Here's something else to consider, something that I was told (and did NOT want to hear!) in my own sitch:
If you don't do a mix of things that re-build RESPECT with a wife who's with am OM1 (GAL, working on your own side of the street, establishing firm financial and legal boundaries, etc., etc.) . . . and you just "wait out" the affair with OM1? Yeah, your wayward wife WILL turn back to you, her "Backup Plan," while she . . .
Meant to add, "Because a woman ties her feelings of LOVE very closely with her feelings of RESPECT, if you allow respect (and attraction) to erode, you will eventually see her LOVE for you erode.
I try to advise men to -- instead of focusing on trying to get her to LOVE you again -- work instead on building ATTRACTION and RESPECT. Do that, and love will follow.
Meant to add, "Because a woman ties her feelings of LOVE very closely with her feelings of RESPECT, if you allow respect (and attraction) to erode, you will eventually see her LOVE for you erode.
I try to advise men to -- instead of focusing on trying to get her to LOVE you again -- work instead on building ATTRACTION and RESPECT. Do that, and love will follow.
Starsky
In really thinking about your sitch, I really looked at mine. While I did do some things similar, I really did consistently put up boundaries with H. After we find out I was pregnant, OW ended it...for like a week. New years eve I get a call from my best friends cousin. Yep, she lives next door to OW and had been watching H go over there for months. Tormented over what to do. He was over there right now. I called and left him a message to please call me. That I knew where he was at and he needed to meet me to talk. I had no idea what I was going to say. I prayed. I was honest. I simply asked him where he saw all of this going. I was calm. He said he had no idea. I told him that I wasn't ready to tell him to get out. I want to be able to give him some space to figure this out, but that this limbo was killing me. I said i may wake up timorrow and feel differently, but this was where i was at. I layed out my boundaries, no calling & texting OW from our home. No family time used to see her, no money spent on her. With in 2 weeks he ended it with her.
I'm not suggesting to you what to do. But even my H had the decency to feel like crap the WHOLE time since DB. He didn't want to hang out with me to give me the wrong idea. He would get so upset when we did just enjoy a moment because he was confused. I see none of that in your wife. She seems compleletly unapologetic. My H had panic attacks he was so torn up. And honestly, had I not seen this conflict and pain...I'd probably burned his stuff & changed the locks.
I've said multiple times that I personally wouldn't find this behavior attraction. In my situation, after I really spoke my truth calmly, my H completely changed his tune. I've said before that he has told me how attractive that was. And I didn't tell him to get out...well, at that time
I'll be interested to hear what Laurie said. No one wants to contradict your couch, but we all have been listening to you for awhile and I wonder if we just hear something different than your coach.
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
Am I the only one here thi king she is putting kind of a sad excuse to her affair?
You missed the boat by a week in for counseling else everything would be different?! There must have been a butt load of other things going on if one week was the deal breaker between saving her marriage with the father of her child and some OM who " wooed her". And she just couldn't resist.
Something is very fishy to me.
I by no means mean to challenge a DB coach, but do they think it's ok to let a cheating spouse cake eat with no boundaries as long as they see the WAW give some positive attention to the LBS? let an affair carry on the way it does, and then she comes home to you and you act like a sexless husband and wife?
What does Laurie think about that one? I'm curious.
I've also been thinking the same thing. I also don't like that one week time frame excuse she gave, something isn't quite right. Letting that affair carry on with absolutely no boundaries IMHO is bad and portrays a weak and needy S and it also shows the cheating S that they can do whatever they please with no consequences. That also can lead to another A happening again down the road should things get rocky.
M 44 W 43 S 23 S 15 INILWY 9/11 Divorce Mediation started 3/13 June 30 the day W is moving out
Am I the only one here thi king she is putting kind of a sad excuse to her affair?
You missed the boat by a week in for counseling else everything would be different?! There must have been a butt load of other things going on if one week was the deal breaker between saving her marriage with the father of her child and some OM who " wooed her". And she just couldn't resist.
Something is very fishy to me.
I by no means mean to challenge a DB coach, but do they think it's ok to let a cheating spouse cake eat with no boundaries as long as they see the WAW give some positive attention to the LBS? let an affair carry on the way it does, and then she comes home to you and you act like a sexless husband and wife?
What does Laurie think about that one? I'm curious.
