It's a fine line... so don't feel you need to transfer my stuff over to your sitch. My H is not P/A with everyone--just me and his mother. Everyone else gets the Rock of Gibraltar.
Yes, I do think your H could have been setting you up. He might not see that he does it, though. Our 1999 MC had a difficult time getting Mr. W. to understand what a "set up" really meant. For the longest time, I just thought he was being deliberately obtuse. Now I see that he just doesn't get this.
Many people wouldn't see your behaviors as pushy. But I guess it doesn't mean much where your H was concerned. Maybe you were, maybe you weren't. You can only own up to your own stuff, but the rest is his.
Don't be too quick to assume all the blame, friend. He does have some big responsibility here. Sure you can analyize this until the cows come home and wonder if you might have changed things if you had reacted differently.
Maybe and maybe not.
But things are where they are right now because he chose not to believe that you could tackle the problems together. That was not your choice, and we both know it. He chose to leave rather than to confront.
So who's the bad guy? Neither. But he's not innocent either. Give yourself a big pat on the back for doing this DB thing twice in your M. You deserve it.
Big hugs.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Well, maybe having the kids for awhile might give her some space and time to think. At least you'll have your kids with you and keeping you from obsessing too much about my evil twin.
Yep, I hear the weather is supposed to turn early next week. We're due, and I don't really mind--after all, it IS winter. What I really hate is spring snow. It sucks. My bday is in April, and it's snowed on that day for the past few years... last year, I came back from MT and it was snowing like a banshee. Mr. W. was being a complete a*hole and my girls were fighting like war enemies. It was a hideous birthday, and the snow didn't help.
Someone PLEASE send a memo so that I get a nice birthday this year!
What are you complaining about, Mr. California? Your flowers are going to be in bloom in March... and yes, I'm jealous. I really miss CA most of the year.
Keep smiling.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Last night went fine! I stalked Brian at Borders and we headed over to the Brew Pub early, before Beren got there.
A few beers and snacks later, we disbanded and headed home. Silly? Um, no. So far, meeting others on the board usually means discussing in person what we discuss on the board. We usually share other things that have not crossed the keyboard.
It's very much worthwhile. So get your behinds out here and we can do the same! Looks like another gorgeous day here, BTW.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
While everyone here seems to be patting you on the back and dissing Mr. W. I find myself with a totally different take on some of this.
Please note I said SOME.
While everyone wants to be supportive and encouraging, sometimes the best thing a friend can do is to "call it like it is"....which means not always tell you the things you want to hear.
I am here now to tell you some things they will not.
As I mentioned I was catching up on your posts and I read over the last four days on your "place" and then read them again slowly, taking notes. Something wasn't right and I went to sleep trying to not give it much thought but there was a nagging little voice in my head...
Well, as soon as my eyes popped open it came roaring into my head and I prayed about it until I knew exactly what I needed to say to you. EXACTLY.
But saying this runs the risk of hurting you....Now I know you are strong and smart and hundred other great qualities and nobody likes to hear bad things about themselves, especially from someone they consider a confidant or friend and I am hoping you count me in those numbers.
Still if someone doesn't tell you this ....then all you are going to hear is "atta girl"....and I don't think that alone will get you to your goal.
Many times over the last few months you have been able to steer me in a direction I needed to go.....it is really your gift. I know I probably don't share that gift, but to not try would seems wrong. I care enough to risk hurting you rather than stay silent and fail to point out things which I think you actually WANT TO KNOW.
So here's the 2x4..... 1/22/03 post about Mr. W "news".
You were being tested and you failed my friend.
Mr. W get's comfortable enough with you to tell you about his move.
Now I can't imagine how very MUCH he wanted to tell you(so much he must have had to REALLY work on this)....or how much he DIDN't want to have to tell you!(CAN YOU EVEN IMAGINE HIS FEAR at your reaction?)...Not to mention running the risk of hurting you or losing you!!, arousing your suspicions, and /or alienating you, when everything he is trying to do, his actions say he doesn't want to loose you !!!!!! At the very least he cared enough to be worried about your reaction!!! If he didn't care he would have just not told you or told you like YOU didn't matter...but he did....AND in a calm way.....He did NOT set you up to blow up(which he could have). You know he used to do it this way! therefore taking the focus off of himself and making it about your anger.....
