even try and just decided to walk away from a 20 year marriage. Add to that she filed before she even left after saying she wasn't and of course I'm angry. But I also have been supportive throughout this whole ordeal. I could have been awful, I could have let her totally on her own. I tried to understand that she was hurting (yes, 25 I have) and have NEVER been mean or done something to hurt her. She has made up most of what she keeps saying are reasons (changing history) and actually thinks me capable of things I wouldn't do to my worst enemy. I guess that she must think like this if only to tell herself she's right about leaving. I don't see how, with her believing that I'm now this other person, how she will ever be able to see me any other way. My M is truly and completely over. As long as she has people like her father telling her how justified she is in doing what she is doing, I don't ever see her turning back. She still is even saying how "easy' our D is going to be and believes this. We don't have anything to settle with the lawyers is her new mantra (yeah, right). Now, this morning she asked me about the private school for our D! Up until now, she has refused to even consider her going and moved 28 miles away for the "good schools" (again, not really true, IMO. It is also where her friends all live) now she wants to talk about this? She is all over the map and what she thinks one day changes the next, just like everyone said would happen. Why can't she see the way she is being? Do they really not have the ability to see how crazy they are acting? Of course the answer to that is they can't. Just like Eric said when you're crazy, everyone else are the crazy ones!
The worst part for me is that I just can't shake the feeling that we could have gotten through this. If she had been at all willing to try, to maybe go to MC or made some effort, we could have made it. We'll never know now as there is no stopping her and I can never see her changing her mind or admitting she made a mistake once she is gone. Just not like her. Too bad for all the people she is going to hurt and that includes herself. I doubt she will ever find anyone who will care as much for her as I have and still do. I'm sure that even I will stop caring over time and I see the damage she causes. Last year she had close to a nervous break down. She honestly thought I would rather she were dead. Accused me of feeding her things with lots of fat so she would have a heart attack or stroke! This was when she went back on AD's. I, of course, didn't feel that way nor did I do anything to make her think I felt that way. It was in her own head, just like all the things she sees me thinking now.
She is going away to visit her father this weekend. I will be doing some GAL activities myself. I really need to move forward as the slim hope that anything will ever change is now gone.
Matt, I could have written that post. I don't recall if I did several years ago.
Know what I learned at the time knowing I gave her no reason not to trust me?
It's not a rational conversation, Matt.
Do you know that you cannot reason with an illogical or irrational person? If it was anyone other than your W, you would not walk away, Matt. You would RUN.
Know what, re-read Eric's post regarding the looney bin - that's you if you don't change your mindset quickly.
Help her pack her things and move on, Matt. Let her be the one to do the work, but don't resist. Don't try to reason. Don't be angry any longer than you can help it. Don't let her give you a heart attack over this. It wouldn't even phase her at this time in her life and she'd probably blame you.
You'll hear all kinds of stuff from her in the coming years, Matt. Don't listen and don't buy into it.
I know it's not easy to do that for you. I know your personality type won't like that. I know it's not what you planned.
But it's what is. And there is no reason to think it will change because you say the right words. There's no reason to think it will change because you tried to help. There's no reason to think you have any reason to feel obligated to help (that was a tough one for many of us here). There no reason that you should expect her to do anything other than what she is doing. Being mean, nasty, etc.
Know why? Me neither, Matt. But it is what is...
Your story is very familiar to me, Matt.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Sometimes I have a hard time reading your thread...it brings me back to when I was parked on the crazy train and for the life of me could not figure out why I could not get off.
Was it love?
Was it my religious beliefs?
Was it fear?
Was it the kids?
Was it me?
And....just as I would put ONE itsy bitsy toe out....BOOM...I was right back on the train.
Lemme show you something...
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I texted back that I would talk to her when she came home
This ^^^ is YOU being logical and stating YOUR position.
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she didn't like this as she texted "What's to talk about"?
This ^^^^ is her totally ignoring YOUR position.
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So, I again text no big deal, just something my lawyer said.
This ^^^ is YOU CAVING and then having to JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION.
