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Raine,
Patience! I know that I remind people about patience all of the time, but is very important to dig deeper now than ever before. Your h is a very fragile man, even if he doesn't appear to look or act like it. This is the hardest part of the journey and it will require a lot of patience and counting to 10 many times over.

The apology you may get will not be the type of apology that we would offer up, but there will come a time when he will give you some indication of his remorse. The resentment you are feeling is very normal and as you both continue to travel the Yellow Brick Road, you will find that the dynamics in your situation will continue to change. The finish line is a bit far off yet, but I do think you both will make it there and go on to have a better marriage than ever before.

Until then, continue to keep the focus on you and your boys. BTW, how are the little ones doing? Take care of yourself and be sure to do some fun things for yourself. It is very important that you do. Happiness helps keep us sane and healthy.

Very poignant, Raine. Very well thought out and I think it's a great plan.

You are a very impressive woman, Raine.


Peace,
AJ

Hi Raine... I have begun to re-read your sitch. I have posted a few of your comments into my thread (as many of your comments resemble how I have felt/am feeling"

Sounds like your sitch has improved greatly... Looking forward to reading all of your story.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Magic!

Hi Raine!

Girl, you KNOW I am feeling ya with this.

We've talked about this. I think we all get to different crossroads during our journey, and you and I are at one right now.

When we begin this journey, and I'm speaking from my personal experience, I think we often feel that we would do anything to keep our spouses. No cost seemed too high.

But as time went on, I started to realize... Hey, I have feelings. I have wants and needs. I have standards. I matter.

Once we realize this, I think things change for the better for us.

Yes, the crisis is all about them. My H has even told me several times that he wants me to realize this is about him.

It may be all about them, but their crisis does not occur in a vacuum. Their choices often times do affect our lives in many ways - usually, not for the better.

I am with you Raine... Eventually, I will need to see some understanding and remorse for the damage that has been done. Not groveling or begging or pleading - but a sincere admission of wrong doing and a desire to fix what has been broken.

Could I forgive my H without this? Most likely. Can we restore our M without this? I don't think so.

Snodderly, I can see why you stress patience at this time. When our MLCers are totally gone on the Mothership, things are easier in a way. It's when they start to touch down to earth - and reality - that things get even more frustrating and complicated.

Raine, I just got the keys to my patience back ho - I think my shovel was ready to snap- feel free to borrow anytime

Raine,

Everything is about timing. When you do cross the apology bridge, it might be more helpful if you two have a MC who is pro-marriage and Gottman based therapy. That is if and WHEN your H feels secure enough to have MC with you.

So close baby....oh...you can see the finish line in sight but yet so far in your head. Hang in there!

uR - I'm continuing to feel what I feel, and not making excuses for it and being okay with it. I feel I have some level of forgiveness in my heart towards him, otherwise I just couldn't be around him, and we are together an awful lot, but I'm also giving him a lot of space.

GG - Thanks for stopping in and following It'll be interesting to see where our stories take us, where I feel we started out at the same spot, but our Hs just walked to the beat of their own drum. I think too often we think each MLC is going to get to the same place in the end, but this forum has opened my eyes to that. I don't feel secure that my M will be reconciled. And if it is, I don't feel it's anytime soon. I hope you are in a very good place, your kids are well, and you're all finding the love in life

snodderly I hear you on the need for patience. It has been a tough lesson for this Miss Impatience to learn the last year. This process of planning, this is how I build patience. It may not be for everyone, but these are the blocks I have to stack, and organize, and evaluate to make it possible to continue holding strong. I have to have a game plan. I have to keep thinking two steps ahead so I know how I will react, and so I know if and how it's possible for me to keep going. If I can do that, then I can put my mind to rest and stop thinking about it. I can file it away and not spin on it anymore, irregardless if I ever use it in the future.

The last three weeks since I had those major conversations with him have been extremely difficult. The fear was there that it was moving towards something I was not capable of. That I see the possibility of him wanting "us," but I could not see me being able to do that, without finding away to address and overcome all this pain and hurt. Finding that solution was the ticket for me to put those concerns to rest and allow me to continue on. It may never need to be used, but I have a viable solution now that I know will work for me and for him. Because one thing I do know: he will do anything he can to meet something I need, even now, even when we were separated. That has never changed. What has changed is I don't ask.

