Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Walk-Away-Spouse ILYBINILWY

It's an interesting commentary, CV. You see yourself as the same as C's W. I'm not sure I do. So perhaps it's my interpretation of things. I see C's W as scared to death. I don't see her as indifferent. I read you as indifferent and less scared. The ONLY reason you mention for staying there at this point is because of your S. C's W does mention the S but as part of a larger family unit. She wants her family.

I find indifference a very dangerous place to get to in a relationship. Very hard to find your way out of. I'm not sure I ever developed indifference for my H as I care about him tremendously... I developed indifference for the M because he had been indifferent. Why care about something that I couldn't get him to care about. H is looking for a trophy. But a deep, meaningful, mutually beneficial relationship? No, he couldn't care less. And maybe it is because he's scared? But in that case, I have no respect for him because I find that weak. To make me believe he's indifferent because he's scared is equally cruel. He makes it too hard to be with him. Listen, I have lived a life of being able to walk away from anything and everything. I was almost proud of it. So, I empathize with his plight. But I also know how easy it is, how weak it is. It is far harder to come to a person and say, "hey you mean something to me" risking that you will get hurt. But at least? You risked it. You tried. Somewhere along the way... I grew up. And somewhere along the way... his fear, his pride OR his honest to God indifference alienated me. You can only tell a person so much that they don't mean that much to you before they start believing it.

So the question for you is... where do you land? Are you indifferent because you are scared or are you indifferent because he told you that you didn't mean much to him one too many times? If it is the latter, as I suspect it is, then I think you continuing to engage in a R where you are constantly reminded how low you rank is unhealthy. And maybe driving away (with S in the car) might be the right answer.

CV, you struggle. And I know you struggle or else you wouldn't continue to go over this again and again in your mind. And if your H's answer to you is hey, let me do what I want and your job is to just sit there and eat it, well... I know why you struggle. But this situation hurts you. And I'm not always sure you see that. You do deserve something more. At some level, you get that. I'm just not always sure you have completely internalized it.

"...that I have a responsibility as his wife..."

the expectations for women in a M are too great, IMO. there's too much of a double standard. i think a lot of men WANT another mother. at least, someone who will take care of them, not ask questions or demand anything of them, and continue to give unconditional love, no matter what they say or do (or don't do).

none of us who have been LBS's had perfect S's. we didn't get to the point where our S's didn't want to be with us because everything about them was wonderful and only we were deficient.

while we worked on ourselves, because of the BD accusations and the terror of being alone, the WAS, i suspect, didn't do so much. why should they...it was all our fault.
unless they do, i don't think R will work.

unfortunately, in my case, i think i will have to enlighten my H, little by little, as things come up. there will probably be resistance but my giving him my list of what i wanted in a mate, prior to him coming home, was a real heads-up about my boundaries.

i don't think we'll be married forever. i don't think i'll ever be able to fully trust him again. he could bail out on me again. he could put his kids before our M again. i'm almost certain he would cheat my son if i die first, and i'm 10 older than he.

so...i will live for today, hope for the best, plan for the worst (should i need to), and enjoy what i can.

CV, in your case, you would be so gone if you didn't have your S. so your dilemma is saving yourself or causing your S pain.

LIS, (I want to call you Lisa! lol!) I have read C's posts of his W stating that she just doesn't have those "feelings" for him. I can also recognize the possibility of fear (who wouldn't be in her shoes?) But then why the lack of feelings? Is it just that her fear is so great that it overrides everything else? Or is it her dreams of another baby and the unpleasantness of her current life that's causing her to think about a "family" again, and that love has nothing to do with it? Even a single person can imagine/want a family and kids, without even having met their future spouse yet.

Indifference is a bad thing. I saw a debate on another thread about whether hate is the opposite of love or whether it was indifference. There was no conclusion, but I could believe it. Love and hate both take energy and attention. They both involve strong passions. How many scenes in movies show two people at each others throats one second, then sharing an impassioned kiss the next? Indifference on the other hand makes the person/situation virtually invisible to you, and doesn't affect your day one way or the other. I'm definitely not indifferent to the situation (at the moment anyway.) But I don't believe I'm operating out of love, hate, or fear. I think it's just frustration.

I would like to be able to keep my family intact, for everyone's sake. I would like to not be almost 50 and alone for the rest of my life (yet I don't care to try it again either.) I would like to be able to solve this dysfunction. At this age and experience, we should both be two rational human beings. We should be able to come to terms. We supposedly both want the same thing, why does it seem so impossible? For example, why can't he just do what he says he's going to do, or not make the promise in the first place? I feel like he has absolutely no character because of it and that makes it hard to respect him. He reminds me constantly of a used-car salesman.