He risked your anger and he told you and tried to soften it with a lot of other more ordinary stuff thrown in....that is courage my dear and he had it.
So even though he tells you " at the speed of light, and in an unintelligible mutter", he tells you.
Now would you have preferred he tell you in a loud, clear, self assured voice??? With not thought to your reaction?
No, that would have been more threatening to you.
You want it both ways don't you.....you want him humble and submissive but you also want him to stand UP to you!!!???
And what is his "reward" for this thing you perceive as bad behavior?
YOU MAKE HIM FOOD!!!! ????????
What a confusing message. You reward his bad behavior by making him not just a sandwhich, but a homemade casserole!
So he thinks things are okay. You've responded in a semi-better way than the past...at least she didn't yell and freak out he thinks to himself....and she must really want me coz she made me a casserole!!
But no...inside you are really upset...and you "call him on it"....and again he reverts back to" submissive,little, bad boy" behavior."Sorry Bets, I know you'r right bets, won't happen again bets".
BUT IT WILL.........
Because you are reinforcing it my friend.
And frankly any other way he responds to you gets him a worse reaction....so he uses known behavior...maybe not preferred...but at least he has a response for you......
Now at first he's thinking " good, she really does understand, she didn't "overreact". So he comes over and as a reward he does an act of service for you...he cleans the house and makes the bed and tells you he understands you had a sick relative bogging you down.
He would like some positive reinforcement for what he thinks is a job well done...ie: he's kept the peace between you two and made a decision that he was sure you wouldn't like.
And what do you do?
Took control again!(See the convo replay you had in the car on your cell when you called him at the office). That whole convo was about YOU!!! not about him and if you think otherwise ...you are fooling yourself.
Asking him to control the way he speaks to you!!...rather than You accepting HIM the way he is....
Does he really have to decide what he's going to say to you even more than he does now!!!!!????
He already second guesses himself on everthing he says to you.
Now let's get real here.
You do not censor everthing you say before you say it to decide how he might take it!
You said in your post, you are not mad at him for the move....!!!!!!! That is not true.
You admit to us here on the bb that you are, but you do not admit that to him!
Yes, you are mad about the move. You told him to be honest with you...and then YOU were not!!!
You even called it, "a mind blowing bomb".
So let's at least be honest....!!!!
You want him home, not moving into a bigger space it would not hurt you for him to know this. This is not a game of who can lose face first!
Now again back to the convo between you two:
So when he again explains his rationale for the move ie: more space, better rent .... When he tries to explain himself and his decision to you, what do you do?????
You cut him off..... (take control of the convo again)
YOUR rationale? It's time for you to end the convo.( oh yeah, right, no fear here)
WHY? Why, because you can't control the convo? Don't know what to say? Can't stand the heat? What!!
Please look at what you were feeling at that moment. This is a critical part of your problems.
Again what followed was you trying to take back control of the "convo" but really it was to give you back a feeling of being in control AT ALL! You telling him how you both( speaking for the two of you!) need to get rolling with the golf tournamnet..... Again an area in which you are superordinate , he is subordinate.
I think in reality you like it this way.??? With him "under" or subordinate to you all the time.....
Your quote," I don't really mind spending time teaching him.....blah blah blah...
Well how nice of you! now that you've blasted his ego into the next century telling him "how" to communicate with you you don't mind taking the little underling( guppy, fish, bait, chump, let's see what other "less than" descritption can we use here!!) and showing him how you handle the golf tournament! So he can TRY and follow your lead, live up to your reputation, satisfy your demand, meet your expectations, impress you....whatever!!......NOW WHAT A RECIPE FOR DISASTER THAT IS!!! NO WONDER HE FAILS OR DOESN'T EVEN TRY.
Geez the guy can't win.... Is there any area of your life where he "rules"?? Where his decisions carry more, or at least the same weight? Where he is he leader WITHOUT your permission???????
Please for God's sake, for your marriages sake be honest here.
You call it the : "Blasted bowling tournament"
So you DO MIND HIS LEAVING THE GIRLS WITH YOU!!!!!
Now who's being passive/aggressive????
