Hi Bruce, keep your changes going, sounds like you're making some progress with yourself.
As a sometimes contract negotiator I would warn you that you're getting emotional in a business environment. The court stuff is going to be a bit nasty and your W and her legal advisors will do what it takes for her to protect herself and her son. See it from her viewpoint and perhaps you will understand she is like a mama bear trying to get a bad influence out of her and her kid's life.
That is kind of normal and understandable, and in divorce court mean things get said. If you're going to get all emotional and take each item personally and act like you're taking the high moral ground by saying she's a good mother, well, it's just counterproductive to your interests. Not defending yourself is counterproductive. No one's handing you an award for that.
There's a big difference between defending yourself and casting aspersions on her character and mothering. So it's good if you're not casting aspersions (so far the only thing she's done wrong is not want to be with you for some solid reasons). But you can defend yourself, and 25 who knows her stuff has told you how. Learn and grow, and don't get petty. I believe she suggested that depending on the grounds in the legal paperwork, you may not be hurting yourself any to admit you didn't live up to the man/dad you want to be and you want to do that now. THAT is defending your interests and working toward getting your time with your son that you need. Accusing her of being a horrible wife or mother is going to make you look bad.
You're digging out of a pretty deep hole Bruce, and you still seem not to get that. You hurt her so badly that she left the country and tried to never see you again. Now she's being fought in court so she's pulling together whatever legal points she can to keep her kid and try to get you out of her life. That's putting it in black and white.
You can get mad and vow to withdraw your friendship from her, that's your pride talking. Or you can promise and live into wanting to do better so you have a chance at being a real dad to your kid, and realize that the things that she does that hurt you come from a place of hurt in her...that you created.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Bonsoir everybody, First of all, thank you for such great feedback. No matter how thing turn out in the end, I know I've grown up already. You've grown...but "grown up"?? Who's to say?
Maybe I need more time and introspection, but in 6 months, I have changed my take on many, many things in a deep way. YES you need more than 6 months of introspection....especially b/c much of that was doing things you had to UNlearn. Your previous approach was not DBing and it was NOT directed inward, to my knowledge.
So while change are happening & that's a good positive, of course you need more time...as for the "many things in a deep way" being changed...
How so? I see small incremental changes (which are great!) in you,
but I also see quick reversals and backsliding.
Your anger & pride directs most of your interactions w/your wife. This MUST stop.
This week, I wrote one email of one line. did you post it here FIRST? Remember how we all suggested that??
It's a 180 for me. She must be thinking it's because I'm on holidays here. But when I'll be back next week, it'll be the same : I won't write everyday, I've lost the grip, the need to try to control and say things. STOP the mind reading!!!^^^
1) it's always negative, & unfair to her, (often NOT accurate,)
2) how many things doee she get credit for, with kids?
I don't have the power to change the heart of people, and in a normal situation one can try to convince, but here, it always backfires as manipulative. Therefore I need to back off. As for her point of view, I get it better now that she had to detail in a written document. I understand her reasons and see where she comes from. but right after you say you "get it", you then contradict yourself , repeatedly, below.
Nonetheless, that document is full of exagerations, half distorted truths and misleading stuff, even about my parents and my childhood. It hurts to see how far she is ready to go. From my experience, which I told you about, this^^ was NOT particularly mean or vindictive sounding.
Do you understand that relatively speaking, she's been peaceful in this whole ordeal? YOU get super angry at her and lose your objectivity.
Bruce, stay logical and ojective. You DID push her out of a car. "Expelled her"...and left her on the side of a road. Hey, I said "that's not cool"
but what I meant to say is "that's dangerous and weird!" and
MANY women would leave for that Alone, & many would report this to the police...YES Bruce, that is how it's viewed by many people in this nation.
Even if she was to come back today, if that's what she's capable of, I'm not even sure I want to be friends with someone who has the nerve to do such a thing.
