Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers 3 Months in, Still fighting. Crunch time!

Ok.
It looks like you have no worries now that your marital probs have been solved.
Just one little thing:
What stands in the way of a reconciliation between you and your W is not OM......
It is your W.

SM

I just finished catching up on your situation and all the details you have provided re. your wife's move towards you and her distancing from OM.

I understand how both you and Laurie could see tangible signs of change. Yes, your W is spending less time with OM, she is asking about you, she is spending time with you and even texting you while with OM. All those do seem like signs that she is moving towards you.

I think the main questions to me, if I were you would be:
- What kind of M do I want with my W?

Let's assume her affair with current OM ends, and I do believe it might, given that he provides her nothing more than sex. I also believe like others that she won't leave you.
So let's go with that.
- What will happen to your M when current OM is gone? And more importantly - WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT SHE WON'T STAY WITH YOU AND FIND OM #2?

After all, your behavior right now is teaching her that she can have BOTH. There is no need to choose between the two of you now. So if a more attractive OM2 comes along, WHAT REASSURANCES WILL YOU HAVE THAT SHE WON'T START IT WITH HIM AND CONTINUE WITH BOTH?
How will you feel then? Are you willing to go through all you are going right now when that happens?
Are you willing to start another competition campaign against OM2?
How will that make you feel?
And what if OM2 CAN provide more than just sex for her? What if he is a great family man, has a solid job and has a lot in common with your W? What if he is rich?

I think you are focusing on the small picture in all of this. The cake eating is bad because you are teaching your W that you will accept a behavior where she has TWO MEN AT ONCE. Sure, this affair may end, but without her feeling any consequences from you, she is learning that you are OK with it. That is what your behavior is teaching her.

I think Laurie and you may be right that this affair is on its last leg and you may be right that she is choosing you more than OM and may eventually pick you, but that will be just TEMPORARILY, because she has learned FROM YOU that it's ok for her to have an "open marriage" where she can have as many men as she wants while still having a family with you and D3.

Yes, SM, it seems you are accomplishing your short term goal of having her end her R with OM1 and choose you, but you are also establishing the rules for how your M is and will be in the future.
What makes you think that it will not happen again??

(I think I read that there is a potential OM2 lurking already as an EA? And from my experience and that of many others, let me tell you that an emotional attachment is much more difficult to break than a physical one. Regardless of if he lives in China or has 20 kids - nothing prevents them from an EA, so if I were you, I would not be so dismissive of that situation either.)

So back to my original question:
IS THIS THE TYPE OF MARRIAGE YOU WANT FOR YOU?

and to me, equally important:
IS THIS THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE YOU WANT TO TEACH YOUR D3?

When there is meta discussion, opinions fly as if they really apply to a given persons situation. On the board we always see one side. While the coach is hearing one person, they know how to ask the right questions and their toolbox for providing impetus to and assessment of change is just larger.


We think because we see 'so many stories' and hear folks talk about what works and what doesn't work, a coach's advice, especially as is compared to how we talk about a situation on the board, might seem strange.

At the end of the day, the coaches, as hard as it might be forums to understand because we read so much on this board and others, have much more experience, knowledge, expertise---and success with their advice.

[quote=SM34
There is not a chance in hell that W gets into another situation with this gutmy or any other Guy. I know how she is and that's not how she is.
[/quote]

This is not the woman you married. Don't mind read, or you will end up disappointed when the outcome you hope for does not come.

Hi SM,
Let me first say, I love love love Laurie. I wish I wasn't in such a financial bind and I could've gotten more sessions with her.

Also, in my experience I've learned that everyone's sitch is different and because of that it's difficult to offer advice. Someone once said, imagine you are Ohio and California is telling you how to run your state. Wouldn't be a good idea, right?

Anyway, all I can do is give you my experience and take what you like and leave the rest.

My H lied about his affair when I first saw the signs. When I discovered the affair, I flipped and REACTED! This was very normal for me since I always reacted to situations. I still do but with help and support, not as much.

