I am kind of confused right now ....I used to be so sure of myself and decisions....before all this crap happened last year. Although I've gained a lot of ground for myself, interests, work, life in general...when it comes to this R, I feel like a mush-head. Uncertain, so much of the time.
Wiley thought I should act confident...almost like I'll be fine...giving him permission to separate. LL and T2 are encouraging me to be more honest, to say that this is not my choice on how to resolve our M....but yet not cross the fine line to push him further away. UGH....this is hard. H has said on many occaisions, that he has to figure his own stuff out, what he wants...before he's even willing to think about working on M. He thought life was too easy, we do maintenaance well, we get along fine, living in limbo the past 6+ months...but H has not made any progress in his personal well being or happiness.
So what to do. I'm floundering right now. I work this evening, so we probably won't talk much until tomorrow morning...that's his best time.
I know I'll be ok in the long run. I'vemade an appt with my C for Wed afternoon....she's great, from Michele's office. This is a significant 2-3 weeks coming up. He may be out by March 1st.
Ideas, thoughts...anyone??
I'm becoming overly obsessed with trying to save this...
I know how you are struggling with this and I'm sorry that you even have to deal with it, but it is what it is..
An earlier poster referenced that perhaps no matter what you say, it may not keep your h from leaving. You yourself have repeated time and time again..
Quote: He has said on many occassions, that he has to figure his own stuff out, what he wants, before he's even willing to think about working on the M.
Now, you can either "believe none of what they say" or whatever, or LISTEN to what he says he needs, and support his choice. You can tell him how you really feel if you want, its probably not going to change his mind, because he is BENT on leaving. If he bugs you to let him know what you feel, you can tell him if that makes you feel better. But saving the M won't hinge on telling him you think its wrong for him to leave, because he'll leave anyway. Again, if it were me, and I'm no expert, I would bite the proverbial bullet and if he presses I'd say something like..
"Look, as I've said before, I'm not sure what I feel, LIKE YOU, I've got some of my own issues to resolve. And allthough part of me PREFERS we stay together and work things out, if I'm REALLY LISTENING to what you're saying to me, it sounds like you NEED to be apart for awhile to find out what it is that YOU want, before we can work on the M again. Allthough it makes me sad to hear it, I don't want to stand in your way, if LEAVING is what YOU think is best. Now, if I'm not understanding your position or reacting in a manner you'd like, please help me clear it up, so THAT WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE..."
To me, something along those lines lets Mooka's H know that she would like it if he stayed, but being a sacrificing W, she is willing to let him go, if thats WHAT HE FEELS is whats best for now..
If you look at many of the "success' stories on the BB, one of the more recurring themes from a returning WA's point of view, was that the LBS, did not stand in their way of seperating and/or wanting a D. That was a common denominator, and I can certainly understand why.
I don't know how she comes off being any more supportive and STRONG than that.
We all know that Seperation isn't what we want, thats painfully obvious. But if the WA is going to go that route regardless, sometimes its best not to resist, and live to save the M another day..
Mooka, do what you feel is best, you know him inside and out. Just don't be afraid, things happen for a reason, look for the silver lining, usually there is one..
Hi Mooka, Oi ... I have read thru your thread and thought I had posted before this ... I must be losing it!
Should he move out or shouldn't? Sounds like your H is still pondering over his “Shakespearean” dilemma ... from a DBing standpoint one doesn't seem to have an advantage over the other ... both have pros & cons ... they are different approaches and it really comes down the individual sitch.
In my case (just so you have a point of reference that a sitch can turn around without the WAS actually moving out), CAW had an apartment all lined up to move into (that the OM owned! ) date was set and all! Since the apartment had to be renovated before she could move in, the process took a few weeks. I took the stance (similar to what T2 & LL said), that if she really felt she need to move out, I would not stand in her way, but I also let her know it is not the choice I was hoping she would make. I went on to say how I had hoped we would find a way to sort thru the issues without to create two households especially for our daughter's sake. I assured her I was willing to give her as much space as she needed to take to work on her own issues. I did however draw one boundary that I told her was a deal breaker and that was moving out to pursue a continuing R with OM. I simply told her that was a line if she crossed I just didn't think we could recover from (... a point of no return). ... when all was said and done (short version) ... she had made the choice to work on M without moving out.
You did some marvelous DBing over the weekend. You handled your presence in front of him admirabley and your responses during the R-ralks were wonderful. I agree with T2 & LL (Sorry but I didn't get to read any other responses), that at least once, you should express your side, so he does know exactly where you stand, but don't go as far as trying to interfere with his decision.