Bruce, for the last time, YOU HAD "THE NERVE", NOT HER! You were a jerk to her. You did most of the things she claims, and she now put it in writing b/c she HAS to say something about her reasons...
Mind you, in my document, I will say she was a good mother. That things weren't perfect, but she was not a horrible wife. And that I want to keep that link with my son. If there is truth in her version, I don't want and I can't defend myself or deny the facts. explain this^^^ b/c it's confusing me We know there is truth to her version. Own it, and change it...and move on to the next topic....
--> I don't know if the judge will swallow her version of things because I'm not defending myself
WTH?? You have defended yourself constantly, AND you didn't fire your lawyer did you? So you are being defended.
You seem to think "not lying about your wife" is heroic on your end, but the fact is, you admitted to nearly everything she said in her letter so SHE isn't lying.
How can you not recall the inconsistencies you spouted out, and the admissions you made? Do you read our posts? I suggest you read YOUR OWN too....
don't play the matyr with me Bruce b/c I"m calling you out on it.. You are represented by a lawyer, you are seeking half custody with your son and you are discussing the finances. She's NOT alleging "abuse" in her petition (b/c YOU have told me she's not...) so none of the little stories and details matter to the judge anyway.
Anyway, it's a new me, and only God can do something now. Bye, B.
If you mean "only God can do something now" with your x w, that may be true.
But if you mean with YOU, that's a cop out. LET GOD IN,
and he can work miracles in YOU...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hello, I'm just posting to let you know what I'm doing. I'm back from France now. I asked in a one line email if I could have my S for two hours tomorrow. Answer : no, Monday would work better, what will you do and what will you feed him ? (I won't expand here on my unbelief of why she can't give me S on a Sunday, like he was busy...)
So, again, in a one line email (No 'Hi W, how are you, hope you're doing good" type of thing, no good bye or signature either), I said : play with him and cook mashed potatoes, tomato, carrots, chicken and fruit yoghurt for dessert.
- It is a 180 for me to not write as often. There was already little or no phone calls. - It's only about S. To agree on visit times she allows. - It's obviously very concise, and almost too much to the point. Another 180. - No hello, no good-bye, no name at the end. Only one line emails. Kinda rough really.
I read on this forum about the need of the WAS to have the loss feeling, and feeling she missing out on a great guy that has changed. After her declaration, I got wounded and I have emotionnaly detached big time. And I let her know that I let her go if that was what she decided. So maybe it is time for me to stop being so nice, agree-able and smiley and available, and writing nice emails and stuff. Am I swinging the the swing too far in ther opposite direction now? Is it the right way to go ?
Also, to finish the topic about my feelings after her declaration, we say in France that an exageration is a half lie. Now, I know that the lawyer must have swollen the whole thing, but still, she agreed and signed it at the end. It doesn't matter, I am not like this, and I won't lower myself in recalling all the petty things she did and tell on her. For one thing, I don't want her to feel the way I felt when I read hers. And second, it won't matter to the judge if she was mean or not anyway, I'll stick to my coming all the way, yes to reconcile and yes to have my son. No more no less.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
Hello, I'm just posting to let you know what I'm doing. I'm back from France now. I asked in a one line email if I could have my S for two hours tomorrow. Answer : no, Monday would work better, what will you do and what will you feed him ? (I won't expand here on my unbelief of why she can't give me S on a Sunday, like he was busy...)
It's not "your day" (yet --not until something is worked out by the courts)
so you were asking HER for a favor, i.e., to change HER schedule and your son's.
SHE may have had plans that involved son
OR would require a change for HER to meet your request. She is allowed to have that issue and it's not just your son who is affected by the request.
