Right, but she has said (recently) that she "forgives us". She has said before that she has forgiven me. Do I dare challenge that? Or do I ask what that means to her?
I have often thought that if she really, really had forgiven us or me that trtying to move forward wouldn't be such a rough go. Additionally, I don't think that there is any validity to saying that you have forgiven someone in one breath and then saying you never want anything to do with them in the next. Is that really forgiveness? IT CAN BE...I forgave my father for his drunken rages. I really truly did let go of all the pain of those memories and had great love for my dad when he died. But I'd never live with that behavior again. Do not confuse forgiveness with accepting the treatment again. Nor is it condoning an act.
You can say "Joe was wrong to do X to me" and then forgive Joe for doing it, even without telling Joe.
The grudge or pain no longer affects you. You're free of it. It does not come to you in your nightmares...But it has little to do with being with them, again.
You CAN have both forgiveness and reconciliation (obvoiusly my h and I did) but it's not mandatory. So no, I don't see the inconsistency.
I see your wife as waiting for something to "happen" to her feelings as if no choice is involved. Not just to forgive, but to love fully again. AND I don't believe she really has forgiven you although she may THINK she has...
Love is a choice we have to make even when it's not easy. That's why we had to take vows to marry; if it were easy to "fall in love" all the time there'd be no need for this site or making vows.
Seriously - I don't know. My mother has flat out SAID that about her and xw hasn't said it - but sorta lives it.
To that point, in terms of what I saw with forgiveness as a child in my family - really not a ton. So, how easy was it for you? Do you think you are done? "All there" now?
My mother is for sure the type of person to hold a grudge or not let anyone "push her around". Kind of the eye for an eye type....you hurt me and I will try to hurt you back. Perhaps that is seen in my previous posts about her (mom).
For many of us, forgiveness is a learned skill. For many of us, it requires tools we were not born with or exposed to.
Hence the need for those tools.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Every now and again I need to remind myself that there is not such thing as linear progress in this process. The net effect of everything is a LOT of improvement....I mean a LOT relative to bomb date....but still a ways to go.
XW and I met up for dinner tonight to exchange the boy -- her idea. She also asked to do the camping trip she pulled the plug on this weekend. She is also being very supportive with a small (stressful but not life-threatening) personal issue I am dealing with recently.
She had a tough few days, I suppose. The other night I called her via FaceTime on my iPhone so she could talk to/see our little guy. She talked for about 5-10 minutes and then started to tear up and said she had to go....that sometimes seeing him makes it harder. She later texted that she has a hard time being without him still and seeing him via phone is sometime tough.
The next day she texted me asking about him. Said she had a rough day....she commented that she "feels like a drifter". I believe that is in reference to how she is living these days....not that it is BAD, but it is a notable step back from where she was. She has often told me that she is at a place that feels like (if not worse than) being right out of college.
I was telling a close friend about this, and she said that "she is exactly where she needs to be - there are still things she needs to experience in this". That actually made a lot of sense to me....it certainly would not have 18 months ago.
Anyhooo...just checking in. Things are still moving along - slowly, and in a non-linear fashion, but moving nonetheless.
Crimson, I have been reading through your story this weekend. You counseled me, on my thread, to have patience, and I can really see how you are living that advice. I am impressed with your consistency and presence for your XW as she sorts through her issues.
LIS's advice to view your XW's behavior from the perspective of a trauma she has suffered seemed spot on. This is likely something that has triggered some very deep fears in her. With my XW I managed to trigger her fear of abandonment by threatening that I was through with the relationship. You may not have done anything so deliberate, but the advice to validate and see it from her perspective is stuff I try to take to heart.
Have you, or others on the thread, read "Hold me Tight"? I found it a very accurate description about how couples can fail to be there for one another in a relationship. What I liked about the book was that it argued that as these bonds were strengthened it became possible to revisit traumas in a relationship and provide reassurances for your partner. It's very similar to a lot of the advice I'm seeing here. So, maybe now isn't the time to heal the wound from the D, but you can have hope it is something you'll be able to address as things progress.
Wishing you strength for your patient journey.
