Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Suckerpunch down to the wire

wow. a lot going on in your head. kinda like you have a committee.you can continue to grow and care for yourself without the divorce papers. as AS said, divorce isn't the magic bullet. read other's experience who are going through the process. it's not closure.

Thank you everyone, for the support. Just to clarify, I am making my changes for me and my daughter. My point was simply that W would not care, nor will she come back regardless of the changes. It was just an observation. I am STILL going to work on being a better person.

I am also feeling an incredible amount of hurt and anger. I know this, but I am having a hard time not acknwoledging it. What is happening in our marriage is not fair, nor is it right. W is making horrible choices for D and I. Perhaps they are what she needs, but it is damaging D and I in the process. That hurts, and it does make me angry. I can't make that go away no matter how hard I try.

Please trust me, I do not wish to be divorced. I would not even be here if that was the case. I want my family back as a whole. My daughter, just last night, tried to give me some advice by saying "Mommy loves sea shells. Maybe you can give her some and and you will get back together". That absolutely RIPS my heart out. I don't want that. However, I also don't want W taking my daughter into Canada and me not being able to get her back. There is nothing in the world I wold risk that for. I don't know any other way of handling this. Sure, I can get a legal separation, but I know as well as anyone that it is just a means to a divorce. I don't want to go through this twice. I don't think I can take it.

don't think that divorcing will end your pain any sooner.

It just reduces the chances of your growth and a reconciliation. I have two family members who divorced and reconciled a few years later. Maybe it's what it will take for YOU to make the changes you need

and for your wife to believe in them. But this concept that you are victim here is going to stunt your growth

and harm your R with your w. Even if all you want to do is co-parent with her

then stop talking about how Unfair SHE Is...you have amnesia, I swear.

But the thing is, we don't. I read your whole thread and you had a lot more insight at the start, or at least you admitted your role and how your behavioral choices killed a lot of love in her.

Her love is hidden under her pain and anger and wounded pride and repeatedly being put down and worn down by your belittling ways. Most of what I just said came right out of your first thread.

This is tragic. Yes it is.

But the more you continue to harp about how wrong she is, and how right and victimized you are, the worse your daughter's life will be

and the less likely you are, to really change.

I mean, Why should YOU change, if this is all her fault anyhow?

Also, all the future predictions about how she won't change "even if" you do

are just excuses for you to stop working on you.

It's fortune telling that only helps you justify a divorce and giving up.

Do what you will and we all want you to be happy.

I just don't believe your present choices are being made with reflection and nor do I think you'll be happier or more at peace by filing.

I understand your concern about your wife and daughter leaving the country.

But the refusal to file for a sep because you can't "go thru this again" rings hollow.

Separation is NOT necessarily a step towards divorce but it would protect the ONE legit claim you have about needing to do something to protect your custody rights.

The idea that filing for divorce sooner, rather than later, assumes divorce is inevitable AND assumes somehow you'll have less pain because of filing now.

I don't buy either claim.

But if it's done then so be it.

Just don't stop the work you have to do. And it will stop if you keep blaming her.

Lose the anger. I hope you'll see someone or do a workshop or something to learn how to cope with your anger, better.

You seem to need to REACT when you feel bad, and that's just you surrendering to the urge.

It's not new behavior of yours, it's the same.

I don't either. What I do beleive; is it will allow me to move forward when I am able to without digging up old feelings and heartache during a divorce. I really think that part is inevitable, whether it is today, next year, 5 years from now, whenever. Why position myself for future heartache and emotion when I am possibly in an otherwise "great place" with my life?

I whole heartedly agree that it will drastically reduce the chances of reconciling. I disagree that it will reduce my chances of personal growth. If I am committed to bettering myself, I don't fully agree that I will have to be in THIS relationship to do so. I do see the point you're making, but I will use a phrase you mentioned in your reply...."fortune telling".

I am not a victim, even though I do feel some of the feelings of being a victim. I am sure my wife feels victimized at some level as well. However, I have not started to deny my role in the demise of our marriage. I KNOW I could have been a better husband and a better man. I should have been then. I wish to be now. I also realize that my wifes feelings towards me deteriorated while WE kept score, while WE were combative with each other, while WE were unaffectionate towards each other, etc.

I have never once said that, 25. That is not fair to put that on me. I realize your point, but you are putting words, feelings and actions on me that aren't really there.

Is it? I see how it could be, but I honestly don't think that is what I am feeling.


I know I won't be happier. I fully realize that. However, I am not happy now, and wife is hell bent to go in that direction. Will prolonging it honestly make it better? I mean if it will, by all means I am IN. However, I don't "see" how getting it over with at this point (given Wifes actions and intentions since day one) will make it any worse. Am I being niave?

