To be fair one of the primary tenants of Christianity is forgiveness. The bottom line is that you talked to the church about not welcoming her back because you felt uncomfortable. But this is a church she's worshipped at for years.
Even though she may not have been fair in your eyes, doesn't mean that you need to stoop to that level. Either way, you have kids together and if you don't want them to learn anger and resentment in their relationships, you are going to have to learn how to get along with W and I think especially in a place where they teach forgiveness.
The church is a good safe place for healing to take place. You have a choice to be the bigger man or not.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
//Stoop to that level// //learn anger and resentment// //You have a choice to the be the bigger man//
I have given this a couple of days to think through and talk about with some close/wise friends.
My conclusion is that you have a distorted view of boundaries. Setting up a legitimate boundary has nothing to do with anger, or forgiveness. You're criticism of me is unwarranted.
My W is being asked to leave the church because she has rejected the teachings of the church. She has abandoned her marriage, and she has made her attendance there untenable. For some reason, you want to make this about me. The reality is that this is her choice and it carries with it natural consequences.
When you behave in ways that destroy a relationship, the result is separation. This is what is happening with my W and I, my W and the church, and ultimately, my W and God. My W needs to make changes to repair those relationships, not me.
Somehow, you believe that there is something noble about subjecting myself to the emotional pain of seeing my W at church. You want me to deny that my feelings are real or legitimate. Or, maybe you think I have some kind of switch I can turn to just stop feeling the way I do. I have no idea why you believe this. At some point, it may be possible to attend the same church as my W, but not anytime soon.
These emotions will take time to work through. That does not mean I am "losing the war" or that I am an angry person who does not understand forgiveness. It just means that I have been deeply hurt and need time and space to work toward forgiveness and a new R with my W..
Having my W find a new church is a good starting point in that direction.
I pulled my hamstring at soccer tonight. Looks like I am done for at least the next game. On a positive note, we won 2-0 and are now in first place in the division. I hated having to watch the second half from the bench.
I stayed later than usual drinking beers with the guys. When I went home, since my leg was hurting, I took a hot tub. My W stayed in the bathroom the entire time. I had a few beers in me and was more honest than I had been in the past.
I told her how hurt I was and how badly I wanted this divorce. I told her how committed I was to this relationship and that I never would never have left her. I told her that the OM is using her and how much hurt the infedelity had caused. I told her how obvious everything was and that even though I have not talked to the kids that I can't imagine that they don't see the same things I do.
She denied everything and just continued to lie. When I was done with my bath, I got up, got dressed and went to bed. She was still there. I don't understand why she stayed for my venting. But then again, I don't understand anything she is doing.
Hopeully the D paperwork will be ready soon. I mentioned to my W that I was hoping to have this done by Oct. 1st and she said that there is no way it could be done earlier than Jan. I can't live with her any longer. As soon as the paperwork is signed, I am moving out. Let her have the life she wants, just leave me out of it.
Hamstring injuries normally mean 2 – 3 weeks out for me, I hope yours heals quickly.
Originally Posted By: RockJC
She denied everything and just continued to lie. When I was done with my bath, I got up, got dressed and went to bed. She was still there. I don't understand why she stayed for my venting. But then again, I don't understand anything she is doing.
MLC cycling, confusion etc. we will never understand, even when it’s all over.
"My conclusion is that you have a distorted view of boundaries."
I think you missed the point. I wasn't talking about boundaries. I was talking about forgiveness. Forgiveness which a church usually teaches. The boundary is your own personal one.
"Setting up a legitimate boundary has nothing to do with anger, or forgiveness. You're criticism of me is unwarranted."
Also, wrong. I didn't "criticize" you. I said you had the opportunity to be the bigger man in all this. It's your choice to do it or not. No one said you had to.
"My W is being asked to leave the church because she has rejected the teachings of the church."
And yet she still wanted to go. FWIW, you can believe it or not, something inside her may be telling her it's wrong and so she's still seeking answers. I've seen that in so many people going through this. But again, it's just my two cents.
"She has abandoned her marriage, and she has made her attendance there untenable. For some reason, you want to make this about me."
Not really. You made this about you. You brought it up to the church. I get it. I understand the hurt, the anger the blow to the pride. I get all that.