So, again, in a one line email (No 'Hi W, how are you, hope you're doing good" type of thing, no good bye or signature either), I said : play with him and cook mashed potatoes, tomato, carrots, chicken and fruit yoghurt for dessert. ask your lawyer how much information you HAVE to provide to her... I'm not telling you to be a jerk, but why not let just her know you'll "be mindful of his digestive issues" and leave it at that? - It is a 180 for me to not write as often. There was already little or no phone calls. - It's only about S. To agree on visit times she allows. good-that won't hurt.
- It's obviously very concise, and almost too much to the point. Another 180. - No hello, no good-bye, no name at the end. Only one line emails. Kinda rough really. it shows detachment, which you need. No pursuit for now.
I read on this forum about the need of the WAS to have the loss feeling, and feeling she missing out on a great guy that has changed. so, how are you showing her that you're a great guy who has changed?
After her declaration, I got wounded and I have emotionnaly detached big time. And I let her know that I let her go if that was what she decided. I'm not sure how you "detached," other than being angry. I know you told her you'd let her go IF that's what she wanted. But most of your actions contradict those words so if you meant them, your actions must match up. So maybe it is time for me to stop being so nice, agree-able and smiley and available, and writing nice emails and stuff. WHY CHANGE? B/C you have not gotten her back yet? That proves that your "changes" are fake. You're still manipulating and trying to get specific results YOU want. You are NOT letting her go as you just said you would.
Do you see that?
So why be nasty to her now?
True, You are pulling back. Good. You ought to pull back, and keep it short when you communicate. But I'm not sure what you mean about how "NICE" you've been to her...
When YOU think you are "being nice & agreeable" & chatting more, you are really just pursuing her b/c you want her back. That's still all about what YOU want, again.
What good would being mean or nasty do you? Or your son?
She wants space and freedom. With that space and some legal changes AND custody changes--she'll see the results and consequences of the choices she made.
Let that happen.
Am I swinging the the swing too far in ther opposite direction now? Is it the right way to go ? No it's not. Plus you're very VERY impatient. Your "changes" have not existed nearly long enough for her to notice. How long has it been that you've been doing 180s? A month? Less? Yet you already want to change course.
This shows how superficial the changes are, b/c they're all surface things. And when you don't get IMMEDIATE rewards, you want to quit or punish or change direction.
I know this hurts, but come on Bruce, stick with it.
Also, to finish the topic about my feelings after her declaration, we say in France that an exageration is a half lie. Now, I know that the lawyer must have swollen the whole thing, but still, she agreed and signed it at the end. It doesn't matter, I am not like this, and I won't lower myself in recalling all the petty things she did and tell on her. If you brag about how you won't stoop to her level, you are stooping to her level. AND If it's not relevant to child custody, it's really not worth mentioning. Here's what you need to understand about divorce in Canada...QUOTE:
"The only way you will be granted a Divorce in Canada is if you can prove to the courts that your marriage has broken down and cannot be repaired. Currently, there are three ways your can legally prove a marriage breakdown. That is by completion of a one year separation from your spouse or providing valid proof that adultery or abuse occurred. Most Divorces in Canada are granted based on the completion of a one year separation – this is called a “No Fault Divorce”."
Bruce, your wife & you have been separated for a year now, so NO fault grounds are needed. And if she wanted to cite fault, she'd have to go for the abuse and the pushing her out of the car MAY qualify, as might the food issues.
But she doesn't sound interested in claiming fault grounds,
BECAUSE she said things about you two not having enough in common & it being irretrievably broken. So her version of marital events is legally irrelevant, as is yours.
Do you understand what I"m saying? None of it matters, LEGALLY, even if it hurts your feelings...it's NOT an issue for the courts.
For one thing, I don't want her to feel the way I felt when I read hers. And second, it won't matter to the judge if she was mean or not anyway,
CORRECT...IMO, There's never a good reason to go the nasty route. In fact, being nasty now will only make her choice to leave, look smart and valid.
I'll stick to my coming all the way, yes to reconcile and yes to have my son. No more no less.
Forget TALKING about reconciliation or "being open to it" now. For NOW, focus only on your son.
