Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers 3 Months in, Still fighting. Crunch time!

ok here I am on the laptop. I need to make this as brief as possible because I really do look suspicious.

Firstly I would like to say it is very interesting that the advice I have gotten in the last few posts is mostly what I would call "tough love". It is what is naturally what people do, more of reacting to the situation instead of acting.

to answer the questions of "I can't believe you didn't put your foot down when you first found out about OM" my response is I am a very calm and steady person, much more a thinker, one who contemplates a solution instead of going off of impulse. That is likely what has saved the situation so far.

I took the evening of BD to think long and hard. I decided if I blew up and did what I felt I wanted to do, which is to throw her stuff out and kick her out, I would have very likely turned ugly that night. My gut told me to work from a "place of love" and I hadnt even read DR yet. It was just my gut instinct.

Anyway, on to the convo with Laurie. This is going to be a long post so please bear with me. i will try to be straight to the point, but it is an hour call and we managed to get a lot more chat this time because Laurie already new the story and read an email I sent her (copy of my original post of my sitch) so we jumped right into it.

Laurie says we have to look at the big picture, because if you look at single events or comments that W made, you will judge on individual things. She said that is most likely what is happening on the board. I say wife said so and so, and then comments pour in on how disrespectful etc.. that is, and what I should do about it.

Also, and I think I said this in a post a long time ago, she says everyone judges or compares your sitch with theirs, but they are not married to YOUR W, and they are not you, and their history is not the same. So advice on what they would do is not always what you should do.

She said for example, you may be getting advice to be very hard on your wife and give space, and GAL etc.. from someone who's spouse is a serial cheater. You may be told your W when finished with OM will move onto another OM, because that is what people see on the boards. Actually now I remember what I posted along time ago....I said there is a lot of dysfunction in a lot of people's sitches here, and I thought my situation was "clean" if every there was such a think with an active A. I was told that my W would see things differently if we asked her if she thought our M was dysfunctional. So I left it at that, because I know she would NOT think that.

Anyway, back to Laurie. So Laurie says we need to focus on your W's actions and not mind read. So, in our first call just 2.5 weeks ago, she had asked me to describe interactions with w and also W's behavior. I had been detaching big time and treating her like a roommate and doing my own thing. It didn't feel to me like it was the right way to handle my situation. My gut told me I was reinforcing the idea that I am not capable of being there emotionally for W, that I was too concerned with my business, that I was not attracted to her anymore etc..

Here is a short version of what the main observations I had were:

1) Wife does not allow me within 2 feet of her. If I need to squeeze through a tight place where she is standing, she moves well away from me so we don't touch.

2) Wife was constantly messaging on her phone with OM. We use the app called "WhatsApp" and it tells you when a person was "Last Seen" or when someone is actually "online". I programmed OM's number in my phone so I could "see" him on the app. Some smart monitoring I realized that when W was typing on her phone, I would open his contact and it would say "Online". Sometimes when I looked at her contact, it would say last seen 2 mins ago and his would say last seen 3 minutes ago. I started taking my phone with me into my room at night. Checking at 2 or 3am sometimes both of them would be online at the same time. However, when W contact said last seen 1 hour ago, his might say last seen 2 or 3 minutes ago or even "online". So logically, W is using WhatsApp to message me and OM, but OM is also messaging other friends with it. My wife and all her close friends have iPhones and so they use iMessage to communicate but OM and I have android phones so W uses WhatsApp to message us.

So I have a way of figuring out if I think they are chatting when i see wife typing on her phone. I also noticed when she left for OM, they would seem to still me messaging during her 1.5 hour drive to his house, but then once she arrived they would both go hours without any activity. One time it was 10.30 am and W's contact said last seen "4.30 pm yesterday". So once she was with him, unless I messaged her or she messaged me, her activity stopped completely. So I can safely assume that is she is online, or has been seen recently, and I have NOT messaged her, then she is messaging OM.

So anyway, for two months it was obsessive. That is why I had a thread entitled "W is obsessed with OM". She was literally chatting with him ALL night and ALL day.

