Soul, even if your H didn't tell you what happened, with the note falling out of his lunch bag, that doesn't excuse his reaction to you. Besides, if he was a better man, he would have used it to his advantage. He could have embellished your notes in such a way that the guys he worked with would have been completely jealous of him. We know he isn't opposed to lying, so he could have told any story he wanted.
If I was you, I would have stopped sending them, too. And it floors me that he *does* remember, but *doesn't* know why you wouldn't be doing it now.
I always wonder about the "rewriting of history." H and I can disagree on something that happened 20 minutes ago. We often talk about recording our conversations. We did once and it came in handy, for me anyway. H didn't like that it proved him wrong. I don't think we did it again after that. It's not like it helped anything really. I don't know what you can do when it's something like you've described, where he denies giving you a teddy or a ring. Those seem pretty significant. Or maybe they were just significant to you and didn't mean anything to him when he gave them to you. I think people just remember what's important to them. If one person remembers something good, and the other person remembers something bad, perhaps that's just how they experienced it. You can disagree on what happened (he gave you the bear or not) but the personal experience is what you remember. You really truly valued the gift, whereas it probably didn't mean cr@p to him when he gave it to you. You'll remember it, he won't.
It's also possible that he really doesn't know what is true or not true anymore, because he lies so much about everything.
I only know what my H told me about his ex and their breakup. But my experience with her personally after we got M'd? I know I don't like her, she is not a good person. But who's to say what she used to be like. I used to be nice, too, but feel like I'm turning angry and bitter because of H. Heck, I could be her right now.
I agree with sometimes not seeing the big picture. I can't say what your H tried, how much he communicated with you about his issues. The thing is, though, what he presents still has to be functional. His lying could be an insurmountable issue. Wanting from you but not being willing to address his own behavior will not work.
LIS, I could have written your post. I have good days, sometimes even a week or two at a time. But I experience exactly the same thing you posted -- often! I can't do the crazy. It's the inspiration for my screen name. One minute my H is threatening D because of lack of sex, the next he's telling me he recognizes how selfish he's been for the last 19 years and he's going to devote the next 19 to my happiness. And then back again.
The only thing that keeps me grounded is my own logic. I'm very creative, but I'm not much of a dreamer. That pie-in-the-sky "love can fix anything" naivety is long gone from me. I know that if I can't draw it out, I can't make it work. I'm sure that's my conflict with the "faith" discussions earlier in this thread. H and I had some conversation yesterday about our R. I only got his attention because I spent the night at my BFF's house the night before and H didn't know what was going on. It was completely innocent, but if he thinks it was something more and it lights a fire under him, I'm certainly not going to correct him.
It was a long, un-emotional discussion, but not helpful to bringing us together unfortunately. The opposite for me, in fact. I recognize that one of my traits is not being very sympathetic and understanding when people think differently than me. As long as it isn't impacting me, I'm perfectly fine with it. I see people with pink hair and nose rings and tattoos top to bottom and I just don't get it, but it doesn't impact me either. When it does, that's when I start to lose it.
The hardest aspect of this for me with H is his ability to paint himself wonderful and me horrible, without any basis in reality. There were several times in the conversation yesterday when he would make a statement to me about how wonderful he was ("I build my life around you.") When I asked him how, he couldn't give me a single example. Because there aren't any. Sooo much of our conversation is like this, where I'm trying to pick through the BS and actually make some progress. Unfortunately, the next day, he would say the same thing.
The one positive thing (for me) that came out of yesterday was a discussion of lying in a M. I consider this basic. It's essential for me. The discussion about it was so crazy, it had my head spinning. To sum it up, he believes it's okay for him to do and not for me. I'm supposed to forgive him, but he's not sure he could forgive me if I did. I can't do anything with that. So I keep running that around in my head over and over, trying to settle my jumbled feelings, and simply, objectively, accept that it *cannot* work, whether I want it to or not.
"accept that it *cannot* work, whether I want it to or not." If you accept if cannot work, it won't work.
