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Melissa - I agree with you that an 8-hour drive seems excessive for field trip for a group of 9-year-olds. I think your suggestion that your H drive is a nice compromise. In your position, I'd certainly feel a lot better if my H were driving than another parent. My D7 being driven by others is something that makes me nervous on shorter trips, so a 4-hour drive each way with someone else would be too much for me.

I think you found your middle ground! Great idea, and he can say no, but you found a solution that would work for both of you.

The more I think about this, the more it disturbs me.

With every communication, I just see what a narcissist my H is that much more. In his tone, the way he treats me, the way he tries to manipulate me the way he doesn't even respond to what I said - obviously not listening to me at all. The fact that he thinks that all children should be raised the way he was so they can turn out great like him. (Let's not forget he hates his mother, resents his father, and um, he may have just a few issues that keep him from being the great guy he thinks he is.)

Should I ask him whether he wants to get D to introduce adversity into his children's lives?

I am really not sure on how to respond. I am still trying to figure out how to deal with someone like him. I know I am not going to just go along with what he wants to keep the peace. Not in this situation. So the options are, simply say "thank you for your thoughts, I have decided to keep her home," or suggest, in a way that feeds his ego, that he drive. Then, when he says no, he can't (because he always says no to these things, yet finds time to go to the gym and out to lunch and screw around on match.com, twitter and Facebook all day), I will respond with, "thank you, I am keeping her home."

I hate the way he corners me in every conversation like this, so that there is no way to answer him other than his way.

Hi melissa,

I did not read all your posts. But I sure wish you well. Sounds like your H needs help. My father was a narcissist. My wife said I was one too. My W and family are everything to me and i tried to control them with my mind telling me that how i was trying to control them was best for them ..my W felt I was needy and it was to feed my ego..i know just screwed up. My behaviour escalated to the point where she couldnt take it anymore and hence her D filing. I did see a psychiatrist and he said i was more codependent with some narcissistic control patterns because my father controlled me and made me always do what he wanted. If your H is a true narcissist he probably will think he doesn't have any issues. Many say true narcissists can't be cured and I probably would agree because they think they are fine. If I could not get my behavioral control patterns in check I would not want to be married to me either. I know I have (like to think "had" but something you always work on) behavioral issues. I attend Co dependents Anonymous (CoDa) meetings and Adult Children of Dysfunctional Family meetings. The support from these meetings helps me focus to change my unhealthy control patterns, etc. I now tell myself all the time that I will not be needy and dependent on others. Again, I have not read your posts so I don't know what you are looking for in your relationship with H. I'm just changing for me and whether my W comes back or not I know I will be a better person for it and I am grateful that my W led me to finally find my true self.

Thanks tbm . . . I think it's great that you listened to your W (it doesn't mean you have to agree with her diagnosis of you!) and that you are working to make changes to yourself. I also appreciate you sharing with me.

I don't know whether my H is a true narcissist or not, or what the difference is. I know that right now he views all of the issues as mine. He thinks that he is self aware and introspective because he will think about whether he might be wrong, before concluding that he is correct and it's someone else's fault. I'm not sure whether that is a good sign (in the sense that at least he thinks about it) or just one step farther in narcissist behavior.

Where are my girls with the 2x4s today?

Wonka, want to know what the nuggets are. I do not have my nugget glasses on today. I am in VA and I left them at home in CO.

He had valid points in his email that were ob ions from the start....of course D9 may go and totally enjoy it and make a memory that will last a life time. Thats what happens when you take a risk, you never know the benefits.

But I think its bringing up your email about you own fear was manipulative. He did not need to bring that up...like he now wants you to prove yourself...prove that email wasn't all talk...you dont have to prove a thing to him.

Maybe he sould just takin the reigns on the whole field trip issue...let him talk to D9 and they decided if shes to go or not. (I am not a parent so I dont know if thats a bad idea or not lol)
But since he is so passionate over this.... then yeah he needs to be involved in the field trip more than just talk....so driving is a good idea to.

The talk of being not quick to give up when things aren't easy etc....how ironic. But maybe he's done some self reflection and he sees this pattern in him self and worries he passed it on to the kids?

I hope the issue w/ the field trip is settled soon b/c something this simple shouldn't take this long. Some one will have to "cave"...unfortunately (but also fortunately bc it shows your growth) you may have to be the bigger person on this and give in...but ask in if he would drive is a great way to compromise and I think he and D9 my get some alone bonding time in that may be needed since the fish incident.

typo in my post *valid points that were obvious from the start

It's one thing to say what he did, which wasn't unreasonable at all, it was fine.

But it's another thing to forget the context of his words.

The 2 words that came to me first, were "ironic" and "hypocritical."

So I'm assuming that is where your emotional reaction is based. It's where mine would be. Not that it helps, but I'm saying "wow, I get it Melissa, I really do."

Where does that leave you?

Choices: dig in your heels and insist she NOT go, which means he "wins" b/c it "proves" you have not changed your evil ways.