At least ACT AS IF you are moving forward and assuming you'll be a single father until MUCH later....
b/c she won't fear losing you if she thinks you're still TRYING to get her back and she'll see every "change" you are making
as yet another ploy to get her back.
Instead, Make this about you being the best Bruce you can be, the best pere you can be, and a man only a fool would leave.
But the more you pester her and seem controlling
the easier it'll be for her to NOT miss you.
You want her to miss the fun, smart, witty, LOVING man you were before your ego and pride were wounded. Be that guy. Let her miss THAT guy and as she sees you becoming a good father, she will HAVE to wonder about the costs of losing you...
See, if you're a jerk to her - then you probably won't get much custody...and she'll never know what type of father you could have become.
But when she sees that you really are a good dad AND that her reasons for leaving you were valid before, BUT ARE NOT VALID NOW...b/c you really are a different man,
THEN she'll fear
1) losing a great guy AND
2) having some OW helping to raise her son.
Let her fear that..without you pointing it out or bringing it up...(ever...)
but The more you insist you are still trying to reconcile, in the face of her divorce papers AND her claims that you don't care about the boy - but just winning her back,
the more it'll all look as if the "father thing" is a charade-
and all you still want is HER
and that this is all really about you not losing the "competition"... it'll appear as if she's not even who or what you love,
Winning is.
And Bruce, there are moments I fear that this is true, that all you really want is not to lose or be the rejected party.
Stay the course but drop the "reconciling" part for now. You can be open to it, internally. But stop advertising it.
She KNOWS you want her back. What we're trying to get YOU to see, is that you'd have a much better shot at it-
if she believed you cared more about your son, than you care about winning.
Please make this^^^ the TRUTH.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Answer : no, Monday would work better, what will you do and what will you feed him ? (I won't expand here on my unbelief of why she can't give me S on a Sunday, like he was busy...)
I don't see why this couldn't be true. Not questioning her was the right thing to do. It's not a tug of war.
Quote:
So, again, in a one line email (No 'Hi W, how are you, hope you're doing good" type of thing, no good bye or signature either), I said : play with him and cook mashed potatoes, tomato, carrots, chicken and fruit yoghurt for dessert.
Nice healthy meal!
Quote:
I read on this forum about the need of the WAS to have the loss feeling, and feeling she missing out on a great guy that has changed.
Quote:
So maybe it is time for me to stop being so nice, agree-able and smiley and available, and writing nice emails and stuff.
That's contradictive. How will she miss a great guy if you plan on not being him?
Not questioning the authenticity of her statements is not being agree-able.
I don't think being concise and to the point will hurt your sitch. I can imagine it would help. Showing you detach and care about your S is very important. As long as you pursue her and she feels pressured, won't she feel the need to be cold, distant and mean to protect herself? To tell you "I feel pressured and need you to back off" ?
Quote:
Also, to finish the topic about my feelings after her declaration, we say in France that an exageration is a half lie. Now, I know that the lawyer must have swollen the whole thing, but still, she agreed and signed it at the end.
Her lawyers job is to make her case a good one. It's not a pleasant thing to do for her, but probably what she thought was necessary.
Together for 8,5 years. S2 Interest in OM. She left 29.09.12 b/c we couldn't work things out. No signs of OM, not digging. Living in seperate homes, sharing custody.
Hello, Very good points and food for the thought here. I'm glad I found this site.
So, to show detachment, I will keep sending few emails, always short, to the point and without "intro" and "good-byes".
To show her I am a "great guy" is all the difficulty. I don't know how to do that . Any ideas? All my previous attempts were considered as "pursuing". It included : write lengthy nice emails, showing interest in her life/activities, always show up smiley and act super gentle as if in passionate love, making eye contact, always compliment her about her looks/clothes/boots, invite her for coffee/dinner, encourage her before exams, invite them for tea at my place...