"The reality is that this is her choice and it carries with it natural consequences."
True but I don't think you see that this is a consequence that you are causing. It's not "natural". A natural consequence is if your kids start having problems or if you lose your home, etc.
"When you behave in ways that destroy a relationship, the result is separation."
Not all the time.
"This is what is happening with my W and I, my W and the church, and ultimately, my W and God."
Yes this is HER journey. But you pushed the church issue. In a way it's a form of control over her by you.
"My W needs to make changes to repair those relationships, not me."
Yes she does. But you have a choice to not break those relationships that she does have.
"Somehow, you believe that there is something noble about subjecting myself to the emotional pain of seeing my W at church. You want me to deny that my feelings are real or legitimate."
Of course not. But see how you said it was all your W's fault for causing all this and it has nothing to do with you, yet in the same post you talk about how you were hurt, etc.
Again, I get it. Hell all of us do.
"Or, maybe you think I have some kind of switch I can turn to just stop feeling the way I do. I have no idea why you believe this."
Believe it or not, you do. It's called choice. I went through the same problems as you, although it was with my W and work. I had a choice to have her and her OM fired. Heck he even threatened me over my job. But I chose not to. As much as it hurt my pride and kids, I decided not to. It doesn't make a person weak or stronger than another. It's just a choice.
And believe it or not, there are many who have faced the EXACT same problem you have. On here and dozens of other forums and real life situations. Joe Beam is a great Christian counselor on this matter.
" At some point, it may be possible to attend the same church as my W, but not anytime soon. These emotions will take time to work through. That does not mean I am "losing the war" or that I am an angry person who does not understand forgiveness. It just means that I have been deeply hurt and need time and space to work toward forgiveness and a new R with my W."
So again you talk about yourself even though you specifically said..." Setting up a legitimate boundary has nothing to do with anger, or forgiveness."
"Having my W find a new church is a good starting point in that direction."
Again, that's up to you. Personally I don't think it's going to help much, because it ends up you punishing her. And regardless if you listen to this or not. It's not a criticism. There are certain things you can handle and some you can't. You're protecting yourself from getting hurt and betrayed again. I get it.
And again, you have a choice to do as you wish. There are times that I personally don't think that people should involve God in all this because tolerance and forgiveness was the one thing that He taught above all else. Like the prodigal son and other examples. But that's just my opinion.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I have to see it again or I will get the names wrong. I was very idealistic at that age, but I saw things as black & white too. And I was very sarcastic, but laughed hard, a lot...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"My conclusion is that you have a distorted view of boundaries."
I think you missed the point. I wasn't talking about boundaries. I was talking about forgiveness. Forgiveness which a church usually teaches. The boundary is your own personal one.
"Setting up a legitimate boundary has nothing to do with anger, or forgiveness. You're criticism of me is unwarranted."
Also, wrong. I didn't "criticize" you. I said you had the opportunity to be the bigger man in all this. It's your choice to do it or not. No one said you had to.
"My W is being asked to leave the church because she has rejected the teachings of the church."
And yet she still wanted to go. FWIW, you can believe it or not, something inside her may be telling her it's wrong and so she's still seeking answers. I've seen that in so many people going through this. But again, it's just my two cents.
"She has abandoned her marriage, and she has made her attendance there untenable. For some reason, you want to make this about me."
Not really. You made this about you. You brought it up to the church. I get it. I understand the hurt, the anger the blow to the pride. I get all that.
"The reality is that this is her choice and it carries with it natural consequences."
True but I don't think you see that this is a consequence that you are causing. It's not "natural". A natural consequence is if your kids start having problems or if you lose your home, etc.
Rock, I was so disappointed to see you expose our w's behavior to the church to get her kicked out, and then do the SAME thing with the camping friends.
This is like when you posted about her on FB. You really don't get it. I mean that...you learned nothing & still think this is about you being "right"!
We were aghast when you shared your dirty laundry with others. Tell yourself what you want, rationalize it all you can (which is what you accuse your w of doing so it really is both of you)
The fact is you wanted to punish her. To shame her. Yes I think the Scarlett letter is exactly what you would like to give her.
You SAY all the things about boundaries & how unfair it is to you, but the bottom line is you have no forgiveness or compassion for her, and you really are blaming her for all of this, and trying to shame her. All the euphemisms in the world won't hide that.