OR you compromise, (whatever that means), but it should at least mean YOU don't shoulder the physical logistical ramifications of HIS decision.

Dear God, why hasn't he volunteered to drive himself by now? Or at least get her there at 6:30 am.

You have your son to care for and do not want to drive her at that time. Let alone drive for 4 hours...

OR you totally give in, AND YOU and the kids bear the consequences of HIS choices (again, I might add).

I mean, what's new, given his choice to leave and stay away at his "Dad's Mad Pad"...(um, no, you don't have to say that last part.... )


At some point I'd use the words of his to ask what he thinks they'll believe about "overcoming adversity" within a R, like a m, by his choice to leave and split the family??

It won't bring you closer to him, but it might get him to see how he hurts his own kids...or not.
He must know he glossed over his role in their present/soon to come adversities. Is he training her to get ready for all the coming disappointments he'll heap into her life? How thoughtful.

But it's not as if your d won't ever think of that. I cannot stress to you though, that kids do, in time, "get it".

The truth will be revealed but it's so much better for your R with them, if you are not the messenger of that truth. Make sense?

Oh, and ftr, I don't think she'll be "harmed" by going. Not if you present it in the best light.
And if you have to send her in the end, you do need to make the best of it. Even if it means your h says "I TOLD YOU SO," later on, which I believe he will...but that is b/c this is about HER, and not about winning...


There's nothing wrong with you saying some of the things to him, that you said here. Presented in the same way he presented his, but without
the gratuitously insulting comments he made, which served no purpose. Those hinder good communication. Period. Yes you can call him on that. B/c he framed it in a way that you cannot come out as an equal partner here. I mean in the context of this situation, he framed it in a way that is very coercive.

However, Melissa, Is this really an issue you want to fall on your sword for? Think about it. Do not succumb to the "it's unfair!" We all know that.

But know that whatever he writes in these texts, he might be saving. Be careful how you word things.

Do so with the understanding that it might be read by a judge later on...

GOOD LUCK!

this ^^^^^




and this ^^^^

is where you are put to the test, where being the best person you can be will be defined.

Stop focusing on what he says, and how and why.

If you cannot resolve an issue of a field trip, what will you do when you guys have to discuss new schools, drugs, bad influences, alcohol, grades, partying, curfews...
Pointing the finger and finding all the negatives will keep you from finding ANY common ground to co-parent effectively.

Focus on getting rid of the anger which is clouding you at the moment. You've been absorbed in it for a while now and it's keeping you stuck.

You and your kids deserve better.


(((melissa)))

M - I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of a manipulative H. Even if an issue was clearly my H's fault (i.e. when I found out about the A), he managed to turn everything around on me to the point that I left the conversation devastated because of his manipulation. Since my H can accept criticism, he is the master of turning everything around. In addition to not having your concerns heard, you are then personally attacked. I get it - it svcks.

Unfortunately, you are going to be in the person who needs to stop this pattern. Because lets face it, your H is going to continue to bully you in this manner because it has worked in the past. As much as it is unfair, I think that for the moment you should ignore all the crap that he put into his email. Even if you point it out, it will get you no where. And I am not suggesting that you need to roll over and take this forever. I just think that you need to stop what you were both doing in the past and try to get to a place where your H thinks, maybe this is not working. It already happened a few weeks ago when your H threatened you regarding the divorce and you did not engage. He then came back and tried to be nice. He is expecting you to come back with an angry email. He wants to get you riled up to further justify his current actions.

If you ignore the tone of the email, your H has some valid points that you may even agree with including the fact that you that you dont want to shelter your kids and you probably dont want to let them quit just because they dont want to do something). My guess is that you and your H are probably on the same page on a few issues and it is just his tact that is very upsetting.

Where I think he is wrong is with respect to your D being car sick. I don't see that as her "needing to overcome adversity." It is a medical condition. Sending her on a million car rides is not going to cure her of the condition.

My H used to get annoyed because I am cautious about places where we stay because I am very allergic to dogs/cats. He thought that I was inflexible and should just have fun. What he failed to understand is that having an allergic reaction is miserable and not a choice. I try to take medicine to manage it but it does not always help depending on the dog. So yes, I try to avoid situation where I know that I will have an allergic reaction. It has nothing to do with fear or overcoming adversity or being inflexible. I just dont want my eyes to swell shut and have trouble breathing...because that is not fun no matter what I may be doing at the moment.

With respect to the field trip, what is the main reason that your D does not want to go (not your reasons or your H's reason). Does she not want to go because of the car ride and getting sick? Or did she mention other reasons? Maybe go back to her and ask her to tell you again exactly why she does not want to go.

If your D does not want to go because she is worried about getting carsick and not having you all there to help, then I would tell your H that you and your D would be okay with the field trip if your H went along (I know that you cant drive, but is there anyway that you could go and not drive in the alternative)? If this is the main reason, then you can explain that it is a medical condition and does not have to do with overcoming adversity.