I chose not to LRT. I tried it and it didn't work for me. It was too difficult for me and I noticed it was actually not a 180. Laurie recommended I continue doing what I was doing, 180s, GAL, etc. She never recommended LRT.

In my case, I saw changes but they were soooo gradual. This is where I've learned to be patient. She also had me notice the big picture. I also didn't see Hs relationship as heated 6mos after I discovered the affair. He was still with her but it wasn't the same. When I look at my sitch in increments of 6mos, I see drastic changes. However if I look at it in days and weeks, the changes were so gradual.

Laurie told me that in her experience as a DB coach, it was the gradual changes in sitchs that reconciled and lasted. In other words, when WAS quickly wanted to reconcile, the marriage was short lived.

I continued to allow H to "cake-eat". I carry resentment but I have learned that I can't dwell on "I shoulda, woulda, coulda done that." Instead I work on not building more resentment.

I hope this helps.
Also, I can identify a lot with your wife as far as never being able to lie. I'm the same. And I can identify with her avoiding touching you. H did the same with me. Now we hug, real hugs everyday :-)

I'm back and now I have time to really address the points everyone has pitched. This COULD be the longest post in the history of mankind =) I will TRY MY BEST to keep it straight to the point.

Starsky, you said


Starsky I believe that is not true and I ask of you to continue to visit my thread. As I said in a previous post to you, I read almost all of your posts regarding your sitch and believe you have a wealth of things to teach me. Some are relevant now when I need to learn to show my wife more affection and love as you did, some lessons will come later on when I it comes time to take a firm stance (The current situation will only continue as long as there is progress but i think there will come a time when I will need to toughen up on W so she has the incentive to end this madness).

Leo, you said:


Laurie advised that I postpone this one. She did ask me how bad it is, and I told her W doesn't argue with me about not being allowed to take money with her. But there is a gas expense. Laurie said lets give it 2 or 3 weeks until our next session and then re evaluate. As long as we are seeing positive movement towards you, lets not force her to recoil.

Leo said:


It is very bizarre. She has repeated it twice to me. When her mom (who has always been her closest friend) had a "talk" with her when this OM first appeared, she told W we should see some counseling because it is likely we are speaking different love languages. MIL read 5LL and "His needs her needs" many years ago and lives by them. W told her that counseling would have most certainly fixed our issue because I probably needed to "hear" her in the presence of a third party who could translate her complaints into man talk. W recognized that her way wasn't getting through to me, but she said she was "already this far" with OM. MIL reminded her it has only been one week and you can still work it out with H, if you wait too long, you may not because he could be gone. Wasn't enough to counter affair chemistry.

Adinva you have always been one of the people who gives me reality checks, in a loving way. I appreciate that! I know my sitch is far from over and i have no delusions of what still lies ahead. You said:

Several people have said that I must be OK with an open marriage. To me an open marriage is one where you and your spouse engage in love making with each other, but also with other people outside of your marriage. I don't think that is what I am in right now, because I get no l0ve =)

I would say we are pretty much separated, since that word really refers to physical separation. If i had pushed harder, I would be divorced, or at least much more separated because W would have likely left the house. But I understand your concern, and that is why i am ok with the situation I find myself in.

That is a long story that i have touched on in previous posts. Really briefly, my wife has not been in any other relationships. From time to time in our M, she would confide in my that she often has thoughts of "What if" she had tried more relationships. I think she is victim to the Hollywood image of a marriage, as WMD talks about in DR. I would then walk her through some brainstorming as if i was not her husband.

Like saying, ok, lets consider some of your girlfriends. So and so, she is married and her husband treats her like crap. Do you want a husband like that? So and so is also married, her husband spends all his free time with "the guys". Do you want that? So and so is married, her husband makes a lot of money, yet he forced his wife to go back to work after the 6 weeks of maternity leave and denied her of the experience of raising a child the way she wants to. Do you want that? She would then say yes you are right, I am lucky to have you.

But then this time i think the "What if" got to be too much. She was pursued by a guy at a bad time, and she got caught up in the moment. Now she has to try it out because of the "what if" factor she has had.