THAT is my single biggest concern. Is it likely, I do not know. Is it possible, absolutely. Am I willing to risk losing my daughter, living a pipe dream that wife and I will reconcile, not a chance!

I don't think filing sooner will lessen my pain. That really isn't my intention. My only real considerations are, protecting my daugter from being taken out of the country and putting off another round of emotions and heartache at a later date. I know I could stop the issue of my wife fleeing to Canada by filing for a sep., but will that keep me from being hurt a year from now or whenver we actuall DO file for divorce? I doubt it. It is going to be horrible, regardless of the "date".

I have no other means to know if it is done, other than wifes solid conviction that it is so. That is not me mind reading or fortune telling. That is her saying, "I am done, and I am moving on with my life". She has not waivered once in 6 months and it continues to progress forward. She is now actively dating. What reason in the world would I have not to think this marriage was done?

I am aware of this, actually from everyone (including you) pointing it out. I see it clearly now. I know I have to work on it. It does control me to an extent.

I don't know what the best course of action is for my own well-being. unfortunately, I have given up hope that Wife is coming back to the marriage. I don't know exactly what I should be doing, but I do know that I am ready for something to happen. Something has to change.

W: Have you given more thought to the divorce agreement? I think it is best if we come to an agreement as soon as possible so I can make arrangements to leave the property. I just want us both to move on and learn from all the mistakes. I have had numerous people talk to me and tell me how unfair it is that I am living under your nose. It isn't a fair situation to either of us. If you could please take a look at the agreement and send me back your thoughts then we can get the papers signed. I am sorry (Husband). I know you and no one else agrees or understands where I am coming from but I am doing what I need to do.

ME:you have to do what is best for you, (wife). i understand that. but, i also know that we should have really tried with our marriage. i truly love you with all of my heart, and i was willing to do anything to make you happy, the changes i needed to do, to keep or family together. someday you will realize this. i know you loved me too. that isn't going to he easy to find again....its unfortunate that it has to be lost forever. i will work on the divorce papers for you as soon as i can. tell (daughter) i love her, please.

w:I will
I hope that one day we can be friends. I am sorry.

ME: we were...well actually we still are husband and wife....you were my very best friend (wife)....i hope we can be civil, but i will not be able to be your friend when you are in the
arms of another man. i am so sorry i can't give that to you. i have always tried to give you everything i can, but that is something i just won't be able to do.

ME: I hope you can actually find what you are looking for. I want you to be happy because I love you. I love (daughter). I don't want any of this. I just wanted us all to be happy....I am sorry you can't see it.

W:Do you know people have been saying I am walking all over you? I want to be civil and friends. I just cant take hearing how horrible I am anymore. I dont feel like I have done anything out of line or wrong. I am sorry that we grew apart and I fell out of love.

ME: I don't know who is saying you are horrible, but this has nothing to do with them.

W: Its the impression people are getting and I assume its coming from what you are saying to others. I know your hurting but you and I both screwed up and ruined our marriage

M: love comes and goes....its not constant. long term love takes work and commitment. We never gave our marriage that. IF WE DID, things would turn around dramatically. That is not me being philosophical, that's a fact. During the course of most marriage, one person or both, at one time or another fall out of love....it comes back around.

ME: our marriage is in a really bad place....but (wife) its only done if we allow it to be done. It just needs some work. I am willing to do that work.... will do ALLLL of the work until you are ready to do yours. We can work through this. It happens to the best of them

W: I get your trying to change and I am hearing that you have. I just haven't seen it. I am sorry. I am sure at some point I will have regrets but I am not going to change my mind. I have been set on that since the day I told you we were 100% done.

ME: i know you have been thinking about this....and i know you feel it would be easier to just find a new life.....but it wont be as rewarding....it wont be as good. I know this. You know it too deep down inside. You are just scared that it wont work.

W: rewarding? I am sorry other then having (daugther) and my (business) life, which would never be the same anyways. I dont feel that what we had was rewarding.

ME:well....i cant change your mind. All I can do is hope that you will have a change of heart. I am guessing you feel that life will be better without me. Please, for (daughter) and I, spend some time thinking about how life could be better with me.

ME:what we had is gone....GONE GONE.....we both dont want that. What I am talking about is what we could have...and your (business) life could be exactly the way it was in a matter of no time. Everyone would take us back as a couple in a heartbeat. That is what everyone wants in the first place!

W:The image your building in your mind of how things could be isnt reality (husband). I have spent 6 months thinking.