You don't want to go along with his plan but you said okay???? to taking the girls.......Can anyone say P/A????.....But you do this without enthusiasm, you do this with hidden resentment.........You want to make sure he knows he is being a big imposition to you, but you guise it with..."I'm being cooperative". He asked you and offered to get a sub.....but you did not really come right out and tell him no!!! That would require guts and honesty...and you would much rather have an excuse to punish him! Did you not say you wanted HIM to be honest....well, well, well.....
Whenever the occasion or need for payback arise you've got "ammo".
You should have paid more attention to that horoscope you posted....read it again.......if you are the least bit brave.
Then you revert to "I don't think Mr. W is coming home anytime soon".Are you more comfortable with things that way???......I think on that you were right on....probably he won't come home any time soon.........too many traps...............................and if I were him?.............I'd be tired of always being the bad guy, always making mistakes where you are concerned, always the dupe to your "in charge, know how to do everthing right" great, person....
That's a hell of a position to be in...if he comes too close, he gets burned...if he backs off, he's a jerk.....
In response to Lyrael's post:
You did not "hold your own" in that convo, you steamrolled right over him.
1/23/03 "He's not ready to work on things"
OMG!!!!!!!??????BETSEY WTF????????????
He took it up the A** again~ "You appreciate his confusion"??????????
YOU are causing his confusion!!!!
Sure because it keeps YOU in control!!
He is NOT a SCARRED RABBIT He IS a scarred WOLF!!
He can't lead...you won't let him...and when he does make decisions for himself....you make sure he knows you are not pleased no matter what he does!
Right....pat your self for not going off on him...
You're doing it.......you're just doing it quieter AND behind his back!....can anyone say P/A!!
You have just perfected your defenses a little more...
How about telling him how vulnerable that makes you feel.???? Remember the windshield incident??? Do you really know why that worked??
Because he saw YOU with your defenses down...making an idiot of yourself. And that is OKAY!!...He saw you making a fool of yourself and he was now no longer the ONLY fool....
He doesn't neeed your bluffing......
He needs you to take the biggest risk of your life and let him see you.... warts and all, out of control, and making mistakes and embarrassed about them......TELLING HIM HOW YOU FEEL IN YOUR HEART.
Being a soft.....vulnerable...... woman........ who needs him, her man....warts and all, mistakes and all...... handling homeless bums, little girls with great needs and maybe just a little credit now and again for sticking in there...even though he hasn't been exactly accepted!
Next post: "controlling your anger"
Anger is just an emotion like any other emotion.
Do you try and "control" your happiness??? Do you try and control your sadness?
What are you afraid will happen if YOU feel anger? Who do you think you are? That you can contro, your feelings!! You can only control your responses, and from what I've seen that's gotten you into big trouble.
Controlling him, controlling you....controlling what you say..... You may call it "taking responsibility for your actions"
Who is responsible is not the question..... What are you feeling......is.
PamelaC post:
Take JUST these words from her post and think about them.....
"Honesty is not good if the perception is bad, meaning my truth is not necesarily my H's."
Raed that sentence over a few dozen times.
There is no truth......only perception
Betsey, If you never speak to me again....it will hurt really bad.... but I think you and K are just getting lost in a swirl and somebody needs to get you to see what's going on.....You have been making great strides.....but you still aren't seeing the bigger picture and I KNOW you are smart enough to figure this out...I also know someday Mr. W is going to tire of trying........because You are just so strong...and he feels so weak........
If I had to guess?? He was thinking seriously of coming home during the holiday, but knows that it still isn't working......so he was forced to make an uncomfortable decision............. A move.....
Now open your eyes and realize he doesn't know how to solve this and you do..... I know you do..... The question is.... Do you want to?
Dear Sharkie, Thanks for your always empathetic response, Betsey. I say a resounding 'ditto' to what others have just posted: you have given lots of help to the lost souls here and your honesty and your taking responsibility for your own actions is exemplary. I am sad that your H doesnt' realize what he is 'still thinking about'. But again, I feel good about your marriage getting back on track...and I was one of the ones who said this to Tony..and see what happened there?...so hopefully, my witchiness is coming back, and I am portending with accuracy. I sure hope so, girlfriend, cause you deserve it!