The way I see it is, what has happened has happened. There is nothing I can do to change history. I would love to be able to go back in time and focus more on my W, and this would not have happened. But now that it has happened, I need to let her go through with it. This is what she wants, so knock yourself out! Ideally, she would come to realize, ON HER OWN, that no one is as good to her as her husband. And I am extremely good to her. We had a disconnect in intimacy, I have some bad characteristics as do all of us humans, but I treat her like a queen and she knows it. Thats why it has been hard for her to let that go.

If she can have this experience, and have it clarify to her what she has, then I think we would not have to worry about "what if" in the future, and we can work out better our M. In other words, I need her to "get it out of her system" if we have any future of a happy relationship. You know the saying "If you love her, set her free..if she comes back then it was meant to be". We broke up briefly before we were engaged and I should have done that test back then and let her have her freedom for a while. I know she would have realized then how good she has it. But I pursued, her mom pressured her to wake up and not waste this relationship, and she "came to her senses". This time I want HER to come to this decision on her own.

Adinva said:

Laurie said to continue with what is working, and lets see if she will cut back on OM any more before we try something else. A goal would be for her to cut back on the nights there although that would mean ONE night a week there and that seems not likely at least not soon. But Laurie wants me to log any decreases in eagerness to contact OM.

Tallula, I want to also tell you that you CAN help me. I know I have said this before and the kind folks on here have told me i cannot pick and chose what I get help with, and if that is the case that is unfortunate. I need to work on attraction, as ultimately that is going to be HUGE in what happens from now on. I think I will write a post about attraction as I think it is going to be very relevant for me now.

HollyAnn said:


You are absolutely right! She is the only one who can end this A, and commit to the marriage. OM will continue to cake eat since he gets her without the burdens, and that is a great situation for a single guy. It would be very nice though if he was to screw up somehow, like be rude to her, or disrespect her. The ultimate would be if he cheated on her...oh how nice that would be.

Keep_going said:



My behavior right now is to act like we are separated, but have chosen to live together for the sake of D3. I do not pressure her nor do I bring up wanting her back or anything like that. I am calm, cool, collected. I always look good, clean shaved, well manicured. I show confidence and happiness that does not depend on her. And it is confusing her just like Michelle says it should in DR.

Currently OM is messaging her all the time and trying to keep her occupied so she does not spend any time with me. Of course he knows its a dangerous situation for him that she is living with me and is here 5 nights out of the week. So I think he will come across as not confident, and needy and maybe clingy. While I look confident and self assured. Just my opinion.

As far as what makes me think there would not be OM2 after that. If there is one thing I have learned in this mess, it is that nothing is certain. However, we got the chance to reconcile, I would not ever be complacent again and that is the solution, after all it is complacency that lands us all on this page trying to get help.

Veroprado said:


To me that sounds like it is because if it is fear of the unknown that drives them back to the M, then nothing has been resolved from THEIR issues. If they take the time to explore the relationship, and it crumbles in its own time, they realize that their M was worth much more than they thought. Just my opinion, i could be wrong.

in light of what dbmod said regarding the advice on the board, I have some comments to make.

There have been a few people that have pointed out that my W told me what is essentially "wrong" with me, and that now I am discounting this in my adventure.

Having spent 3 months thinking about all of this, I think I know what has happened, and why people believe there is a disconnect between what "issues" I have, and what Laurie and I are focusing on.

Firstly, WMD's methods are solution based, so in some ways it does not really matter what the details of what happened are. It matters more what you do FROM NOW ON.

Also, I think if you spend enough time on the board you can sometimes turn what was a reasonably good marriage into an aweful one once everyone hammers all the things you mention.

The WAS also re writes history and gives you this big dissertation about why they are leaving and MWD cautious that much of it is probably not true. It is their way of justifying what they are doing.

So, when you come to this board and give people the "list" and every mulls over it and picks you apart, you eventually begin to believe you were horrible in your marriage. You start to blame yourself for all that happened, because that is how you are told you will find your faults and be able to work on them.