At a first glance seems pretty normal - right? EXCEPT you have created an interesting dynamic between you and her. In part, because you are pissed and afraid to loose her. Psstt...guess what she knows this. So as I am sure you understand by now, MLC is about HER NEEDS, HER WANTS, HER POSITION. Sorry dude, you do not matter.
Can you see the dynamic? Can you see why she will continue to do things that you do not agree with? Can you see that until YOU change this dynamic that nothing will change. You will say "the Sky is blue"...."she will say it is PURPLE"...you will then respond "no honey it really is blue" - and BOOM...she gotcha again.
When you are comfortable with yourself, when you truly drop the rope, you will state what you need to state and will stop responding to her. Your responses are YOUR ATTEMPT to have her "get it".
DB is about doing what works...
You have tried the I can talk to her till she "get's it" approach. Maybe it is time to change your approach.
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As usual, as soon as she hears something she doesn't like, she starts to talk over me and not let me finish.
Why should she listen to you. YOu are the one after all that is crazy. Right?
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I tell her that my L doesn't want me to do this but as long as she's in agreement that the car remains CP even after I sign, I will do that as I can't see how I would not be OK with her keeping the car.
Notice your response? You started negotiating with her. YOU GAVE IN. YOu did not stand your ground. Lemme ask you a question....
If your kid came home and asked you if he could snort coke in his room, away from you, so that you would not see it. What would you say? Chance are NO. Right?
Would you continue to debate this with your kid? Chances are NO. So why are you trying to debate everything with her? Psstt..hint.....IMO, cause deep down inside you still are tying to talk your way out of this. Psstt another hint - It aint gonna work.
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She MUST find fault with me in every interaction!
Have we not mentioned that she is going to keep doing that. Know what the problem is? YOU HAVE AN EXPECTATION that SHE WILL STOP - at some point. And when that does not work...you cave...you try and negotiate with her. Guess what that does? It hands the power of the R over to her.
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I tell her to stop, please, I'm trying to do something for you. She then tells me that when she got the text she got VERY angry and asked why I didn't say more than just I'll talk later. I tell her what would you have me say "Lawyer doesn't want me to sign"?, don't you think that would have been worse?
See above comments on the dynamic that you have created.
"My lawyer does not want me to sign"
That ^^^ buddy is FEAR. Why? First off, your L works for YOU. YOUR L advices and YOU decide how to proceed. Do you think she is stupid and does not know this. Your response screamed of Fear. Instead of OWNING your choice...you blamed the poor old Lawyer.
IMO, your response should have been straight to the point. NO. When she pushed...your response could have been. "I will not have this conversation now". When she pushed again. Your response could have been " (insert sounds of you walking away) ".
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She then tells me that she doesn't trust me. I stop her there and tell her that she was my best friend and the person I loved more than any other for 25 years. I still love her and care deeply for her, even if not in the same way as before and I would never hurt her on purpose.
This is YOU trying to talk your way out of it again. Have you considered that by continuing to try and express what YOU want that you are telling her that what SHE WANTS is not important.
Think about it.
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That she needs to stop listening to people who tell her that I'm going to do awful things because I'm not that kind of person.
OMG, I remember doing this...you are actually making excuses for HER. Nah..it cannot be her CHOICE...it must be her friends. Bul*chit. It is her choice. Love her enough to let her LIVE her choices.
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That I want her to be happy, with me or without and I hope she finds the thing she needs so bad.
DO you really? Tell me how you feel if she takes you to the cleaners...drives around in the new BMW with a new dude...the BMW BTW, you are paying for. Comm'on dude. Really. YOu want her to be happy - then cut the cord. Let her live her choices and her life - you live YOURS.
I'll post more later..
Tell me what you think about the above...
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
Very good advice from above you cannot rationalize with crazy.
Quick story for you. Do you know how many times I've been called irrational in my life? 0. My h post BD said he had "no idea how I could function being so rational." This was between sobs. I could not believe. What I was watching.
I try to limit communication with him. Once in a while he will send me a text that says "I want to discuss this calmly and rationally." Do you know what I always say to myself? H must be sending a representative to this discussion.