3) Wife had spent 8 consecutive Saturday nights at OM's house. She also spent New Years with him, although IT WAS MY BIRTHDAY!! We spent 14 consecutive New Years with each other and we always went out of town and had an awesome vacation. This year she chose to leave me alone in our house, and I baby sat our D3 and watched fireworks on TV on my own.

4) She had cut off all physical contact and affection. She bought me a self massager for Christmas and said "Thats to replace the back rubs i give you. So now when I move out, you will have a way to massage yourself.

5) She took D3 to the zoo with OM on a Saturday while I was out work. It was without my knowledge because I would not have allowed it. She thought OM was a family man because his brother that we know very well is very much a family man. He has two little daughters and never does anything without them, so his loser brother OM MUST be the same as him.

6) She said when he moves to our city they are getting an apartment together and D3 will have her own room there so she can spend the weekends with them.

7) She would spend two nights home, and two nights at OM and then repeat. This would mean that one week she would spend 4 nights home and three nights there, and the following week it would be the reverse. But all Saturday nights were always with OM.

8) When she was with OM, she never messaged me unless it was about D3. Indact, there was one time when she didn't even message me to ask about D3 or me, for a whole day, and then a whole night, and then half of the next day.

Now for what has happened over the last month or so.

1) She has admitted her and OM have nothing in common.

2) When I told her that OM will never replace me as our D3's father or step father or whatever she thinks he is, she said "Are you kidding me? Of course not. When we went to the zoo, OM had no idea how to interact with D3. He could not get her attention, he had no idea how to show affection to her, and D3 (who is VERY out going and gives out hugs and kisses to everyone who comes over) did not seem to like him or give him any attention. Laurie noted that in all cases she has seen the wife will DEFEND OM like a mother defending her kids. She says even if he had no idea and was not good with kids, it would be expected that W would say he is an awesome daddy and is great with kids and blah blah and make up a bunch of stuff. W has not planned any outgoings with D3 and OM since, she has not mentioned and apartment with a room for D3, and has reiterated that D3 should live in our marital home FULL TIME (not weekends at OM's).

3) OM is now unemployed and a full time student. So he has plenty of time right? Well W is not messaging with him even half of how it was before. When she sleeps she leaves her phone on the charger. When we hang out and play with D3 together, she leaves her phone on the kitchen counter. I have seen times when she is with me and her whatsapp contact says "last seen 4 hours ago". The longest period I have seen is 8 hours! Thats quite a long time. When both of them are unemployed.

4) When she is at OM's she spends a large part of her time messaging me. She asks how "We" are doing about D3 and I instead of just how D3 is. She asks what "We" are doing and if "We" are having fun. She leaves me a cooked dinner for every night she will be away. She messages me "Good night" and "Good morning" and to ask me "Have you eaten?" and "How was work". She messages me as soon as she leaves his house to tell me she is on her way home. Starts asking what we are going to do together, what we will eat for dinner. She sends me her GPS location from her phone maybe 3 or 4 times during her drive. I haven't even asked her where she is or when she is leaving or when she is coming. I follow the DB rules on that stuff.

5) during the state of the union presidential address last tuesday, she was watching it on TV from OM's house. I was home watching it on my own. She initiated messaging about what president was saying, and no matter how short I tried to be, she kept on messaging me about different points he was making. So I engaged her, and got into an intellectual conversation with her. Laurie said that was a great idea and that was a good call on my behalf. I engaged her on politics when she couldn't get that reaction or intellect from OM. Laurie said imagine her at OM's house, on the couch watching this probably with him. Now imagine she has her phone in her hand the whole day and she is messaging you. That is significant that she would ignore OM and chat with you while he is sitting next to her. I did well on that, and contrasted my intellect with his gamer self. When she came home I asked her if she saw the republican response, and the tea party response, her answer was yes i saw the republican response but by the tea party response OM had had enough and needed to use the TV because he had an appointment to play XBOX with some friends online. She looked frustrated with that!