ME:the reality is there (wife)...you just wont accept it....i wish you would. I dearly wish you would

W:Trust me I know. Us as a couple is the only way people will accept me. That has been made very clear

ME:that is just another unfortunate thing about divorce....there are some people that will not accept me any longer either....its horrible....sooooo much of it is going to be horrible. We havent even scratched the surface yet

W:I guess we both wish we could have changed each other. I wanted you to treat me like you loved and cared for me while we were together and you want me to try now that we are apart. Maybe we just we not meant to be.

W:I know you dont accept my choice but for once in our marriage please respect my wishes to move on. I am sorry (husband) but that is what I want. I havent waivered on that at all.

ME: i feel you have commited yourself to a path. I honestly feel that even if you wanted to, your ego wouldnt allow you to come back. That makes me sad. It makes me sad that I miss taylor like crazy when she is with you. it makes me sad that you miss her as well. I miss you like I cannot even express. This whole thing has been such a wake up call for me. I just feelt that if we could get passed our egos and you would allow me to show you.....I wouldnt let you be unhappy for another day. I realize Now (maybe too late) that the most important thing in my life is YOUR life and (daughter). I get it. I really get it, (wife)

ME:I understand.....and I will support your wish to move on. I love you, and I will do whatever I can to show you....even if that is letting go.

W:It makes me sad that you finally see my worth now. I really want you to find happiness (husband). I hope that you will show the next person in your life how much they mean to you.

ME:I will. I have learned my lifes hardest lesson and I won't make the same mistakes twice

W:You are a great guy. You and I just lost our way and built up too many walls.

W:Unfortunately these 6 months have made those walls even thicker. I have so much anger and resentment.

ME:I know you do....you have expressed that to me....alot of it is because we are doing the damage and trying to build bigger stronger walls instead of tearing down the ones we needed to

ME:One thing I believe...your anger will go away. Mine did...eventually you wont remember why were resntful towards each other. That stuff will be ancient history...sort of like how you and (old friend) are now....time heals that stuff

W:That is because we are both fighting for different things. We are on opposit teams

ME:we shouldnt be tho....i mean why do you want to be on another team? Marriage is our team

W:Trust me (old friend) and I will never be the same. I like spending time with her but I wont put myself in the position of trusting her or anyone else that hasnt proven to be true to me. I am sick of liars

ME:i feel you're angry...i feel you're resentful....but honestly....other than that, why dont you think we should work on our marriage?....those things are behind us....we could move forward....you even say you want to move forward....why wouldnt we wish to move forward together?

W:I dont want to be married

ME:so you are going to be single forever?

W:Give me a minute to get (daughter) set up then I will explain further

ME:okay

W:I dont want to be married and feel the sadness, loneliness and feelings of never being good enough or doing right ever again. I know you say that you dont want that either and that if we got back together things would be different but I dont believe or have faith that that is the truth. I am sorry I just dont and I am not willing to just see.

W:If that means being single or not married for the rest of my life I am okay with that.

ME:i understand that totally...and you have every right to feel that way. I mean my actions haven't shown you in the past to feel otherwise

ME:i dont know what else i can do tho.....i mean i want to SHOW you....but you wont let me. All I can do is tell you, but you cant beleive me.....seems pretty scary to throw it all away because we are locked out of trying, doesn't it?

W:I have already thrown it all away. I am okay with my choice.

ME:I see...and i understand

W:I am past wanting you to show or prove that you love me.

ME: not even for (daughter) or our family and friends?

W:No

ME:or actually let me ask you this....are you lonely now?

ME: honestly....you wanted to be happy...thats what you said when you left. Are you happy right now?

W:Less then I was when I was home and married. I am sad that I lost friends and I miss (daughter)

W:I am happy most of the time until people tell me their opinions then I get sad

ME: (wife)....you are alone now....but you feel less alone?

W:I am working on being a better me.

ME:i am happy most of the time now too....until i think about you or taylor or somebody brings it up

W:I have friends that I surround myself with that dont judge me

ME:how are you working on bettering yourself?

W:Working out, eating healthy, building my Insurance and MK business doing things to make myself feel good about me

ME:all of those things are great. I feel that is exactly what you needed to do with your life. You needed to build YOURSELF up. Your happiness is only going to come from yourself

ME:do you ever think that the time you spent doing daycare really brought you down?.....and this is why I ask....

ME: not that we didnt have issues....god knows we did.....but it sometimes feels to me that you got no pleasure and no reward out of watching the kids. It was a thankless job.......