At some point, though, you'll have to talk about the lying issue, since it seems to be a deal breaker for you (it is for me, too.) But now it's not the best time for that.
We all have trouble when someone doesn't see things our way. It's part of being human. A good thing to do is try to figure out why he says the things he says. Try to put yourself in his shoes.
"If you accept it cannot work, it won't work." Yup! I'm too old for that "ant and the rubber tree plant" philosophy. I've beaten my head against enough brick walls to know that the only thing that does is give you a bloody forehead and a headache. I also know my limits. Dishonesty and double-standards are not something I even care to put any effort into making work.
I think you might be right, scaredsilly, which is why I have no desire to M again after this one is over. Both of my g-mas lost their H's years ago. I don't think either of them ever even dated another man. And I didn't get the impression that it's because they felt no one could ever compare. I think it's more likely because they knew the next one probably would. I knew both my g-pas. Even as a kid, I could see how difficult they were. I never actually saw them beat their W's, but I could easily imagine they did.
LOL! With all the bad M examples some of us have all around us growing up, it's a wonder any of us still wanted to get M'd. I guess it's our own arrogance that makes us believe that somehow "ours will be different."
The only alternative I've come up with to address the lying issue is the old saying, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." So that's where I've landed, for now anyway. I can't get H to stop lying, so I'm going to pick it up myself. If I can't get honesty in this R, I can at least get parity. Who knows, maybe his experiencing a little of what he dishes out will enlighten him. Regardless, it works for me because at least we'll both be operating from the same instruction manual.
BTW, this is not something I would ever suggest to anyone else, it's a last resort option for me. H says that saving our M is of paramount importance to him. When I ask him what he proposes I do about my issue with his lying, he says that I should just continue to be patient, continue to forgive him, and continue to trust him.
I've been thinking about a number of WAW sitches here. I'm going to babble on for a few minutes because it helps me think. Forgive my paraphrasing if I'm off a little bit, and feel free to correct me.
First, scaredsilly had pretty much given up on her WAH and effectively became a WAW herself, planning her future life without her H and actually being comfortable with it in many ways. So now that her H has come back, a lot has changed for her and it's very difficult to get into a comfortable routine, since it's not routine but all sort of new. Apparently she still loves him but has a lot of pain and issues to sift through. I'm not sure how much her H has addressed his original issues in the M, or what he's still bringing to it.
Then, I think of LIS. She too became a WAS after giving up on her WAH. Then he suddenly came back and claimed to want to work it out. Though LIS believed she still loved him, she wasn't entirely on board with the reconciliation. Nor had her H seemed to have addressed any of her issues with him. It's seeming now that in spite of her loving him, she's having a hard time making it work.
Then I think if Crimson's WAW, who isn't on this board but who's side is fairly well represented by C. She went all the way to D. C stuck with his DB'ing admirably, to the point that even his WAW now recognizes the significant changes in him. However, while she enjoys his company and spends time with him, she claims she just doesn't "feel" anything for him. And I get the impressions she really wants to but can't get through the wall.
As a WAW myself, I pull something from each of these, but have so many questions, too. I'm sure I'm trying to read/predict the future, but isn't that what all of us do when we "plan?" Isn't that a healthy thing?
So as I watch scaredsilly's progress, I wonder. If he's already resentful because she didn't cancel her plans and drive 100 miles to go to a concert that he wanted her to go to, is anything going to be fixed by communicating that she needs to be respected as a person with her own plans and priorities, and that she's not going to do his bidding? He was already resentful, and now he knows things in that area aren't going to improve for him. I'm suspecting that her over-functioning is not something that her WAH was complaining about before. Though I have to admit I don't really remember his issues with the M being discussed. So now, add this new change on top of his previous complaints. Does that increase the likelihood of reconciliation? It seems not, yet at the same time, I fully believe scaredsilly needs to make those changes.