H: 38 xW: 38 M: 16 T: 18 S: 9 BD: 2/2012 W moved out 4/2012 D: 11/2012
Hey AZ - nah, I have never read that book - though I have heard it referred to here quite a few times. I think during the heat of my tailspin I went into reading overload. Granted, some of it was necessary - but I think that when I started to get myself straightened out a bit more I stopped reading and just tried to start putting some things into practice. For me, at least, I think it is possible to read myself into a wormhole. That is not to say that there isn't any value in the book - I am sure there is. I just had to check out of reading relationship stuff for awhile.
I guess I owe everyone an update, though there has been no major developments. Still holding steady with nonlinear progress (as counter-intuitive as that sounds).
For the last few weeks XW and I have been getting along quite well - though she has had a few emotional fluctuations here and there. Most recently I went to pick S up from her condo a few days ago and she asked me a few friendly questions. I sat on a chair in her living room and answered them. She then prompted me to go.....she apologized and said that she knows I like to hang out and talk a bit but stretching out the exchange after she's had him for a few days is really emotionally difficult for her. I had no idea, but was glad she was honest about it. Not long ago I would have TOTALLY thought that she was angry with me, or simply did not want to be around me....I would have taken it very personally. Exercising a bit of emotional impulse control (though difficult) really helps curtail the mind reading. Which, in this case, would have be completely wrong.
After I got home with S I texted her and said that I was sorry that she was hurting and that I was not aware that my staying to talk made the exchange harder for her. I committed to being a bit more "in-tune" with the situation next time around.
The days prior to me picking him up I had e-mailed her suggesting that maybe we all skip town over the weekend and do something together (NOTE TO NEWCOMERS: there are certain stages in the process where you should not this ^^^^ - and I did my time there. Fortunately, things have improved to a point in my sitch where it is OK to do so....take time). She seemed interested but didn't offer too many suggestions.
Long story short, we ended up not doing anything together....she didn't even make it to church on Sunday where we typically meet up. Additionally, she was uncharacteristically silent over the weekend (didn't text asking about S, etc.).
By Sunday it was pretty clear something was eating at her. She texted and asked to talk to S. Bottom line - she missed him terribly and was very, very sad. She said that she didn't get back to me on doing things this weekend because she doesn't like him to see her when she is sad - and it hurts her to see him for a few hours and then have to leave him again...she was really struggling.
All I said was that I was sorry that she was hurting and if I could help let me know.
And then this text exchange happened -
Her: Just seems like we are in same spot a year later.... No progress, no gain. Just stuck. Or maybe just "I" and in the same spot not we.
Me: I for sure see how you see things that way. I feel somewhat differently - but understand your feelings.
Her: How do you see it ?
Me: One year ago we didn't really have a lot of open communication about feelings and were still in the middle of the D process. We couldn't talk much, and when we did a lot of anger and hard feelings came out. (The night of the comedy show, for example). And I think I was still fresh off of trying to change, open my mind, re prioritize , and calm down. Not to mention eat without barfing. You had no reason or proof to trust me. I think we (or maybe "I", I don't know) have gotten beyond that point. I read somewhere that couples in and through the D process sometimes suffer a form of PTSD. I guess it sorta like the body and mind protecting itself from incredibly trying times. I think we ("I") am still recovering from that stage but much further along than I was a year ago. But I can only speak for me.
And that as basically it. Not sure if it was the right thing to say - but it came out and she didn't dispute or challenge.
SOOOOO, tonight I had to hand S over - we did it over dinner. Ironically enough at The Rock Bottom Brewery. S was a little cranky and it was clearly frustrating XW. I just walked him out of the restaurant for a little bit.
When I got back, she seemed down. She basically said that she feels as though there is too much change on a weekly basis. Time with me at my place, time at school, time with my parents, time with the baby sitter, time with her at her place. It seem like a lot for him to go through. I am starting to think that he knows when the exchanges are going to happen and he gets sad...and then cranky.
When I picked him up after being with her for 5 days he barely spoke to me the whole ride home. It was obvious he was sad. And today as I was strapping him into XW's car he just kind of sobbed and said "I want to go to daddy's house". That always breaks my heart.
I guess what I am saying is that part of me believes that XW is starting to see a possible emotional toll all of this is taking on our S....and on her. Not sure what it means or what she will or will not do about it - and it is for HER to figure out, not me. It is clearly part of what she has to work through.