At this point, I'm not sure what I would be afraid of. I've lived on my own, I'm capable, I'm happy living alone, relatively content being alone. I'm not afraid of him because I feel like I know him. He's a creature of habit and has changed little in 20 years (he'd tell you 40.) For example, I'm not afraid that I'll get hurt because he lied to me again, because I'm quite certain he will and so I don't expose myself. When I discovered his porn activities, I was surprised for about 3 seconds and then I was over it. I didn't even mention it to him because I knew he would deny it. About 6 weeks later, something came up and I mentioned I knew about it. Of course, he immediately denied it, and we had to go through the whole exercise of how I knew before he would admit to anything. That was about 6 years ago and I haven't been surprised by his lies since. I wouldn't be surprised if he hooked up with someone - BTDT. I wouldn't be surprised by much. So what would be the fear?

I would definitely say I'm indifferent because he told me (by his actions, not his words) too many times that I didn't matter to him. And the words just don't carry any weight anymore. You know the story of the boy who cried wolf, right? What those people did. Is that growing indifferent? Or negative? Wherever they landed, that's where I live.

I think I realize that it hurts me. I don't think it's as much a "hurt my feelings" issue as it is a "hurt my self-esteem" issue. And that's why I try to focus on offsetting that. My friends are great. I recognize my accomplishments. I get some comfort in the fact that no one else in my life reacts to me the way he does, so it's relatively easy to dismiss.

Yup! That hits the nail on the head. To "save myself" and get out now would just be going from the frying pan into the fire, because my depression would go from focusing on my M to focusing on what I did to my S12. So I'm trying desperately to figure out how to make us "work" at the absolute bare basics (roommates?) so we can get through the next 6 years. I would be more than content with that. But H keeps acting like because we're still M'd, we should act a "certain way" and do "certain things," so he won't leave it alone. I agree that there are too many expectations placed on women. I hate that I've helped to support that stereotype.

And I'm sorry, I know I sometimes contradict my self. I think I answer honestly for the moment, but things change for me depending upon what's going on or how demanding H is. Sometimes I really am doing fine. Sometimes not. Thankfully, I think I'm climbing out of it again. I actually did a few productive things today. Unfortunately, that will make H think everything is fine with me and translate that into everything is fine with us, even though absolutely nothing has changed there. I think maybe I'll just try to avoid him.

Hey, my H will tell me anything I want to hear. He'll make all the promises in the world. Maybe it's my failure, but I found it hard to cuddle with words, you know?

It's beyond the fact that it hurts your self-esteem... this stuff has a way of creeping into your soul. I don't want to become so cynical that I don't believe in love anymore... that I don't believe in something better. I don't want to be that. Because in many ways, I've made strides in the opposite direction and I can't let him take that away from me (or better said, I can't give that back to him). I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's almost a satanic quality about the situation I find myself in.

I don't know, CV, but this is an unimaginable pain to me sitting here like this. I just can't imagine that you're immune to it.

As far as C's W is concerned, her actions betray her words. Yes, she has stated she had no feelings, however, she was also concerned about whether he found himself wanting to give up. She didn't seem to like that idea. Also, she found that she enjoys her time with him... asking for a followup "date," immediately following Saturday. This is neither an indifferent nor unfeeling person. Confused, she is. I don't get the impression you enjoy any time with your H.

As far as the debate you mentioned, I saw the same thread. And perhaps the difference is the WAY we experience those feelings but I'm on your side of the fence on this one. Love and hate are passionate emotions... indifference is a lack of emotion...

Yes, I get the "can't cuddle with words." It's not your failure.

I've thought a similar thing about my M having a satanic quality. But you say something like that and people think you're nuts. I've related to it especially because H is such an outspoken Christian, yet doesn't do well actually living it.

LIS, this was one of the most directional posts I've read of yours. You seem quite convinced that you shouldn't be there. Are you just struggling with your love for your H? Or that craziness of his changing his mind? You don't have kids so I'm not sure what your biggest hurdle is.

I can see the difference with C's W. And, yes, she enjoys time with her H and I don't with mine, but then her H has changed from top to bottom and mine hasn't changed at all.

Yeah, believe me I don't mention the "satanic" thing to anyone. But that's the best way I know how to explain it.

Why am I struggling... hmmmm...

I do love him, I'm afraid of making a mistake, I'm scared of being alone, I have to move, missing my animals that I wouldn't be able to take with me right now, I have to find a new job, I have to start all over again, financial devastation, my interests tend to bore people so I'm afraid I'll never find someone else, feelings of complete worthlessness, feelings of failure, where do I put all my stuff, having to sell 2 houses, having to find an apartment when I do get a job, afraid I'll be no happier or worse, complete change of lifestyle...