No, you're not the only one, gm23. I was thinking the exact same thing.
Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I just don't think the DB approach is sufficient in cases of blatant, unrepentant infidelity. Other skills and techniques need to be brought to the table, to be used in conjunction with it. I'm sure that response will elicit criticism from the usual suspects, but it was my experience in my own sitch and also what I've observed on here studying literally thousands of affairs.
Starsky
This^^^^^
M 44 W 43 S 23 S 15 INILWY 9/11 Divorce Mediation started 3/13 June 30 the day W is moving out
Meant to add, "Because a woman ties her feelings of LOVE very closely with her feelings of RESPECT, if you allow respect (and attraction) to erode, you will eventually see her LOVE for you erode.
I try to advise men to -- instead of focusing on trying to get her to LOVE you again -- work instead on building ATTRACTION and RESPECT. Do that, and love will follow.
Starsky
In really thinking about your sitch, I really looked at mine. While I did do some things similar, I really did consistently put up boundaries with H. After we find out I was pregnant, OW ended it...for like a week. New years eve I get a call from my best friends cousin. Yep, she lives next door to OW and had been watching H go over there for months. Tormented over what to do. He was over there right now. I called and left him a message to please call me. That I knew where he was at and he needed to meet me to talk. I had no idea what I was going to say. I prayed. I was honest. I simply asked him where he saw all of this going. I was calm. He said he had no idea. I told him that I wasn't ready to tell him to get out. I want to be able to give him some space to figure this out, but that this limbo was killing me. I said i may wake up timorrow and feel differently, but this was where i was at. I layed out my boundaries, no calling & texting OW from our home. No family time used to see her, no money spent on her. With in 2 weeks he ended it with her.
I'm not suggesting to you what to do. But even my H had the decency to feel like crap the WHOLE time since DB. He didn't want to hang out with me to give me the wrong idea. He would get so upset when we did just enjoy a moment because he was confused. I see none of that in your wife. She seems compleletly unapologetic. My H had panic attacks he was so torn up. And honestly, had I not seen this conflict and pain...I'd probably burned his stuff & changed the locks.
I've said multiple times that I personally wouldn't find this behavior attraction. In my situation, after I really spoke my truth calmly, my H completely changed his tune. I've said before that he has told me how attractive that was. And I didn't tell him to get out...well, at that time
I'll be interested to hear what Laurie said. No one wants to contradict your couch, but we all have been listening to you for awhile and I wonder if we just hear something different than your coach.
Very good post T and I really want to hear what Laurie has had to say to SM. I really think just sitting back and letting a S carry on an A as blatant as this one is really doing damage to their M. How is it possible that SM's W has any respect for him at all. I mean for her to just be so out in the open with her A is the ultimate in disrespect at least when my W had her A she tried to deny and hide it.
M 44 W 43 S 23 S 15 INILWY 9/11 Divorce Mediation started 3/13 June 30 the day W is moving out
I'm also not of the "if it conflicts with what your DB coach says," we should just all keep our mouths shut. I would use teh analogy of a preacher, and the Bible: "If what a DB coach says conflicts with what MWD teaches in DivorceBusting or Divorce Remedy, you should challange your coach." I did not say "if what your DB coach says does NOT match DBIng, we should all just keep our mouths shut." That is some detailed misquoting...
I simply said if his DB coach's advice veered from MINE, to follow the coach, b/c I humbly admit I'm no expert, despite my personal experience or the thousands of posts I've read here....
But I agree that if Laurie or any DB coach said something that really seemed inconsistent with DB/DR or MWD, then yes I'd HAVE to get clarification as to why. Or make sure I was taking in her advice accurately.
I had 15 seesions with a DB coach and I can't recall a SINGLE time the advice conflicted with DBing (or MWD-which ought to be the same).
IF SM's wording of what she tells him AND his wording TO her, is accurate,
YES, I'd need clarification. OR a different coach. Starsky has a point.
But SM, don't take this to mean I assume you have accurately portrayed all the information to her OR what she told you, to us.
B/C
I have a VERY HARD time believing that Laurie hears the same facts WE hear and has such a different take on it. Someone is getting a really different set of facts. (Maybe it's us. Maybe WE don't have the full story and she does)... Does she give you a timeline for this "acceptance of an affair" behavior?
DId I read somewhere that a one week timeline existed?