AJ you just made me feel 10' tall. If I get your approval, I know I'm doing something right!

MM, hey! Thanks for stopping in and reading my threads. I hope they're helping you. It was interesting to see what quotes you had pulled to your thread and how they affected you. That timeline you started from is where things started to change with my H. It was the point he saw his family slipping away, and realizing that he was losing his family for these OW, and it was not worth it.

TVS, you know it's probably good we are not close together. We would wreck some havoc on those boys of ours. No, not our cute sons, but our crazy Hs. I completely relate to everything you're putting down. Can we get some more good stuff going on with at least one of us so it will filter down?

Hey Woka Woka Wonka! I so agree. If it gets to that point, this kind of "ugh" stuff needs to happen in counseling. I like the idea of finding a Gottman C too. We are so far from that though. I still feel like he doesn't want a R, just the security of the home, the boys, and me, without any commitment.

Things continue to move, or crawl, or kind of sway from side to side and back a bit. I’ve been getting ready for his parent’s visit. I’ve asked him for help, given specifics even, but nothing yet. It reminds me of being a teen myself and avoiding the job list from my parents. Maybe I need to ground him from his games and TV? It’s getting done and I’m getting happy about seeing the progress. Yup, I’ve been carrying 50lb boxes up the stairs and 40lb bags of salt down the stairs, each time walking past him while he continues to perfect his sedentary life. I’m not waiting around for him to pitch in. I don’t feel annoyed about it. It just is. I would rather be doing what I'm doing than doing what he is doing.

I think he is pretty worried that I might be making moves to file. He approached me (unlocked the door and came in) within minutes of hearing I needed a notary, and was worried and wondering why. It was for a different matter. I’ve backed off him in any kind of pursuit or reconnection. I haven’t done anything PT in a week and a half. He’s done enough to irritate me lately, and I don’t feel it.

I am super nice to him, happy around him, ignore the things that are annoying, but I’m also doing my own things. I’m not punishing him for anything or giving him any cold shoulder, but I have given him full control of pursuit stuff, even to the point he has wondered why I stopped playing a certain game with him. To which I told him he never started it up again and I’m just letting him control that.

He has developed a new "friendship" with someone safe. Married, young, and clueless and she views him as a friend. She does not flirt back at all. I don’t see this going anywhere, but I do see his persistent need to mentor, be superior, be adored, and be flirtatious. This girl seems to really like me and wants to hang around me, but I’m so done with the high school vibe. And it’s hard to be around someone he is more open with than me. It’s hard to be around her and her husband and watching my H touch her on the arm to get her attention and talk to her. I’m letting it go. Whatever the crap is for why he needs this kind of friendship or whatever it is, I hope he can get it worked out. I know he is trying super hard to keep the boundaries and I also know if I raised any issue, he would cut the girl out. My problem, like with everything else, is that decision and action has to come from him.

There has been hinting from him. Hinting that he is going through withdrawals from ow1. He said because he needs that "intimacy" and he said, "I can’t have that with you, can I?" My response to him was, "What do you think I’m supporting you through this because I’m a good friend?" At one point he said he feels comfortable hugging me, being with me, spending time together, and kissing me on the cheek, but he doesn’t have that "intimacy" that he needs and that he doesn’t know if it’s always been that way or just now or just the last year. I’m glad this convo was on the phone, because you better believe my eyes were rolling. I’m not sure how a 20 minute booty call here and there in the past severed as intimacy, but there you have it.

I do think he wants that with me, but he has no clue how to fix it or get to that point. And I think he’s got plenty of stuff to figure out within himself without worrying about that. I of course am just letting it all be. Let him figure it out and then see where I am when he does.

There is an expiration date. I have a pretty good idea when it is. But, he also tends to change things up. I can see him being at a place to move on D, once his parents visit is over. I can see him pushing me over the edge. I really don’t have any expectations that reconciliation will happen or will happen anytime soon. There are just too many things that would be hard to deal with in a R mindset, so hard to even think about that.