That's what I can come up with in 2 minutes. My mind spins like a top! Sorry you asked?

LOL! No, I'm not sorry I asked. It shows me that your angst is "everything else." That makes more sense to me. I guess I don't struggle as much with those things because my expectations of life are pretty simple, and there's little of my material life I couldn't easily replace. (I say this as I'm currently going through purging the house and realizing just how true that is.) Plus, most of those other things are within your control. Another human being is not. I could address each one of them for you, but I don't want to minimize your fear. I'd like to be able to help you confront them, though. Is there just "one thing" that you can address right now? Maybe one of the smaller ones? For example, is there a new interest you could pursue that you think you might like that would broaden your "exposure?" Like I thought about taking up golf. Or volunteering with Habitat for Humanity. Things like that give you an outlet and exposure to like-minded people. Much like this site does except the topic is often depressing.

And I think our minds but have been made by the same top manufacturer.

CV, you mention how H says he'd do anything to save the M, but then declines your specific requests. You draw a clear line between those two things, but I'm guessing that he, with his less logical mind, does not.

I'm curious whether you've made the connection explicit in any instance? Not as an ultimatum, but as part of clarifying the connection to him. As in, "Are you really committed to saving our M? You're willing to do anything? Would you be willing to _____? Even if it was necessary to save our M? Actually, it is necessary."

SD, I'm sure you're right, because he has absolutely nothing in mind when he says that. He's a salesman and it's his "pitch." He has never offered "this" is what he'd do, just "anything." It requires less thought and commitment that way. I've told him things directly, like that I can't make a happy M without trust, that he has to stop lying to me. He promises he'll never lie to me again, but then does so again and explains that somehow that's different. Like when he told me that a golf game admission was "taken care of," implying that the guys that invited him were paying for him, when in really it cost him $175 and the guys weren't paying for any of his. To him that's different because he didn't really "lie," since technically the cost was taken care of -- by him. Instead, he simply "lead me to believe something was true when it wasn't." Well they're the same to me.

Besides that example, I don't know what I could tell him. To me, M and relationship is a whole bunch of little things. Like caring and courtesy and thoughtfulness and empathy and understand and protectiveness and priority. He's a list man, he needs a list. How do I put that on a list? And if I put on the list to be empathetic when my mom is sick in the hospital, what can I expect when I don't get a job I applied for. If it wasn't "on the list," does that mean he's off the hook? We've covered all these sort of things in countless books and counseling, but he still doesn't seem to get it.

I thank you for your help and patience with me, CV. Been sitting here thinking a lot. Yes, the material things don't mean much... it's the experiences. Just babbling with a friend today and that really hit me. I sit here comfortable with money and completely miserable. I just worry about getting out, being completely miserable with no money - hahahahha.

Meeting people with the same interests - hmmmm I could do that... it's getting over the shyness.

H called and wants to talk. I already know where this is going. The plan was for me to leave here this weekend and he's flipping out again. He says he loves me. You know, CV, in some ways I wish he would just say, "listen, we need to end this. I'm never going to be what you want or love you the way you need," and just be done with it. It's hard when the message is, "I love you and I want and need you to stay. I'm going to change, I swear," and then nothing changes. Today's message was "I need you not to give up on me." It's not fair. It's just not fair.

I am in full on panic at this point. And I couldn't put my finger on it but my friend told me that finality is hitting me. And I guess that makes sense as much as anything else. I feel all alone yet I feel somewhat safe that the people who know me and love me are rushing in at this point. But I can't help but feeling that they too are starting to see the finality of all of it. I liken it to being on your deathbed. You know you're a goner when everyone starts surrounding your bed.

I'm tired, CV. I'm so tired. I'm tired of the drama. I lived such a happy and peaceful life. My H and I barely fought and it wasn't because we didn't disagree or were dispassionate (no one would say that about me - lol). It's just that I was very happy and craved peace. Just didn't find most things worth arguing about. There was never drama. My life has been nothing but drama for 2 1/2 years and I'm tired. I sleep a lot these days which I haven't really done before. And I'm frightened about leaving and having to find a job because my head is not in the game. But my family seems ready for that given their latest speeches to me. I need to have faith in myself, though. And if there is one thing I've lost in the middle of this mess, it's faith in myself. My therapist said it is probably the single biggest problem I have right now... I don't believe in myself anymore. I have got to get that back.

How are you today?

LIS