5) When I told her I was going to a pyschic show on a Saturday night and if she would like to join me, she said "YES I would love too!". When I bought tickets without telling her, they came in the mail while I was at work. She sent me pictures of her holding the tickets up next to her face with a big grin on her face. She said "I can't believe you actually bought them and planned this on your own". I was horrible at that, and lack of initiative and planning from me was always a big complaint for her. Then she messaged me to say "Now I just need to convince my mom to keep D3 for the night". I answered that I had already taken care of that, and she was blown away. I got home early from work on Saturday and she was getting all dressed up. "Do I look nice baby?"..."Do you like what I am wearing?"... Then after the show, I had a GREAT time, should we go out to dinner? I'm starving. Went to our favorite italian restaurant then she posted on FB that she had the best night out in a long time.

6) She came home to spend Valentine's night with me. When Laurie found out that our tradition is that I cook fillet mignon and shrimp for her and we have dinner at home, she said I should do that again. No gift or card. So I did that and W was blown away. She said dinner was the best she has had in a long time and I am the best man she knows at cooking. I had told her while she was at OM that I made home made chocolate ice cream for myself and she said thats sounds delicious, I can't wait to come home so we can have some together. We followed dinner with ice cream. Then the most bizarre thing happened:

25yearsmlc, this may have been the test that you told me about a while back!!

It was 11pm and thats when I usually excuse myself to go to bed in my room because I get up with D3 at 6.30 and W sleeps in. When I got up to go to bed, W said "OH are you going to bed? Already?". I was caught off guard and said um yes uh its 11pm. After laying in bed for 10 mins thinking, I wondered if perhaps she wanted me to make a move...it was valentines, she had left Om and come to hang out with me, I made fillet mignon and shrimp as I do every year, we had home made GODIVA chocolate ice cream, she posted to FB saying "To all the lovers out there, have a great night! I know I am!". But then no sex? But then I think I can't go there. I don't want sex with her unless she ends it with OM. Thats completely cake eating!

So Laurie said lets look at the big picture. We need to consider how much attention she is giving OM versus the beginning of the affair. We need to also consider that she has a choice of who to be with, and for a Saturday night, and a Valentines night in the same week she has chosen ME. Laurie thinks that is significant considering she spent 8 Saturday nights and New years and my birthday with him.

She said we also need to consider that she has admitted she has nothing in common with him. She has come to realize he is not the family man she thought he was, and did NOT defend him the way an Affairee would defend their affair partner.

When I told Laurie that of course I am elated that you believe the tide is turning towards me, I am also being told on the board that she is playing me. Many have said she doesn't want me to cut her off or get in her way of her affair so she is being super nice to me.

So Laurie asked me "Do you think your W is capable of acting? Do you think she is sly enough to pull that off without EVER showing any anger?". My answer was no i don't think she can but I don't want to be niave either. Then Laurie said, remember that your W told you about OM BEFORE it got physical and as soon as she felt she was in too far. She could not lie to you, as much as she wanted to try him out first before she blows her marriage over it. She couldn't cheat on you because she doesn't have it in her. You have done too much for her and supported her for many years, even before you had a child (I paid for W to go to college and even before that she did not work for two years and pretty much did nothing). She said I don't get the sense your wife can lie to you.

You might all think thats ridiculous. Consider this. Yesterday (the day after the db phone session) we had to take our D3 to get evaluated for speech delay. The county had sent us some forms in the mail to fill out. Because we are not organized right now with all of this confusion in our lives, we mis placed the forms. I told W call them and ask them if they will have the forms available at the testing facility and to tell them WE NEVER RECEIVED THEM. I came out of the bathroom and she is on the phone with them, and I hear her say "Yes we received the forms but we must have misplaced them because we have looked every for them". I sat there staring at her. When she hung up I said "Baby why did you just tell them we lost them. Doesn't that make us look like parents who don't care much? If she has speech delay they will think it is because we don't care about her enough to spend time with her". She looked at me puzzled and said "Well, you know I can;t lie. How long have you known me...have I ever been able to lie?". Its try she is a bad, very bad liar.