I really despise his need to spend hours and hours and hours with his friends, and so very little time with his kids. He would spend more time with the kids if we were D, and that’s pretty ironic to me. That’s something I really hope will change through this process. Right now I realize that in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years’ time, it's very unlikely that I will spend any time with the friends I’m spending time with now. Especially the crowd I would deem "his friends" And I won’t have any regrets about the time I didn’t spend with them. I’m realizing that my oldest is at the halfway mark of when he will be out of the house, and it feels like yesterday I was bringing him home from the hospital. My boys are the only ones I even care about spending time with. That's where I know I will have regrets. I already feel that this last year has taken way too much time away from them.

Hey Raine!

You are an incredibly insightful person and I appreciate how you journal your updates.

Remember me posting on T's thread some time ago that the LBS need to show the way to the MLCers by being their mentors on what a marriage is all about after all those replays are done and over with. This is where you're gonna need to slap on the mentor hat with your H.

Here's one example:

There has been hinting from him. Hinting that he is going through withdrawals from ow1. He said because he needs that "intimacy" and he said, "I can’t have that with you, can I?

To aid H through this process, you might want to use open-ended questions so he can discover the answers and you can learn more about his thought process. "H, thanks for sharing it with me. I am curious to know what would entail "intimacy" to you and how that would look to you?" Next time this subject [or any other topic] is brought up by H, remember to use open-ended questions to draw out answers and his perspective on those issues.

I really despise his need to spend hours and hours and hours with his friends, and so very little time with his kids. He would spend more time with the kids if we were D, and that’s pretty ironic to me. That’s something I really hope will change through this process.

I think it is a valid and legitimate concern you have right there. Your H seems to be more and more receptive to talking some stuff with you. When the time is right, I think it would be good for you to state your concerns about his lack of time with the children and how you can get him to step things up a bit. A good way do to his is to "assign" him to do stuff such as putting in a nice 'request' to H to take the kids out to the local park so you will have uninterrupted time at home doing laundry or some chore. Then reward him with this "good" behavior by positive reinforcement through WOA.

You might want to do this in small increments so H does not feel overwhelmed with 1,001 requests. Go ahead and do a test drive on this one.

I think he is pretty worried that I might be making moves to file. He approached me (unlocked the door and came in) within minutes of hearing I needed a notary, and was worried and wondering why. It was for a different matter.

Bottom line, H is scared to lose you and is not yet fully baked. Plus things are now cut off with OW1 or OW2, H is probably feeling "lost" as to his exact role in the house and I'm thinking he needs some gentle nudges here and there to point him in the right direction.

Hi Raine!

Just checking up on you? Are things still moving? I know it seems slow but at least it's positive!

Raine "He has developed a new "friendship" with someone safe. Married, young, and clueless and she views him as a friend. She does not flirt back at all. I don’t see this going anywhere, but I do see his persistent need to mentor, be superior, be adored, and be flirtatious. This girl seems to really like me and wants to hang around me, but I’m so done with the high school vibe. And it’s hard to be around someone he is more open with than me. It’s hard to be around her and her husband and watching my H touch her on the arm to get her attention and talk to her. I’m letting it go. Whatever the crap is for why he needs this kind of friendship or whatever it is, I hope he can get it worked out. I know he is trying super hard to keep the boundaries and I also know if I raised any issue, he would cut the girl out. My problem, like with everything else, is that decision and action has to come from him.

Just catching up Raine, and oh how it pained my heart to read this. I know how you feel, it is so painful to see your H develop the sort of friendship and give the companionship and attention that should be going to YOU to some young chick! But Raine, I think the need for attention and admiration is very strong in our MLCers. And at least your H is respecting your boundaries, and has befriended a dopey young married girl, and has introduced you. I agree that you should let it be your H's decision whether to cut her out or not, he will in time, when he gets stronger and saner. Try not to let it hurt you Raine.

Wonka "To aid H through this process, you might want to use open-ended questions so he can discover the answers and you can learn more about his thought process. "H, thanks for sharing it with me. I am curious to know what would entail "intimacy" to you and how that would look to you?" Next time this subject [or any other topic] is brought up by H, remember to use open-ended questions to draw out answers and his perspective on those issues."

Thanks for this Wonka! I have been waiting and waiting for a chance to being my H's mentor on what a marriage is all about after his replays are done and over with. Not happening yet as you know! But this is a very useful technique to use NOW, and not only with my H, I think this could apply to many conversations. Thanks Wonka you are a dear!

So how are things otherwise Raine? How are you tolerating your inlaws invasion?