One advantage of having the spouse stay that I want to point out is it does give you the greatest exposure to WAS to see your changes and more importantly help convince them that they will remain consistant & permanent. On the other hand, the 180 that may have the greatest impact on WAS to shows how different you really are ... is letting them go.
I would continue to DB in increments ... focus on yourself ... be his friend ... be supportive & validate ... invite him to share some good times together (and make sure you have a good time even when he declines) ... give space and loving detach when needed ... and if/when it comes time ... let him go.
Quote: Feeling kind of sad today....but will exercise, work some, and see some friends for a distraction from all this.
You seem to know how to plant yourself firmly on the ground during this helluva rollercoaster ride in limboland park ... that's how we can tell ... you ARE gonna be OK thru this.
You all 3 answered my prayers today...... THANK YOU for the support and wisdom, coming from REAL life experience. You are the best.
I came home from work and hopped right on to find this wonderful support and even the words to back me up (thanks Wiley...I am floundering for words at times, lately) KAW, I was hunting all over to read about your Sitch today....how ironic that you came to my post and gave me a quick, but significant overview of your sitch. I had read many of your responses and was very curious where you came from....and sensed you moving in a very positive direction. It's so great to hear from you and Wiley.....the male perspective is so insightful. LL and Sue have been down a very similiar road and are also my inspiration.
H has not returned home from work. When he presses me, I feel much more sure of my footing....to continue DBing, but be forthright with my thoughts. If he needs the separation, so be it. I know I will be fine. I feel your presence/experience and God's support, they are intertwined. Right now, I feel better than I have for the last few days. Thanks again
I do appreciate you sincere concern and guidance....it has a huge impact.
Well.....I really did it this morning....I may have blown it some, H is not a happy camper. Here's the latest: Last night H and I exercised, had dinner, wine, and were relaxing on the couch, watching TV. It had the potential of getting cozy.... HOWEVER as we were watching an episode of Law & Order-dealing with a husband that had an affair and basically screwed up 2 families and 3 kids....I was making comments throughout about the poor kids. He said a few times, it's only a story/TV. Then at the end of the show, I responded with some internal anger to the man in the show....and how sad it all was. H bristled, got up and went to bed. That's when I realized how I had slipped and in a sense brought up "our" history. I stayed downstairs, sobbed some, fell asleep, then finally went up to bed.
Ok...there's more:
I woke up at 4:30am....this totally bugging me....prayed briefly, read some posts, then went downstairs on the tredmill to sweat a bit. He got ready for work, came down, talked briefly about my anger at the show last night...and how that really put him off. Said he needed a check for a deposit today for the apt he is considering. I said (bad timing on my part....should not have R talks before he heads of to his "high" pressure job)....but I said....
"I have had a few more thought about you moving out. I am trying really hard to understand your need to figure yourself out and what you really want in all aspects of your life. I'm trying really hard to get that and want you to find happiness again, I really do. I had wished we could do this in the same household and not separate. Though in a way, this may be helpful for me, too. " He listened calmly.
Then I said I had another issue relating to his moving out...."I do have a boundary (stole some of your words KAW) here....that if part of your reason to separate it to pursue a R with another woman....than we may not recover from that. I did not want to go there again."
He sat quietly....and nodded. I asked for a response. He said, "I need to get away and sort all this through....I see that you are giving me an ultimatum, and that you are not flexible or openminded about my decision."
On the way to the train I asked< "so am I to understand that you think I should be open-minded and flexible if you choose to pursue another R?"
He ended the conversation by saying,"if either one of us choose to pursue another R, we should be clear with each other and understand that it means we no longer are willing to deal with our M. He went onto say, "I am now certain, after last night and this morning that finding my own place is the right thing to do. I need to sort through if I have any feeling for you, separate from being the mother of our children, etc. I am really questioning, seriously if we could ever have love and passion for one another again. In the future, I see us as planning any time together for quality discussion/time that we choose to have together."
So....I'm not really upset....maybe a bit numb...more puzzled in some ways and clearer in the fact, that I don't believe he is leaving to pursue another R. Am I fooling myself....was I stupid to put up the boundary? I know Wiley's suggestion may not have pushed him away, like I think I did. But in my heart of hearts.....I don't want to wonder about OW in his life. That's probably a pretty lousy DBing attitude. I am speaking with my C this afternoon...she'll give me a talking to.
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to give you the short ... short version.
The reason I had stated that boundary was because CAW had mentioned possibly seeing where R goes with OM as a reason for the seperation, but that she still wanted us to be friends. However, your H's interpretation of your statement as an ultimatum was pretty much the same as CAW's. I said to her, I didn't mean for her to take it as such, beause that wasn't the intent of my statemtent. Just that I wanted her to understand that I do feel strongly that our M can be saved, but if she continued down the path to pursue R with OM that I don't think I could feel the same way.