So how to detach now without coming across as cold or angry?. I don't want to "retaliate" or be nasty, but show her that I respect her for giving her the space she wants and letting go. It's also a consequence of her decision.
I will also wait for the Court proceeding to happen without trying anything on her. Hopefully, there will be custody changes in my favour as well. In it all, I won't pull dirty things :1. because it is legally irrelevant, and 2.it will give her the reason to keep resisting reconciliation.
To top it all, I am working on being the best dad as possible, even if for the moment my time with S is very limited.
--> For the moment, until you guys tell me, I won't mention making peace or leaving the door open. She knows anyway, but she has to start wondering. Because we don't want my changes to look like only the mean to get her back, which they aren't. Because I am truly interested in my S <-- THIS IS MY PRIORITY NOW. And I have already lost anyway. Not interested in "winning" and show that "I was right".
Hug for you all, you're really the best help I found so far. B.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
Hi Bruce, you are saying all the right things; it just remains to live what you are saying.
You can't show her you're a great guy, you just have to BE a great guy. One who respects her wishes, understands her complaints, and is not trying to manipulate or control her.
It's a problem we all wrestle with here: what if they don't notice, what if it doesn't get them to come back? There's no magic here, it's hard work over much time with no guarantees. In the end though, you get to be a better man. That in itself is good. You get to be a better dad, with a better chance of having time with your son.
And your W will notice that even if you don't contrive ways for her to see it. And it is the ONLY way she might want to rebuild something with you.
Think some more about your definition of a great guy, because the one you described sounded like a cardboard cutout. What you wrote is all about how you interact with her. Learn how to be a great guy without her in the equation, and practice that.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
you have gotten some great people giving you great advice here. Please listen to them.
Originally Posted By: Big Bruce
Hello, Very good points and food for the thought here. I'm glad I found this site. So, to show detachment, I will keep sending few emails, always short, to the point and without "intro" and "good-byes". How about ONLY emailing when it relates to your son & visits? What else is there to discuss, at this point? (The answer really is, NOTHING)
...if she wants to talk about the marriage, LET HER BEGIN but you cannot start another relationship talk. There's no need to discuss anything but your son, b/c you each have lawyers for the rest. She's not stupid. She can figure out that speaking to each other would save money
but so far she's not willing to do that, probably b/c you pursue her each time you two "talk".
So don't go down that road again.
It's like you keep going to a dry well for a drink, b/c you are thirsty.
But for now, THIS "WELL" has no water for you.
To show her I am a "great guy" is all the difficulty. I don't know how to do that . Any ideas? As Gabby and others have said, you simply have to BECOME a great guy. Over time, it will show. I say "simply" not b/c it's easy. But b/c it's not complicated.
THere's no other way other to show her you are a changed man and a great guy,
other than trying to force her, which is the opposite of showing her you are a great guy. This is why these things take TIME...but time is on your side if you're doing the work.
IT's going to be easier for her to notice the changes if they're real and if you've practiced the new behaviors enough. But if you two were to reconcile tonight, there's no way your changes would last.
So use this time to grow/reflect and change, wisely.
All my previous attempts were considered as "pursuing". and they were all pursuit methods designed to get her back. When they did't work fast enough, you got angry, you wanted to "stop being nice", which revealed how superficial the changes were. It included : write lengthy nice emails, showing interest in her life/activities, always show up smiley and act super gentle as if in passionate love, making eye contact, always compliment her about her looks/clothes/boots, invite her for coffee/dinner, encourage her before exams, invite them for tea at my place... most of ^^ this is what normal men do when they love their wives...but some sounded fake and as one person described, "like a cut out" of cardboard.
You're not an advertisement. You should still make eye contact when spoken to, still listen carefully, still express interest in others, and be politely encouraging.
But NOW, b/c you must show detachment w/your wife, you can decrease the interest in her life - UNLESS/UNTIL she invites your feedback
or involves you in the conversation.