W:Well lying isnt being a good real friend and talking behind my back isnt either. I am sick of people getting involved in something that isnt their business

ME:and then when it came to an end, you really wanted that job with alaska, but that didnt pan out.....i feel you were at an alltime low. Then right after that, you had it with me and now we are done....less than a year later

W:I loved the kids but having people not give me credit for what I did eventually took its toll. I agree with that

ME:lying isnt good...i agree....and people shouldnt get invloved in things that arent any of their business...but they do.

W:We were done a long time ago (husband).

ME:I see....well I appreciate you explaining it to me more. It helps

W:You keep looking for excuses to why and I feel I have given you plenty

ME:I agree...you have given me lots and lots of valid reasons why you feel the way you do.

W:But you dont ever really listen. You continue to search for answers. What do you want me to say

ME:im not searching for answers....just some insight

ME:i dont want you to say anything. I am not looking for a magic bullet

ME:i was just talking with you and sharing feelings....thats all

ME:i'll let you get going so you can spend time with (daughter)......and i will work on the divorce papers if that is the direction you feel we should go

W:You also need to remember you gave me the out 3 times before I decided to leave. It wasnt all me. You weren't happy either. If you think you were you are lying to yourself

ME:i wasnt happy....well not in the last while.

ME:im not happy now either

ME: this is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...that [censored]

W:You spent all your time on the computer. You barely spoke to me you didnt want to spend time unless others were around and I forced you to.

ME:i wish i would have realized my own issues in the marriage sooner...maybe we could have saved it

W:Now your out with friends your doing stuff with (daughter) our getting projects done

ME: absolutely right....i did do all of those things....out of ignornace and stubborness

ME:i know....like i said this has been a wakeup call for me....i know i wasnt being the man i should be....i dont want to be that guy in the closet anymore. i wont be

W:We both seem to be better on our own

ME:i disagree with that... i would say "we both seem better"......being on our own has nothing to do with it

ME: the work you have done on yourself shouldnt change, regardless if you are with me or not...or someone else. That is if you really make your changes stick

W:When I would go away with the girls you were the same way. You would step up and do things.

ME:okay (wife)....im going to let you go. I am meeting some friends for a beer. I will follow through with your request as soon as I am able. Its difficult for me

W:I know what I am doing now is for me and (daughter). It will stick because I like me regardless of people saying I am unraveling at the seems. Those people should spend more time actually with me instead of assuming

ME:they should

W:Okay thank you.Enjoy your friends and your night

ME:i would like to spend more time with you, but it seems my time is up

W:Maybe in the future we can work on a friendship.

ME:i would really like that....but like i said...I can't be friends with you if you are in the arms of another man. It is just who I am. I am sorry

ME:if we werent husand and wife for many years...if we didnt have a child together. we could be great friends. I want to be best friends with you now. You don't want that and I can't offer it any other way.....it just [censored]

ME:enjoy your time with (daughter)....have a good night, (wife)

Well that went poorly. Every time your W offered some info to you, you just argued about how wrong she was. You didn't validate her at all, and in fact most of what you said was pretty disrespectful towards her feelings. Yet you kept talking like you want to reconcile, I just don't understand where you are. Do you want to reconcile or not? I think maybe you don't know yourself.

This was a very telling comment:

"W: I get your trying to change and I am hearing that you have. I just haven't seen it."

If she's seen no changes in you, then how do you expect to attract her back? DB'ing without 180's is just wishful thinking. Instead, you kept telling her that IF she came back, THEN you'd change. If you want her back you have to show her your changes FIRST. 25’s mantra: consistent actions + time = change your S can believe in. You haven't given her anything to believe in.

And this:

"W:That is because we are both fighting for different things. We are on opposit teams"

Your W perceives this as a fight with the two of you on opposite teams. This is counter to DB'ing. DB'ing is all about stopping the fighting and instead letting her know you are on her side and that you fully support her in her decisions regardless of whether you agree or disagree with them. You can't fight her and "win" her back by defeating her. It just doesn't work that way.

SP, you started out with some pretty good DB'ing. But you've really backslid in a big way. If you want D then so be it, but if you want to reconcile you've got to really step back and take a hard look at what you're doing and what we're telling you and get back to DB'ing basics.

Well, I got a couple things from the conversation. First, it reminded me how NOT detached I truly am. I have been completely sideways since we texted back and forth last night. The relationship conversation definitely effected me emotionally, feelings that have not really come up lately. I thought I was further along.

Recently, we have had little to no personal contact. Every interaction has been regarding daughter, and most of those are simple one sentence texts. We have been pretty disconnected from each other, even though we are living very close to one another.