Step away from the crazy train. Don't delve in bat$h!t. You will feel better. Hang in there!
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
I can say I felt a lot of what you felt and your story reads similiar to mine.
we do make mistakes in this thing called MLC especially when we love our spouse. Our spouses have changed though. Its tough to grasp this change.
The day I grasped this change after much questioning, 2 x 4's from Mack, Eric, etc etc was the day things began to change.
I know your tired of hearing this but "be the change". I am telling you it does get better. That's why Eric, Mack, the rest of the gang is here because it got better for them and they can now help others through this mess. and...... not just getting through but having an amazing life on the other side of this.
Thanks Everyone and yes, you are all so very right. I really was trying to express (not well) that I'm seeing exactly what you have all been saying. Although I do like your post Eric, I guess I didn't see the dynamic until you pointed it out so well. I actually was glad I had that talk with her. I really saw every aspect of her craziness all in one conversation! I saw just what you point out Mach and Eric, you just can't have a rational conversation no matter what the subject matter. I saw her like I saw my daughter a few years ago when she was going through a rebellious stage, the always circling back to what she wants and thinks. The having to find a way that I'm the one being unfair or not seeing the reality of what is really happening here. The trying to justify or min. the results of her poor choices. Of course it was weird that she was naked for part of the conversation! She had just come home and for the first time in a very long time she got naked in front of me like it was no big deal. Very odd that.
I also saw real fear. Fear of what is coming even if it is her that is driving that way. Fear of what I may become or feel towards her. If she really thinks what she is doing is so right why would she be so afraid of what I may or may not do in the future? She is the one that blames her fears on what others are telling her I will do (she said several times "Everyone told me that you would ____ but I didn't want to believe them". Thing is I hadn't actually DONE anything! And Just who is "everyone"? that turned out to be dad and her twice divorced friend)
I was so much LESS angry after watching her body language and hearing her need so badly to place some kind of blame on me for anything she feels or does. I'm glad I had this talk. I see her so much more as a scared little girl who is so wrapped up in what SHE wants but at the same time doesn't want to be seen as "bad". She has always been somewhat selfish with the people she knows will allow it. She is one of those people that would rather do something that makes her look good to the people around her like at work or at the school in front of the other parents but at the same time wouldn't do the same for the people who she knows love or care about her. It's the same dynamic with her father. He hasn't done Sheet for her most of his life but all he need do is ask and she would do whatever he wants, not a single complaint. Her mom who has always been there for her asks for something and all she does is complain about her being so damn "needy". It's just magnified in her now that she's MLC.
My lawyer really was the one who didn't want me to do this but I didn't think it was worth the battle in the end. I guess it was wrong of me but I really wanted her to know that I didn't have to do this, that I was in my rights to refuse to do it but chose not to. Defin. weakness on my part! I see so clearly what her behavior has done to me and the way I do things! I never would have felt the need to show this in the past but would have just done it. Why the hell does it matter that she see's that I didn't need to? Because I'm still buying into her "You're the one who caused this" crap! She will never see anything but what she wants and I could be a saint or give her a kidney and she would still find some way that it isn't anything but what she deserves me to do for her. I really thought I was done with that but I guess I still need to work on it.
I understand that I can't stop her from doing anything. I understand that no matter what I say she will keep doing what she is doing. Part of me does think that she may someday come out of her MLC and see just what she has lost and that part of me doesn't want her thinking that I will reject her out of hand and be afraid to come and talk to me when she starts to see how she was just as at fault for what happened. I really believe that her being in her own place, totally "in control of her own life" (like anyone ever is!)won't do a damn thing to make her any happier. I guess part of me is still hanging on to some tiny hope. Hate seeing that in me but if I'm to be honest it's there. Something else I need to work on.
For now she is gone for the weekend and I have to be there for my D14. She is going out with some friends tomorrow and is looking forward to it. Now that my W is going, we will be able to have her friends come over. My W was freaked by our house being small that she never wanted to have friends of the kids over. That was all in her head and now my D will be able to hang out at her house with her friends! Starting to see some defin. pluses to not having a crazy person sharing my life!