At any rate, she is on break next weeks and proposed we all go somewhere or do something....her idea, not mine. We'll see what happens.
Crimson, your story is inspiring to me. Your commitment to working on yourself and your family is also inspiring.
Reading your previous post about your S makes me a little sad. I can't imagine how terribly difficult it is handing your S back and forth. This is what frightens me to no end with my sitch. Not seeing my girls everyday would be awful.
Anyway, I just wanted to stop by and thank you for posting. There is some great info on your threads. Press on Crimson.
M 37 W 36 T22 M14 D8 D4 8/2012 distanced BD 11/2012 (likely wants D. Feelings have changed.) W move out date: June 8th.
Handing our son back and forth is the worst....for both of us. I've become accustomed to it - but it never stops hurting. I still have tears when he is away.
XW had to go to the dealership to get her oil changed and other small repairs at 10 AM. She had S and said I could come by the dealership with them if I wanted to see him...of course I did. So I grabbed us both some coffee and picked them up so they didn't have to linger there for 2+ hours.
As we were leaving the dealership, the conversation took an interesting turn. XW said:
"I wasted a lot of time being angry at your parents. I was mad that they moved in with you because maybe it was killing our chances of reconciliation. Then I realized I really have no reason to be angry at them at all....they have nothing to do with it. You were at your lowest - maybe it was best that they were there."
I resisted the urge to do a cartwheel and simply agreed with her, but also said it it good that they are leaving now. She just reiterated that she is happy that they are here for our S. Granted, it is a long way from her being able to "deal" with them again, but holy crap that is a big statement from her.
We enjoyed the afternoon together and on a whim I bought her a pair of sunglasses she had wanted. Right around the time S got cranky we parted ways.
Later in the night we began texting and she was very, very frustrated that S is now taking two hours practically to get in bed and stay in bed. That kind of expanded into her expression of frustration regarding how it seems he has two different sets of rules between houses (I did not comment) and that that makes things hard because he does not experience much consistency.
She kind of segued into being angry at my parents again for living in my house for 6 months. I expected it, really. When I read between the lines, I suspected she was trying to say she wants out of her current living arrangement. She went on to say that she (true enough) hates her living environment, the impact it is having on S, the "temporary and in-flux" feeling that has been over her life for the last 18+ months. It was the most pure admission of regret that I have received from her.
Now, I am not an egotist...nor am I into mind-reading like I used to be, but her continued comments felt A LOT (I mean A LOT) like she was wanting me to say it was OK for her to come back. She just didn't want to have to ask herself.
I rolled the dice.
She asked for what solutions I had and I waited for a few minutes and then said.....maybe you should trying being here at the house more often. Maybe just 1-2 days a week to see how it goes. You don't have to get rid of your place at all....you can keep it to go back to if things just don't work well.
She agreed and said that maybe come April she will trying being here a few days a week. (April because my parents will have left by then)
Will this happen? I have learned that these winds change a lot and RAPIDLY, so I do not know. I have no expectations -- and it feels good. I just have hope.
What a long, strange trip it has been....and it ain't over.
I guess part of what I want to say is that everyone that is going through all of this garbage that wants their WAS to have a sudden revelation and come home or "snap out of it", it just doesn't work that way. I (and others) tried so hard in the beginning to control the outcomes and get her to see what I wanted her to see....feel what I wanted her to feel. Sandi, 25 and others made it clear that if/when she figures things out it will be on her terms, on her timeline and most importantly....on her own. Some of that MAY be happening in my situation right now...not sure.
We have been trying to do that for quite some time.....and I actually listen and implement instead of just nodding my head like I used to. I think that there are often circumstantial things that make it more difficult to accomplish than either of us would like....work schedules, other things - etc. Not that I am making excuses - I DO agree with you and that will be the starting place.
We have slowly been inching back to one another for the last several months with our predictable share of ups and downs....gradually spending more time together....opening lines of communication......it's been helpful.
SS - thanks, this whole deal has taught me a very interesting and intense lesson in patience. More than anything, that has transferred into how I deal with and relate to my S. I am grateful for that aspect of this.