The interesting thing is that as your sitch develops, and you appear to be in a holding pattern, the same people start to "prepare" you for the failure of your marriage. At that point, the things that caused your sitch begin to be no longer your fault.

I know you cannot control the other person, and I agree with this completely. However, I have said this before and I want to state it again. The spouse that left is often times more broken and more at fault than the LBS. I know this is a dangerous thought because you will not work on bettering yourself, but never the less I believe it is true sometimes.

You can be a good person, and have what is a pretty darn good marriage by today's divorce ridden marriage standards, and your spouse may still cheat on you and ruin your marriage. It seems to be an inherent weakness in some people.

I find it interesting that when I first arrived at the board, as a man who's wife is in an active affair, I was advised by GH31 of many things that now 3 months later have emerged as GOLDEN advice. He said:

1) Read the sitches of other MEN who succeeded in ending a WAW affair and reconciling. They all follow a certain pattern and can be very predictable. This is pretty much what the DB Coaches do. They listen to your story, and then the solution is based on a tried and true method, tweaked for your own dynamic with your spouse.

2) He told me that I needed to read as much of those men's threads as I possibly can. Absorb it, and implement. Other's said this is manipulative, and you cannot control the situation. I think you cannot control your spouse but you CAN control the situation through how you act.

3) He also taught me that I needed to learn to ACT and not REACT. I needed to develop the traits that women are attracted too, but others on the board said that was attraction mumbo jumbo. Now everyone is telling me what I am doing is killing attraction, and all of a sudden attraction is more important than it was. Men in this situation need to show their W that they are more attractive and the laws of attraction are well document. There exists some variation from woman to woman, but the foundation is the same: Show confidence through body language, strong eye contact, firm yet loving tone in your voice, etc. Much of it is alpha male traits but they should not be implemented in a jerk type way, but from a "place of love".

4) He told me this is a marathon not a sprint, and that you will be up against OM. You need to have gamesmanship, and use your head, listen to your inner voice and don't fight it. Feel the pain because that is what you need in order to fight till the end. Now Laurie is suggesting to me that when I engage W in topics that OM is not interested in, I am showing up OM. Also, if W engages me while she is with OM, then I should try to engage her to make her subconsiously feel that she should be with me right now not OM. All other advise on the board was about boundaries and how you will not messaged with her while she is with OM, and you do not even think or consider what type of person OM is because this is not a game. Seems to me now that this is a sure way to "lose" the fight to the challenger.

5) He told me you must be decisive in your moves, and everything you say or do should be thought out. Never act on impulse, and never react to any situation. He ALWAYS says DBing is two things: Doing what works and rejecting what doesn't. Now Laurie is having me continue to do what works, and avoid what we think will not work.

6) He said after some time you will not be able to take the holding pattern you are in, but that if you have done your homework and made the correct startegic moves, your wife would be noticing and drawn in. When you take the step to distance yourself, she will then suffer a rude awakening as she realizes that OM does not meet all of her needs. the affair crumbles pretty quickly when you dump your wife into his lap.

I have gotten some great advice from everyone on the board at some point or other. Many of the points that I mentioned were negatives in my dcharacter are things that I continue to work on. But when I say that I do not believe any of that was enough to cause my wife to leave, I am attacked and accused of not looking within myself. I have looked within myself! But my wife needed to be made love to much more often and with more passion and probably in a more kinky fashion, and had that happened she would not have done this. We all have flaws, and we can all recognize what the deal breaker was for our spouse. Some of the other flaws we try to address here on the board are for us, and for us only. They will not make or break or sitch at this point. Granted, they will be better for a future reconciliation, but they do not serve a purpose in the struggle to re attract a spouse that is looking else where.

Also, I think people are on this board so much and read so many sitches that they can get carried away and quite imaginative in the possible scenarios. And it is possible to be here reading and posting and spinning your wheels for a long time over things that are not helping you bring your spouse closer which is the ultimate goal here. These things may help you save yourself, but sometimes in the process you are destroy the chance to fix your marriage I think. I may be wrong, this is ALL my opinion and my thoughts at this time....these opinions and thoughts may change as my sitch developes...I don't know.