I think people all have the tendency to go through the ALL his blame, ALL my blame and every-point-in-between until we finally come to grips with the fact that it is the ACTION/REACTION of both partners that determine what happens. The FAULTY assumptions and skewed perceptions become the real test....and here's my thought for the day: the P/A coping mech is one of the hardest to 'break down and rebuild into something healthy'. Narcississm is the worst or so I am told by therapists. But the perceptions of the P/A personality, once they are in his brain, are SO HARD to change. My H BELIEVES (and I have no doubt about this whatsoever) that long ago I threatened to 'turn him in' if he didn't do something that he promised to do. And even tho it has been CLEARLY proven that it never happened that way at ALL....it is forever in his mind that I am disloyal. And so every action he has taken since, has MY disloyalty behind it. Is this a conscious effort to simply justify HIS disloyalty? WEll, depending on day and mood, my answer varies. But I honestly think this man is DAMAGED and he has spent 55 years HIDING that damage. I may have jolted him enough so that the HO is able to break through and help him heal. But I couldn't. My regret is that if the stars had been aligned right back when we separated the first time, we might have been able to work this all out. But he is so afraid of being found out.
Stubborn, persistant...Betsey, I like the word tenacious, and girl, my guess is that you have met your match in me if we have a tenacious R us contest. But you have channeled yours much more positively than I did...I have never given up on any fight in my whole life, but now I see where that has contributed to 'provoking' my P/A X. Of course, since he said he wanted a D, I haven't openly fought it at all....and without knowing, I 've let him do whatever he wished....and last night, I added up all the money he spent in 2001 and 2002...and HOLD ONTO YOUR BALLS AND BOOBIES: he spent $735,000 in 2001 and 2002...I don't have records for 2003 yet but I am frightened to even go there. This is over 3 times what we EVER spent in our lives, even building a 7000 sq ft home! Daughter wasn't even paying out of state tuition in those years, and I paid off the mortgage in early 2001 because of my fear of his spending so much and losing this house. Well: I am holding his feet to the fire come Fridays deposition. WISH ME LUCK.
Glad you had fun last night! Betsey,you are quite the catch my dear....if your H doesn't come to his senses soon, it is HE who will be losing something precious.
OOPS. Mea Culpa...I wrote this while cycler was posting...I never would have sent this off after such a heart wrenching, eye opening post from Cycler.
Betsey...although I read it quickly, I think that Cycler is right...and it is as if she were speaking about me. It IS all about perception and I believe that you and I don't WANT control...it is just that we married men who were internally weaker than us. I KNOW that I didnt' know this in the beginning of our R....but when I did know it, I took control in an effort to 'help'. I've been told that I enabled him to continue to play the 'weak' one and that I didnt force him to be the strong man I needed.
And we all know that if you live with a P/A long enough, you become P/A some of the time yourself.
But it is all so very difficult when we have been mortally wounded to try to see how we appear from the other side...and Betsey, you have done that big time, more than any of us. So I think what your good friend Cycler was trying to say is that,once again, your trying to HELP, to HEAL the R has caused you to take control and that a part of you still believes that your H is P/A and weak deliberately. (God knows that many things my H did WERE deliberate.) I think Cycler is trying to say that maybe in his telling you about the move he was REALLY trying to do the right thing and you interpreted that one wrong.
I don't know if Cycler also has a P/A relationship...but it is very tricky. Because some P/A guys cannot stand it when you are vulnerable...mine closes down when I am vulnerable becasue he HAS no empathy. But if your man does have empathy, then I think Cycler may be right...that his protective instincts will activate if he feels you NEED his strenght. Mine wouldn't...but I wonder about yours. I think he may need to feel that he is just as strong a man as his wife is a strong woman...So maybe Cycler is way right on this one. But as i see it, no damage done. If she is right, maybe now is the time for Betsey to let her man know WHY she was upset at hearing about the move. THat she and D9 both saw the move initially as H wanting out of the M. It is a fine line to be vulnerable but NOT needy (as Iunderstand it, they fear us needing them because they are afraid they will fail????) But if anyone can figure this out, it is you Betsey. But gee, it is awfully hard isn't it?