These vindictive actions of yours are Not coming from a place of empathy or compassion, but from the desire to PUNISH her.
It's NOT your job to "teach her a lesson", or show her the consequences of her actions.
Life does that...this basic lesson was hard for me.
But you have now done three separate acts designed purely to harm her reputation & make you a victim.
It's not healthy self respect causing this: it's a vindictive act caused by a wounded ego. There's a difference.
Down deep, if you were really honest with yourself (& removed your pride from the picture for just two minutes, you would see this).
Ironically, you also took over God's role. Because who knows what she might have learned or felt, had you left it up to Him?
Maybe a guilty conscience or a feeling of being a hypocrite coud have seeped into her, had you done nothing.
Now, that can't happen because you have once again denied her the chance to discover anything on her own, because you keep trying to force her to confess all her sins & declare you the moral victor.
You force her to defend her choices, which furthers cements them for her. She cannot have second thoughts or doubts because you keep attacking her in ways she must defend!
Rock, these acts do NOT reflect well on YOU. I truly wish you could see that.
My high school reunion is approaching. I am in charge of our FB page for the class & evidently only I can delete messages. Awhile back someone asked me to check the page & delete some messages that were "very inappropriate."
I did. The messages were from a LBW whose h had left for OW in our class.
I deleted the messages. My point?
No one thought more highly of the lbw.
We just thought she was trying to embarrass her h, which was obvious. Some pitied her.
Do you believe people now think that much less of your w? Really?
Best case scenario for you is that you are pitied, but seen as too weak to handle the reality your w left you.
Or worse, you are seen as a punitive, controlling man, whose w had every reason to leave...
You should & could have handled this much better.
Since its a repeat of your past behaviors, none of which are DB ways and none of which yielded positive results (!!), I worry about how far off the path you are going.
"When you behave in ways that destroy a relationship, the result is separation."
Not all the time.
"This is what is happening with my W and I, my W and the church, and ultimately, my W and God."
Yes this is HER journey. But you pushed the church issue. In a way it's a form of control over her by you.
"My W needs to make changes to repair those relationships, not me."
Yes she does. But you have a choice to not break those relationships that she does have.
"Somehow, you believe that there is something noble about subjecting myself to the emotional pain of seeing my W at church. You want me to deny that my feelings are real or legitimate."
Of course not. But see how you said it was all your W's fault for causing all this and it has nothing to do with you, yet in the same post you talk about how you were hurt, etc.
Again, I get it. Hell all of us do.
"Or, maybe you think I have some kind of switch I can turn to just stop feeling the way I do. I have no idea why you believe this."
Believe it or not, you do. It's called choice. I went through the same problems as you, although it was with my W and work. I had a choice to have her and her OM fired. Heck he even threatened me over my job. But I chose not to. As much as it hurt my pride and kids, I decided not to. It doesn't make a person weak or stronger than another. It's just a choice.
And believe it or not, there are many who have faced the EXACT same problem you have. On here and dozens of other forums and real life situations. Joe Beam is a great Christian counselor on this matter.
" At some point, it may be possible to attend the same church as my W, but not anytime soon. These emotions will take time to work through. That does not mean I am "losing the war" or that I am an angry person who does not understand forgiveness. It just means that I have been deeply hurt and need time and space to work toward forgiveness and a new R with my W."
So again you talk about yourself even though you specifically said..." Setting up a legitimate boundary has nothing to do with anger, or forgiveness."
"Having my W find a new church is a good starting point in that direction."
Again, that's up to you. Personally I don't think it's going to help much, because it ends up you punishing her. And regardless if you listen to this or not. It's not a criticism. There are certain things you can handle and some you can't. You're protecting yourself from getting hurt and betrayed again. I get it.
And again, you have a choice to do as you wish. There are times that I personally don't think that people should involve God in all this because tolerance and forgiveness was the one thing that He taught above all else. Like the prodigal son and other examples. But that's just my opinion.
Bond makes MANY good points. I didn't see the cause for anger in you, that you seem to feel. Maybe i missed something.
Anyhow I sure hope you will heed his words or mine, or someone who is Not focussing on their pain and egging you on with more rationalizations.