Oh and she was calling me by my first name for 2 months now. Most of the above changed have happened since Laurie's touch test. Since I started showing physical affection, she has wanted to spend more time with me, message and chat with me even from OM's, she is down to just two nights with OM and 5 at home, she has spent a saturday night, followed by valentines night with me, and now ANOTHER saturday night (tonight) with me. She is not defending OM and his lack of abilities with our D3 (Laurie also commented that is a huge turn off for women. You need to be good with kids to pull it off with a mother). Now she calls me baby, honey, sweetie etc.. When I mentioned my back huts, which it always hurts and has done for a decade now, she had for 2.5 months now not responded to that statement. The max I got was go take some ibprofen. Last week after I was giving her some touch her and there, she gave me a 20 minute back rub when I mentioned my back hurts.

So she is initiating touch, she is CHOSING to spend time with me, not defending OM, well..... I think you get the picture. I have to get going now because W keeps looking over at me and wondering what I am typing.

there was more than this but its in my notes. Will have to look and then type up the rest tomorrow.

I was advised to continue with the touch experiment. Continue with affection. give compliments (25yearmlc I need to write a post regardinn compliments because you hit a nerve with your last post. I need to address this). I was advised to postpone the boundaries because it has only been just less than 3 months at to have so many positives is rare, and she doesn;t want me to blow it with a money based boundary.

Be back soon!

25, yes we need to expand on and tackle the compliments issue. I failed miserable at that. But in my defense wife is the type where it it sometimes hard to compliment her because she doesn't believe it.

The problems goes back to when I was 20 and she was 17. After we git together she gained some weight and I will admit I was rude and immature about it. There was peer pressure and I wasn't mature enough yet to overlook it. She never really got over it.

When she was pregnant I would say baby you are so beautiful. Lets take pregnancy pics like other people do. She would say you are just saying that. How can you feel I am attractive? I am the size of a whale.

Over the years she began to make me feel that if I over did the size of the compliment she is not going to believe it is sincere. Even now with OM. In the picture it makes it difficult because he is laying it on thick, and I constantly feel like I an walking on egg shells.

The other point I wanted to address was your comment about the next recession causing another sex issue. I want to remind every one that it was nit poverty that caused my lack if sex drive. It was wife's reaction to the poverty.

She did never offer to start working to help me and at the sane time she withheld compliments about how I was providing for the family. Those things rocked my world and I told her MANY times.

I even cried one time and told her that she makes me feel I am failing her Abd D3 by making me feel I am not providing well enough.

Like I said before, we forget sometimes that any if us LBS. Could have been the WAS and its really who held up the longest who becomes lbs and the first to give up becomes was. There is always fault from both parties.

I see you mentioned someone saying your W will move on to a new OM. Did you tell Laurie that you snooped and found your wife texting another man and exactly what she said to him?

No I don't think that's relevant. The guy lives out of state and is married. He told my wife first that he was having issues with his wife. So my wife was telling him that he needed to go to counseling before it ruins their marriage. The part thar made me mad was the part about 'I am telling all my married friends who have any marital issues that they should go to counseling. It would have saved my narriage'.

There is not a chance in hell that W gets into another situation with this gutmy or any other Guy. I know how she is and that's not how she is.

We just spent another evening together and she was being very sweet to me. What stands between a recincilluation between us now is OM. If that relationship ends I am certain we begin to repair the damage.


Another one of those gut feelings. I think we all know our spouses well. This is her little failing fantasy and then I am quite certain she will be done with tgmhis fantasy stuff.

I mean yes I told Laurie but no its not relevant. I believe its not part of the equation and I guess neither does Laurie because she didn't comment on it. The only comment was what 25 said which is it is sad that she thought our M. Could be fixed with counseling but then still landed herself in an affair.

Then I'm afraid I (nor anyone else here) can help you. It would probably be best just to continue with your DB coach.