Keep in mind, that any opinion you have in opposition to theirs will not be received positively, but they will weigh what you say very carefully afterwards. It may sound like you are pushing him away, but its a normal WAS reflex kicking in. No WAS is ever gonna respond "Oh, I see your point. What was I thinking?" Even so, you want to attempt for your statements to be received as neutral as possible. So you don't want to give the impression that you are forcing your opinions on him, which is why it is sooo important not to be the one that initiates R talks. Wait until he opens the door, such as asking for how you feel. Follow his lead and stay on the topic he brings up. Start with validating with what he says and then include your thoughts with the use of "I" statements to avoid agrueements and to clear up any confusion or misinterpretations.
Hang in there (((Mooka))), and bear in mind that your H is gonna need plenty of space and time to do his "thinking", so try to give him as much as possible. Keep putting feelers out there to test the waters ... if he seems receptive, invite him to share in your activities ... if not or he declines, be OK with his choice and give him his space.
Since you mentioned you were hunting for my threads this will get you there ... Are the Pieces Really Coming Together?. Following the links will get you to my first thread (Get out of jail FREE!) where the first post pretty much sums up "where I'm coming from" ... but keep in mind the particulars that works for one person doesn't mean it will work for another. You want to try to understand the concept behind the actions / words and find the actions you can take in your sitch enforce the same concepts. Hope that makes sense?
Hey KAW.....Thanks for the quick response and words of wisdom. I keep trying the "quote" thing....but I'm challenged that way, I guess, can't make it work.
You made me feel better already. I've really been questioning and re-visiting last night and this morning's conversation with H. UGH! Luckily, I had to work hard this morning, so had a chance to distract myself some.
Thanks for helping me put H's responses in perspective...of course he's not going to "see it my way.." I did try to emphasize that this separation may have a silver lining.
I have a coaching session with my C today at 3pm....I will get back to the BB with updates and new goals.
Today, I really feel as though I've lost some ground....those emotions are dangerous and get in the way of sticking to DBing and being solution oriented.
You know, you are driving me bananas.. How come you said all that stuff?? You KNOW better than that, cuz not ONE good thing could have come from it. You don't need to establish "boundaries", you don't need to indirectly compare a tv show with your sitch, you don't need to express your feeleings unless he asks you to, you DEFINITELY DO NOT WANT TO BRING UP OW AT THIS TIME. All that leads to is your H validating in his own mind that LEAVING is the right thing to do...thus..
Quote: I am now certain after last night and this morning that finding my own place is the right thing to do. I am really questioning, seriously if we could ever have love and passion for each other again.
I'm no genius, but it sounds to me like before all this happened, he may not have made up his mind to go. Partly because you WERE WILLING TO LET HIM GO AND NOT STAND IN HIS WAY IF THATS WHAT HE FELT WAS THE BEST THING FOR HIM AT THIS TIME., and that made him think. Now, he feels pressured, and of course under pressure, THEY WILL RUN..
I'm not gonna say I told you so, but yes, had you just simply said what I suggested, I GUARANTEE, you do not end up with a "bristling H".
Anyway, its said and done, so now you just STOP discussing it and let him do what he's going to do, and go back to doing what works: Giving Space, letting him initiate R talk, NO PRESSURE, NO ASSUMING ABOUT OW, AGREE WITH WHATEVER HE SEES IS WRONG, and act HAPPY, CONFIDENT, CALM along with sticking to that set of goals you made for yourself.
If you haven't read "Love Must BE Tough", by James Dobson I highly recommend it, it deals specifically on how to handle a WA that is pulling away, what works and what never does..
Just leave the sitch to itself for a few days Mooka, and let things settle..NO PRESSURE..just take care of yourself.
....I used to be so sure of myself and decisions....before all this crap happened last year. Although I've gained a lot of ground for myself, interests, work, life in general...when it comes to this R, I feel like a mush-head. Uncertain, so much of the time.
) date was set and all! Since the apartment had to be renovated before she could move in, the process took a few weeks. I took the stance (similar to what T2 & LL said), that if she really felt she need to move out, I would not stand in her way, but I also let her know it is not the choice I was hoping she would make. I went on to say how I had hoped we would find a way to sort thru the issues without to create two households especially for our daughter's sake. I assured her I was willing to give her as much space as she needed to take to work on her own issues. I did however draw one boundary that I told her was a deal breaker and that was moving out to pursue a continuing R with OM. I simply told her that was a line if she crossed I just didn't think we could recover from (... a point of no return). ... when all was said and done (short version) ... she had made the choice to work on M without moving out.