Is how "nice" your wife is to you WHEN she is there in the home, the only measure of progress?
And what Gabby said too, made a lot of sense to me. Somethin's not smellin' right.
I read nothing in my copy of DR that says a betrayed spouse is to be a doormat and not enforce strong boundaries in the face of an unrepentant affair. In fact, the "After the Last Resort Technique" teaches precisely the opposite.
Starsky
Starsky, when you put it that ^^^ way (which is how the facts seem to most of us) I'd have to agree. Though I think SM would argue she is sorry...I'd say she WAS sorry before she began it, and then she chose to anyhow.
SM, I'm NOT saying to toss her stuff on the lawn and file. I don't THINK any of us are saying to do that.
You have so many other options as to how to set a boundary here.
Though I agree with your assessment that she won't leave you for OM, it's not for the same reasons you have. After all, How can she leave you & the d for OM? He provides nothing but sex. He has NO job, not two.
It would makes me nuts.
***BUT I see no reason for her to stop seeing him either...and THAT is a big problem.
I don't see her deciding you are a better catch than she thought before, AND THEN returning home. That's partly b/c she has nothing to lose by continuing to see him, as you've given her no indication that she MUST stop at any point...
It seems to me she has one of 3 goals in mind (assuming thought goes into this at all).
Either she 1) intends to search for and find an OM who can provide what you provide PLUS intimacy, for whom she'll leave you. (& She's already talking to OM#2 about HIs sex life and yours...)
AND - OR
2) she intends to continue having her intimacy needs met elsewhere and coming home to you, for back up attention, a roof over her head, childcare, etc...
AND OR
3) she hopes that lightning will strike and she will "FALL in love" with you again (as if no free will is involved with choosing to love someone, or keeping a vow) and she will want no one else again, ever...and then all will be well.
This seems to be your plan, right? To win her back? SM, NOTHING AND NO ONE HERE says you don't still work on you. NOTHING.
It's clear to me that you have some serious inner exploration to do to have gotten you here in the first place.
SOME of that has to do with ignoring so many of her needs and putting her down (the compliment thriftiness really got to me)
& putting all this in financial terms as to how it makes YOU feel as a man.
I mean, will every recession result in you having no sex drive or damaging your self image as a man? How terrifying for you and whoever is your future partner.
Those are significant things to work on with a professional.
AND Some of the inner exploration is about the way you have put up with what most of us would find intolerable.
I cannot/will not tell you what to do. Sorry if it seems I am. Truly. No one here wants to dictate to you.
But if it were me & my h wasn't physiologically sick (as in, a brain tumor sick) but was having an open affair, and telling me about it
AND then coming home pretending all was well and "taking care of me" when I was sick, then no, I would not do as you are doing.
I would work on MYSELF no matter what, and for the record, I STILL DO work on me. Always will.
Yes at first this "work" is damn hard. Having revelations about &making changes with my anger/resentment, was NOT easy.
But once learned, once healed, then "working" on our lives is just what we do, it's how life is, throwing us new curve balls along the way. We get skills for handling what we face. And when needed, as it is often, We get new tools.
I just went to the workshop "Essential Experience", (aka "EE") which I have mentioned to others. You go there to gain clarity/purpose in their lives & get rid of baggage that is affecting your life and choicews now, which CAN save a marriage (Autumn Leaves, NavyGuy & Power Of Now, have gone & got a lot out of it.)
I now do "team" to support the participants b/c I went through it myself years ago. So I still do my "work".
For the first time since doing EE, I got to meet another DBer-PowerOfNow- while I was there. Very cool...
I see now that there's a lot of information about someone you can't get here, obviously.
PON's main relevant lesson was not to give up on his marriage, but to truly discover how to connect/love deeply, WHILE getting the respect he needs. And how that helps his wife connect to him, as well.
Also He now KNOWS he'll be more than "alright", with or without his w. He's a great guy, who wants to work on himself and his life.
I THINK that makes him more likely to successfully stay married. I'm SURE it makes him more likely to be a happy fulfilled man, regardless.
But I digress. IN SHORT, The more you work on you, the more likely your self respect will grow enough for you to see this more clearly.
Sorry for your confusion. But if you are TOTALLY HONEST with Laurie, as you said, then maybe you're leaving out a few details w/us?? Maybe you have other issues in your marital history, or there is more to them, than we know.