My problem is this, I do not know how to show her my changes. That is not to say that I am wishing to "SHOW" her, it is simply that we do not interact in anyway shape or form. Of course she isn't seeing any changes. She is wrapped up in the "opposite teams" idea so much, that she isn't even open to simple conversations. She is completely disconnected, so how do I even start to engage her enough to show her I have changed? This has been a problem for me since day one. What can I possibly do? She sees me being a better dad. She hears that I am being a better friend and a better man in general. But, she never actually looks or interacts WITH me.

I know that my conversation wasn't very DB. I was hurt when she initiated the conversation. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful of her, but it sounds like that is the way I came across. I just don't know how to handle her anymore. Regardless of how I engage her, she just seems to grow angrier or use our interaction to remind me how "DONE" she is. The only time she seems to be calm, is when I don't speak or interact with her at all. That is what I have been trying to do lately.

I do wish to reconcile. I would take my wife back in a second. However, she doesn't want to come back. She wants to hurry up and divorce. Like I have been saying for some time, she hasn't waivered a bit in her conviction to move on with her life. She even stated almost those exact words in our converstion.I know I am not supposed to believe anyting she says and only half of what she does. However, my wife is not one to pull punches or throw out idle threats. Usually what she says is exactly what she means.

I know I would have to show her that coming back to the relationship would be the best for her. I guess I need to "win her back". Unfortunately, I honestly can't figure out how to do that. I don't think she would ever even want me to do that. So, how do I proceed?

Wow, you sure blew that conversation. Your words and hers, are in Red...mine are in regular black print.

You didn't lose your temper, so I guess that's something that could have gone worse.

But you argued with her PERCEPTIONS of how she was treated by you. Instead of showing change, which would mean you acknowledge and own your role, and NOT mention hers right after

you told her she wasn't correct...or you justified it...so you still negated her views and her worth.

She said:


W:I guess we both wish we could have changed each other. I wanted you to treat me like you loved and cared for me while we were together and you want me to try now that we are apart. Maybe we just we not meant to be.

W:I know you dont accept my choice but for once in our marriage please respect my wishes to move on. I am sorry (husband) but that is what I want. I havent waivered on that at all.


Instead of owning and apologizing for NOT making her feel loved or cared for, b/c this^^^ is where you had your chance!!! But nope, instead you said:


ME: i feel you have commited yourself to a path. I honestly feel that even if you wanted to, your ego wouldnt allow you to come back. That makes me sad. It makes me sad that I miss taylor like crazy when she is with you. it makes me sad that you miss her as well. I miss you like I cannot even express. This whole thing has been such a wake up call for me. I just feelt that if we could get passed our egos and you would allow me to show you.....I wouldnt let you be unhappy for another day. I realize Now (maybe too late) that the most important thing in my life is YOUR life and (daughter). I get it. I really get it, (wife)



But no, you don't get it! You just want her back. You don't think you treated her badly. OR badly enough.

You keep forgetting the belittling ways you had with her and how you "liked to argue" which she did NOT like. It wore her down. For years...

the way I see it and the way I wish women would NOT be, is that we women, WAWs, tend not to leave until our tanks are truly EMPTY.

Then we don't see the need or desire to work on things b/c we already stayed, until we could no longer. We only leave, usually, when we have nothing positive left to say or feel or even imagine...

But that's what happened. I suspect she warned you many times that she was going to leave. But you didn't hear it. Or you negated it.

I KNOW she said she was not happy with the way you were treating her

but I think you told her you were treating her fine. IOW you made it clear that she was wrong to feel sad or hurt...you invalidated her while married and you still are. You don't seem to grasp that she DID feel hurt. She's not lying.

And it's not insane of her. Why do you keep going in circles about this?

I don't care how popular you are with customers. Or how wrong THEY think she is. They were not in the home with you two.

You didn't treat HER right, you didn't treat HER the way you should have, and you know it. But you EXPECT and you feel entitled to another chance.

But even when you get the chance to show change or realizations, like in this conversation, you could have done so much better

you sound like a slightly calmer version of your old self. She's still mostly wrong. AND You're still mostly right. That's progress??? That's stagnation. And ego on your end...

Here is my favorite, but most shocking example of how you STILL treat her...

YOU actually asked her this question:


ME:how are you working on bettering yourself?


Wow, wow....you don't get it SP...you just don't.

IMO, For you to ask her something like that, is nothing less than an outrage.

If you are interested in what is making her happy, ask her THAT...but

your question and your wording are very revealing.

wake up man...wake the hell up.

PS

you also told her she left a "rewarding" marriage and that another marriage would not be as rewarding.

She HAD to say "rewarding"??

And you didn't pick up on it! You didn't grasp her shock at your wording or the irony. Your perception of the marriage is NOT HERS... That does not make her wrong.

No one leaves a "Rewarding" marriage.