GH31 was able to reconcile with his wife. But 5 years later he is still reading and learning what attracts women and how he can keep his wife "locked in". One of the things he has said to me that has stuck with me is that "Complacency is an animal to which you do not want to succumb". And it is absolutely true. We all had good marriages once a upon a time. Could have been years ago, could have been months ago, could even be weeks ago. Complacency make you comfortable in your M and you slack, then the weaker or more dependent spouse loses focus and their minds begin to wonder.

How can you say the details do not matter? Of course they matter, they are what got you here in the first place!



Where is this coming from? How many here HAVE a reasonably good marriage? If you are here it's most likely your marriage wasn't so good.




Nobody is innocent in the breakdown of their M SM. It takes two to make a M bad. So are you trying to say to us that you did nothing wrong in your M and that we made you eventually believe you were horrible in it? So now blaming is yourself for the breakdown of the M is what you were told? Make no bones about it SM YOU most certainly had a hand in how your M has turned out you are not an INNOCENT VICTIM in this. That is a bad mindset. The guilt you feel is normal, we have all felt it and we have all blamed ourselves for it. I blamed myself for the entire breakdown of my marriage and felt very guilty. I struggled with forgiving myself until Mr. Bond came along and told forgiving yourself takes time. He was right and once I was able to do that I clearly saw that it wasn't all me who was responsible for how my M has turned out.



Where are you getting this from? Who ever said that the things that caused your sitch to begin with are no longer your fault? I've not read that from one single person on this board. My M is in a holding pattern so to speak but that doesn't mean things weren't my fault too. Please tell me where you are drawing this conclusion from I'd really like to know and don't you think that it is wise to be prepared for a possible D? Nobody is saying that you are definitely getting one but prepared can only help you overcome the pain.



Again SM where do you get this from? It's almost like you are absolving yourself from the breakdown of your M. You are making yourself sound like a victim here. It is very dangerous because you are not accepting your part.



Are you trying to say that this is your M and W? Let's face it SM most of here who have had a S that cheated have had a hand in that S having an A it doesn't make the cheating S right but we gave them a reason to seek out an A.



I think this is one piece of advice you still don't get. You still seem to think it's a sprint.



Why is it so hard for you to believe that the negatives in your character was enough to make her leave? Can you say for an absolute certainty that if you made love to your W the way she wanted that she would not have done this? If that's true then why is she still with OM and not with you? If it truly was just a sexual thing as yo tell us then that seems pretty simple to fix or are there missing pieces to the story?



So coming here is now not helping people? SM not one of us can bring our S closer to us. Your S has to want to come closer. I think that's a real slap in the face to everyone that is here. If your S doesn't want to get closer to you then no matter what you do no matter how much you change for the better it's their choice. It's wrong to say people are destroying their chances. I have yet to see one single thread where someone said DB destroyed my M. Please give us some specific examples.[/quote]

Leo, I am not saying that DB destroyed my M. I mean that some folks sometimes give advice on here that is form a very "bitter" place. Those are NOT the veterans. Let me say that again...NOT The veterans!

I have gotten awesome advice from you, Mr Bond, Starsky, 25yearsmlc, and many others. I mean there are people who literally jump into your thread, post one post, and then leave. They say they read your enitre sitch and they offer something like "Wow SM how can you put up with this? Where is your self respect?". Then if you act on that statement, you can BLOW THE WHOLE THING!!

If I had listened to any of those statements earleir I think it would be all over by now. But because I went with what I thought came natural to me, which is to try to "persuade" or "coax" wife back to our M, I think there is still hope. Don't get me wrong, it is far from over, and it may not be resolved..like you said I have no way of knowing the outcome. But the acting on impulse that can sometimes be advised here would have surelyh destroyed the chance.

The stuff I wrote on my last post is just my opinion at this point in my journey. I may be missing the bigger picture, and that may become clearer once I get further along. Maybe at that point I will realize all the advise I was given. But at this point, I am thankful I didn't listen to some of the folks.