Starsky

Yes you are right about we all know our S but let me tell you this. For the amount of time I was with my W before she decided to have an A I believed that that was something she would never do to me. Boy was I ever wrong. I'm not trying to dash your hopes I'm just trying to tell you to not be so over confident that once this A is over that she will come back to you because if you have your hopes set on it and it doesn't happen you are really going to be hurting.

So at this point do you still plan on letting her carry out her A without setting any boundaries in regards to money? I certainly don't want to go against what Laurie has told you but I do have the experience of A. I'm not suggesting you throw her out at all but I believe that once you put some boundaries in place your W will start to respect you and remember I was told this by my W once we R. My W did not find it attractive at all that she was able to do whatever she pleased during that time. So Laurie had nothing to say about your W's comment about "if we had gone to counseling even a week or two before I started talking to OM, I am sure I would have been more than happy in our M and none of this would have happened."? I find this comment very bizarre. She had a timeline on your M? WEll like I said I'm not here to tell you to go against what Laurie has told you.

Cherry picking things you want to hear is going to make you feel good short term and hurt you long term. A comment your w made about mc is nearly meaningless in your sitch. There are a lot of if-onlies - if only she had asked and you agreed and both committed to putting all your effort into making your marriage work, and even then most marriages that make it into mc are still already too far gone to bring back. Its wishful thinking combined with self justification. Using that comment is building your case on top of an imaginary foundation.

Your w even gave you feedback on what went wrong, which you discounted here and decided for yourself what the most important, and by implication ONLY important part of it was.... But when she, or laurie, say what you want to hear, what agrees with your interpretation of things, its the gospel truth to you.

Wishful thinking gets you in trouble, leaves you blind to whats really happening, causes you to miss real opportunities. Be careful of your gut, your gut got you to the point of a wife and mother openly cheating with your full support and approval. Because your gut says she'll be back. And you seek and attach yourself to what supports your assumptions and your wishes.

Saying its not time to have a boundary, where boundary means a clear nonpunitive declaration of how you will be treated as a human being, is like saying its not time yet for you to have oxygen, youll wait to get your oxygen when your w seems ready to accept your need for oxygen without leaving you. Not having boundaries of who you are, what your core values are, and how you will be treated, is like denying the fact of your self. That is how a wife can say i will see you later after i get back from my lover's and by the way buy me gas to get there.

As w can see, having an open marriage is within the boundaries of acceptability to you, as long as your mind is convinced its only temporary. And your mind is satisfied with the scraps it has found to back up that belief.

Anyway, db coaches are solution based. Have you worked out what short term goals you have, and what progress looks like? Have you written down your actions and results? You do have positives to log, for sure, but the goals to measure your progress need to be more specific and concrete than "to save my marriage".

Be careful of your tendency to cherrypick...

Best of luck to you

I hope you go back and reread what everyone has said. You have some really wonderful vets that have taken the time to try and help, and then you discount the suggestions because the sitchs here are very dysfunctional, while you are not. Thanks, but im only going to listen to the things that are in line with my thinking. But, give me advise on this thing ive decided needs work on.

The hardest thing to do in life is to look at you when someone else's faults are SO glaring. The courage that these "dysfunctional" people on these boards has shown me, is truely amazing. It would be easy to just look at my H and say, geez, when he figures this out he'll come crawling back because he had it so good. I mean, comparatively, he did. I'm an attractive personal training, mother of 2. I am active sexually, fun, do most everything around the house, have similar hobbies. We have a blast together. He has said this. There is something wrong with me, you are amazing. His friends are floored that he would even think of leaving me. True story. But I'm not perfect. We've been together a long time, and I need to look at M and my life differently. I look at this sitch as a wake up call. Live more authentically, more in the moment. Reading DR was life changing for me. It's a chance to work on being the best me I can. Ever story here gives me hope. Each one! Of course I hope my M works.

I hope your M works out. All of us do. I will echo that it doesn't seem like I can help at all either. Good luck!

I would think it is safe to assume that you do not know your spouse that well.