Then do what my DB coach would advise, "listen like a lover" and encourage. But not before.
For now--- you have to back off and wait for the 'invitation" to become more interactive with her.
Otherwise your contacts must be ALL and ONLY about your son.
So how to detach now without coming across as cold or angry?. I don't want to "retaliate" or be nasty, but show her that I respect her for giving her the space she wants and letting go. It's also a consequence of her decision. YOu being cold and angry is a choice YOU make, not a "consequence of her decision"....besides you were pretty rough on her before she left.
As for "HOW can You detach without becoming cold and angry"? Well, Are you cold/angry to people you just met? Are you grumpy with People you work with - but are not in love with?
Treat her as you would a colleague you have some warm feelings for, b/c you do have a son together. And again, I'll post about detachment to you.
This time, really take it in.
I will also wait for the Court proceeding to happen without trying anything on her. YES...and I cannot think of anything you can "try on her' that would help your situation now anyhow...
Hopefully, there will be custody changes in my favour as well. It seems as if you'll surely get more time w/him, even if not 50% AND if not half time, that can change SOME, as he ages. In it all, I won't pull dirty things :1. because it is legally irrelevant, and 2.it will give her the reason to keep resisting reconciliation. well ^^^ yes... and also, b/c it's wrong...correct? To top it all, I am working on being the best dad as possible, even if for the moment my time with S is very limited. OUI, (Yes) to ^^^^.
In limited times, in some ways' it's easier to be the great dad b/c you do not have him 24/7. I don't mean that as an insult but I've raised 3 kids and h was gone A LOT and 2 year olds are not easy.
The phrase "terrible twos" exists for a reason. Enjoy your adventures, however limited in time/scope. This will change and improve in time, if you show the court it ought to. The Court WANTS both (fit) parents involved in a child's life.
--> For the moment, until you guys tell me, I won't mention making peace or leaving the door open. She knows anyway, but she has to start wondering. correct to this^^
Because we don't want my changes to look like only the mean to get her back, which they aren't. Because I am truly interested in my S <-- THIS IS MY PRIORITY NOW. And I have already lost anyway. Not interested in "winning" and show that "I was right".
Hug for you all, you're really the best help I found so far. B.
Good luck Bruce. And here, again, is the piece on Detachment. This site has MANY other pieces on "how to detach" and what it means. Read them.
This was originally posted by Peanut. ============ II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship. Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded, and we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals. We can Not control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle. Detachment is not withdrawal.
Detachment is NOT the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is merely the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act.
I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said above. I was in your situation - lawyers and everything - even went through with the divorce. BUT - things with now XW have gotten better. Why? Because at the urging of 25 and other savvy vets here, I really, really, REALLY dove in on ME and tried to just be......well, "better". It's OK to be sad, hurt and angry at times....comes with the territory. However, learn to control your emotions and actions or they will control you.
Bruce, you have to prepare yourself to settle in for the long haul. There is no silver bullet here - I have been on the path that you are on and right now your best friends are time, patience, introspection and forgiveness. Make the most of all of them, friend - it is your path to being.....well, "better".
Bonsoir everyone, One more question : after I've had my son for myself for two hours, should I tell her how it went, what we did or what S ate? Or should I write that in an email right after the visit? Or not say anything at all, to keep the secrecy between father and S, and make her wonder?
I'm asking because yesterday when I brought S back after my unsupervised time with him, I rang her doorbell, she opened the door, took him, barely asked if everything was ok to which I said yes, said bye and almost closed the door on my nose.
--> Maybe I've shown distance and withdrawal instead of "detachment" and that's why she responding this way?
Is this normal, beneficial or am I doing something wrong here?
As for the rest of the advice you gave me, I think I understand and am working on it (e.g. being a good dad, being a great guy without trying to show her, stop pursuing like a madman).
Thanks again and Bonne nuit, Bruce
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