Leo I think you know what I mean. I'm not bashing the veterans. You all have helped me analyze myself, and my marriage. I know where I went wrong, and if i can get a second chance I will not be complacent and take my wife for granted.

If you read dbmod's post, it kind of explains what I mean. One comment made by someone who has not been following the journey from the start can also change the path of the discussion sometimes into a direction that is a little imaginative. And because we are all hurting and looking for answers, I think you can end up spinning your wheels mulling over the stuff said.

Again I really am not bashing the veterans, and even noobs, as long as they have been following along with me and have almost gotten to know me and my W, as much as that is possible on the board. Its the ones like I said that pop in and change the direction of your effort and put negative thoughts in your head that can sabotage your effort.

The veterans will normally say, as you have said on your posts to me many times, I am not trying to tell you what to do...but think of this point.... The folks I am talking about don't have those disclaimers!! They feel they know exactly how you should react. Also not is that I said react NOT act. You cannot use impulse in the struggle we are all in.

Leo, I also realise big time that it is a marathon. It has been not even quite 3 months for me, and I have no doubt it will be at least another 3 months. All the material I have read, and my db coach, suggest that 6 months is really the magic number as far as when you MIGHT begin to actually have change.

For example, I got positive comments from Laurie last week in our session. However, W still went to OM's house, and this time has not messaged me as much. She did message me last night to ask me how I am doing, but after a couple messages back and forth our convo fizzled. I'm not discouraged because this is a marathon. We will all see periods of closeness and periods of distance between us and the WAS. That is normal I think, whatever normal is these days =)

So to sum up, coming here on this board is a HUGE help. I would have literally destroyed myself mentally had it not been for all of you. I just think that people should exercise caution when they get advice, and ALWAYS have a db coach walking you through.

Along time ago, before I knew any of what I know now, I posted on another noobs thread and gave advise that looking back now I know was RIDICULOUS. Mr Bond corrected me, and put in my place! The place for noobs! And I then posted on that same persons thread telling him to disregard all that I posted and that I wish I could delete it! I now relaize how dangerous that is becuase I feel it has happened to me numerous times!

I think the best advice and guidance on this board is in how to better yourself. How to purge bad habits from your character. How to grow and become a better person. As far as what to actually do about the sitch, I think it is mixed effectiveness and sometimes quite dangerous. That is just my OPINION. I'm not getting it from somewhere.

Leo, you said



When I have snooped on my wife and looked at her messages to her closest girlfriends, the friend is always saying "Wow, your H is wonderful! What happened?". The answer I have seen is "Yes he is a wonderful guy. He just doesn't seem to want me in a sexual way", or "We lost the passion in the bedroom". It hurts man, it really does. I love her so much and I couldn't show her that, with enough passion.

In the latest snooping where I saw the guy friend complaining about his marriage etc..There was a message from her childhood grilfriend who is a huge marriage advocate and has called me numerous times to see how she can help in my effort to reconcile. She had messaged my wife and asked her if she is happy now, since she has found someone who is an "animal" in bed.

hjer response was interesting. She said 'I'm not sure how I like it yet. Husband was so gentle in bed, and OM is kinda rough. I like the rough, but I also liked the gentle love making where we lose ourselves in it."

In hurt to read that message. Again I was reminded that she loved me, she really wanted everything to be perfect. She even enjoys the way Imake love to her, in a very loving way. I like to be gentle, to caress her body, and to take my time...more of an emotional event than a physical one. Now I am finding out that she likes that a lot, but it just wasnt enough frwquency. More importanlty than the frequency I think was the pursuing. She has always had kind of a self esteem issue, and she needs to be prusued and told how sexy she is etc.. like OM did. I wasn';t doing that. I thought she knew how I feel... its complacency at its finest.

So what is the "easy fix"? I have asked that question from the start. how do yuo show a wife who feels the marriage was sex starved, that you will MAKE SURE she gets more sex and more pursuing?