For LIS, it seems to me that her WAH professes his undying love for her, then goes about life business-as-usual. He doesn't really seem to recognize the critical state of things, like even though he left for months, that she wouldn't really do that. LIS is trying desperately, but still dealing with his unchanged behavior, and her own doubts. And though her WAH was the one to walk, I feel like he has some huge issues he needs to address before the M could hope to be successful.
For C's WAW, what is the option? We can debate back and forth as to whether once you love someone, you always love them, but for her at least, it seems she doesn't agree. She has all the logical reasons to get back together with C: their son, their finances, the fact that he has changed so much. So what is stopping her? Lack of love? Fear? Or is it knowledge. That she believes she knows him now, and simply doesn't care to step back into that. When your heart is broken, your head has to take over. I believe that's the principle behind GAL'g. So her head is still working and her heart is broken. And when your head looks at it as being a bad idea, your heart is not going to heal in that direction.
Is part of the reason scaredsilly's H is back because he realized no one else was interested in "mothering" a 52yo man? Except that now that scaredsilly's time away has taught her to value herself and stop mothering (over-achieving,) is he going to stick around? Is LIS going to be able to accept her H's behaviors and reconcile? Should she? Do C and his exW simply view the world too differently that their R is irreconcilable? These conflicts and separations change us, both people in the R. Ignorance really is bliss. But when you are no longer ignorant, what next? Is it worth doing anything to save a M? Do you throw out your need for honesty and start lying yourself, because your spouse won't stop lying and at least then you can have parity? Do you not start lying and simply give up your need for honesty because it seems apparent that your spouse will never stop? Do you give up everything you want out of M because you know your spouse isn't listening anyway, but stick it out because of the kids/family/friends, etc.?
I've gotten to the point where I realize that H isn't even my friend anymore. The things he does don't bother me much anymore because I don't have any personal expectations at all. It would be like expecting a random jogger to buy me lunch. My H claims he'll do anything to save our M, but he's also said that for many years. If I tell him what I need, he has a reason why he can't oblige. I just don't know that I can continue here, and it's driving me into a spiral.
I’ve used the analogy for years that I feel like I’m drowning in a swimming pool and calling to H for help. He sees me and heads in my direction to help, but then stops on the way to chat with someone for a few minutes. I keep screaming for him, and he finally starts moving toward me again, only to stop after a few steps to chat with someone else. This happens repeatedly, and my situation gets more and more dire by the second. I have presented this feeling/analogy to H numerous times, in an attempt to get him to be more responsive to the problems in our marriage.
Now, it’s too late because I have drowned. I’m dead. H finally makes it to the pool, drags my dead body out of the water, and then asks me to come with him to visit with yet another person. When I don’t do so, because I’m dead afterall, he starts criticizing me for how rude and selfish I am, that I have a responsibility as his wife and as a Christian woman, that he has expectations that I’m neglecting and it’s wrong of me. Yet I’m still dead. I needed his help before but he ignored my pleas and let me drown. And now he seems to think that I have some answer for him for how to make me “alive” again. I don’t. I’m dead. I feel dead toward him. I can so relate to C's exW.
Temporary S isn't an option for H. He said he'd just D me. Of course, he also claims he'll never D me, so who's to say which is true. Whichever, he's not open to time apart. Plus, even if he found a way to revive me, I've been dead over 5 minutes, and there is going to be permanent damage. If he had complaints about me when I was over-functioning, I can only imagine the negativity that will come from him in the future. Even now when I'm "dead," he's still complaining about my efforts.
I want to reach a point in our R where H stops looking at me as if I'm his W and therefore can demand something from me. I'm sure it was hard for C, but I envy their sitch in a way. Time apart gave him the chance to work on himself, and her time to herself. Neither of them were demanding anything of the other because they knew they didn't have that right. They were D'ing afterall. My head is the commerical, "I don't have any money because I need a better job; I can't get a better job because I need to go to school; I can't go to school because I don't have any money," round and round, over and over.
I want to get in my car and start driving and never look back. If not for DS12, I would.