It's rare for such a dichotomy to exist between the posters here and a DB coach, so I wonder about what you actually told her and what she actually told you, in FULL.
Sometimes what you recall us saying, or what you think we meant, is pretty selective. So Back to Gabby's comment..."somethin's fishy"...yeah, to me it is.
SM, maybe you don't even realize your bias in the way you speak b/c for sure, you don't always realize it here.
I so hope you gain clarity.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I have been reading your threads and can see your mistakes so clearly. We can always see others' mistakes, right? The biggest one I see is your paralysis. You are spinning and you need to stop reacting to every little glimmer of hope or despair; breathlessly seeking some magic bullet that does not exist. There is no quick fix, you just have to gut it out and stop being a doormat. Next, give her NO money to subsidize her A. Just flatly quote what Starsky said and then shut up. DO NOT argue or plead your case. That would be some weak-@ss sh!t. So, be strong and do not give her another reason to lose respect for you. Tell her when she brings it up; meanwhile, lock up the funds. There are several reasons for this; most importantly: You will not finance her romance. Also, if it comes to the worst case, a judge in a divorce case looks down on wasting marital assets; especially wasting $$$ on OM. It's a double edged sword. It makes WAW's OM look like her gigolo while making you look like a hapless cuckold. The judge will really be unimpressed by you for allowing this to happen, with you knowing exactly what the $$$ would be used for. And I doubt that's what you want. Have some respect for yourself. I don't know why you didn't put you foot down as soon as you found out about OM. Now, you have it set up so that she can carry on her A with impunity. That needs to stop. She does not respect you. And it shows. She now expects you to pay for her and OM shenanigans. She wanted you to buy her a more fuel efficient car to visit OM??!!! You have got to be kidding. Don't you think she is yukking it up with OM and her friends about this? Creepy, yeah; but she is in a creepy place right now. Do not help her stay there. Oh, I know it scares the crap out of you if she gets mad; so what? It is written somewhere that a marriage can survive a cheating spouse's anger, but it cannot survive an ongoing affair. It should scare the crap out of you when she acts all happy and chirpy. Why? Because she has it made and is cake eating to the max. At this point, "happy" is bad news for you. All that means is that she is happy with the current state of her A with OM, not happy to be with you. "Mad" is better because it at least shows that you are setting some boundaries. She will chafe at boundaries. At least it shows some self-respect if you put some in place. Put your boundaries in place. Do not subsidize her affair with $$$. Plus, look at what you are role-modeling to your child. Don't think kids don't notice the weakness you are showing by allowing this to continue without consequences. Do you want your child to think that this is how Mom is supposed to treat Dad? Do you want your child to think that Dad is weak instead of being strong and leading? Would you want your grown child to pay for their future spouse's A? What would you advise in a sitch like that? You have asked for and received all kinds of advice from some very heavy hitters. Yet, you tend to ignore it and keep asking for more books or tips to try to win your W back. You keep saying that you know your W better than she knows herself; that OM is "not her type." This could not possibly be true. If it were, she wouldn't be with him and you wouldn't be in this sitch. What is true is that you have let your W know that she can screw around all she wants, on your dime, and you won't do anything about it. Have some respect for yourself. You are also operating under the mistaken assumption that if your W tires of her A, she will automatically come back to you. Wrong! What makes you believe that she sees you as her only other option? It's time to stop the analyzing; it is of no help. It's time for action.
Wow. OK I have been with setting up my new business and signing documents etc. I am home now and W is here so its a little tricky to post right now.
Everyone please hold your horses. There are perfectly sane explanations forveverything Laurie advised.
In fact one of her biggest piece of advise was to take a break from posting here because of the mixed advice. She literally told me I have walked a thousands of people through this and you must listen to me and ignore those folks.
She said listen to them on how to better yourself and how to confront your own inner demons but leave the coaching of how to handle your wife to me, and your own gut.
I just wanted to type up the conversation to journal it and also for us to expand on it. I will try to get the laptop in a spot where wife can't see and type some if the conversation up because like I said I even questioned some of UT!!
Me, H-34 now 38 W-32 now 35 T-13 now 18 years M-6 now 9 Daughter 3 years now 7 Bomb 11/27/12 - OM 1 year in house separation Reconciliation 12/2013. Healed now 2017