People who focus on their pain & how unfair it all is, how wronged they have been, are not in a position to give out healthy advice.
would expect W to have me as a guest but i had to get things and food from the kitchen myself for dinner just like old times. in.[/b]
Label it, euphemise it, disguise it if you must, but most of us see thru that.
At least you concede you needed to be a better dad, and are now stepping up to the plate as a father.
In your next r with a woman, if you were to remarry someday,
Would you do Anything differently? I mean,
how have YOU CHANGED, AS A POTENTIAL H?
Also consider this:
"when you hold onto anger to hurt someone else, it's like lighting yourself on fire,
To get smoke in their eyes."
you are burning yourself more than you realize. The FB post you sent to "close friends" sent her fleeing from you - at a time when you still wanted to reconcile.
So maybe now you think you have nothing to Lose by trying to humiliate her.
But what have you gained?
I SO wish you could see this, how we see this...you are lighting yourself on fire. Maybe it "felt good" for a short time, but it's unbecoming and your kids will be horrified when they realize the truth. It's as if you think you have to point out what your w is doing, as if everyone else needs reminding because they're too stupid & blind to see it.
But you are the blind one here, I'm afraid. This is at least the third time you have gone directly against DB advice in a big way.
Rock, you are better than this, aren't you?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
There is so much in these posts that I disagree with.
//I SO wish you could see this, how we see this// I just can't, because I think your perceptions of my situation are wrong. This is not a knee jerk defensive reaction. I have given this tremendous thought. I have talked with many people, including professional counselors. I have listened to your comments and heard what you have to say.
I am not a bitter angry person who is unwilling to forgive. This is not who I am and if you think this, then you don't know me well enough. All of your comments are based on this perception, and it is just plain wrong.
I am not trying to "Punish", "Shame", or "Hurt" my W. Do I "Blame" my W? Absolutely. I think this is an honest assessment given the facts of what happened in our relationship. No amount of introspective soul searching is going to change these facts. But I have no desire to punish her. Again, you're perception about my motives is not accurate.
The truth is that I love my W. I pray for her everyday. I want to have a good co-parenting relationship with her. I want her to have a strong, healthy relationship with our kids. I want her to work through the emotional issues she is dealing with and find happiness. I want all of these things. But, for these things to happen, she needs to want them to, and make the changes necessary for them to happen.
If my actions were being done out of spite and bitterness, then I would agree with you. But they are not. These are very reasonable boundaries.
//what have you gained// I have gained space. I was able to go camping without the constant stress of dealing with my W. I gained freedom. I was able to make all decisions related to my kids for a weekend without being second guessed or challenged by my W. Hopefully, I will gain detachment and a truly separate life. Setting boundaries like this is about me and building a new life without her.
//In your next r with a woman, if you were to remarry someday, Would you do Anything differently? I mean, how have YOU CHANGED, AS A POTENTIAL H?//
I expect I will be remarried, but not anytime soon. I have given myself a 1 yr after the D before I even start dating. So, I will have plenty of time to think this through.
There are some things that come to mind right off the bat.
1) Focus on improved communication - This is a complicated topic, but a lot of my communication was dysfunctional. I want to address issues more up front, and eliminate some of my personal bad habits (complaining, nagging, yelling, etc...).
2) Establish clear boundaries - I let my W walk all over me. I was so worried about how she would react to setting boundaries, that i didn't set any. This lack of boundaries was not healthy for our relationship. I need to learn how to set boundaries. Again, this is complicated, but I am reading and practicing.
3) Don't lose myself - My life was 100% centered on my family and my W. In my next relationship, I am going to maintain a healthy independence.
4) Communicate about agreed on marital expectations prior to marriage - I want to find a woman who has the same expectations and values as me with respect to parenting, finances, religion, sex, etc.. If there are issues with me that she expects changed, I want to know what they are and work on changing them before we enter a committed relationship. The reality is that I had no idea what I was getting into when I got married. I am wiser now.
5) Keep fit and attractive - I had let myself go physically, and in my dress and mannerisms. My W deserved better. My new W will get better.
6) Control my finances - I let my W have complete control over our finances. The result was that she took everything I earned for granted and resented any spending. I want more control and financial independence in my next R.
