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And btw, my "go right ahead" wasn't a challenge. It was relief, to be able to hand off the baton, to let someone else speak for me.

I actually don't enjoy this. I like puzzles that have a solution, not circular conversations.

Yes, H will definitely tell you that he wants to improve the M. He's going to counseling right now because of an ultimatum I gave him a little while back. I don't pursue what he discusses with his counselor, but occasionally he offers. Several weeks ago, he explained to me that he had worked with his counselor to put in a place a boundary limiting how much/how often we talk. More specifically, if we weren't done at 15 minutes, he could just walk away. I know that discussions make him incredibly uncomfortable, even within the first 30 seconds. I was reading up on this at the same time and learned that it's a common trait for men, that there are physical changes that take place in them, that it causes intense fear in them. I realize this doesn't apply to all men, but it definitely applies to H. I understand it and empathize with it to the best of my ability, considering I just can't relate personally. Conversation is my #2 love language.

In response, I have not had one conversation with him since. His entire attitude has changed. He has complemented me a hundred times on how wonderful I've been. He wants to touch, to invite me to do things with him, to have sex. None of these are things I want right now, nor are these "changes" in the format of what our R has always been. He has merely reverted back to what he used to be. But I've continued to not have conversations with him nonetheless. I don't expect that to change anytime soon, because I really don't desire to have a conversation with him anyway, knowing he's timing me, so we both win. This will very much become a habit for me.

The problem is, I don't believe eliminating conversation does anything to improve our M. But it is what H wanted, and he seems very happy with it.

And according to him, my letting him know what I want from him qualifies as "conversation."

So now what?

First, stop the sarcasm. This may be part of your issues or dynamics in both your M's. Maybe it feels like good intellectual sport but it is not productive and is passive-aggressive. PA is very destructive as I learned in my M. We never really fought but did that. Sarcasm is anger's bitter cousin.
Second, be constructive. CV you do vent about H and that is good as that is what we need to do but do look at the other side of the coin. KD, don't poke with a stick. We are all hurting and confused. CV, you, me and all on this board. It is not an intellectual battle we should be having but rather battle with our emotions and reason to get where we need. Ideally in the end a happy life and self and R in our M's. be blunt with comments and criticisms in a productive kind way. Not passive-aggressive sarcasm.

I wasn't being sarcastic. If I came across that way, I'd like to know how/when.

I like your suggestions.

That post is clear. Definitely that trait of time limits and fear of discussion as that is my W to a tee. Always has been. That is why she avoids me and discussion with the kids when they are hurting. Literally walks away from a 10 year old.
He likes touch and sex and you like conversation. I think there is an opening for compromise there. Time the conversation and the sex. Okay, now I am being sarcastic. Really though! Give a little to get a little. MWD talks about solutions and not dragging out past problems. That is what he is afraid of talking about. Try some kiss and make-up. You may be surprised. Men are that simple.

I had considered the comparison, and what it would do to one's psyche to know that their partner had pursued in counseling a way to limit their investment in sex, and would be timing it and walking away at 15 minutes. I can imagine it would make one feel devalued and less than amorous, like it does for me to want to have any conversation with my H. I'd much rather go to Starbucks and chat up the person next to me. They actually seem to enjoy it. I'm sorry your W is like that. I don't know how to have an intimate R with someone that won't talk.

Kiss and make-up.... are you suggesting sex?

As for the withholding, I completely understand where your coming from CV.
At the same time I think most men don't understand that, they see it as you not finding him attractive, that you don't want him. I don't think a lot of men really understand the emotional side that women do. Have you tried to explain your reasons to him?

I'm the same as you with things like toenails etc (One of the reasons H left me. LOL) I do paint my toes but i don't redo them before they start to fade. If I go a few days with imperfect toe nails, than so be it.
You don't care much about it but what if your H did?

The same goes for his office, yes I agree used tissues laying around is just gross but it clearly doesn't bother him! He needs to want to make changes for him.

My H used to make comments here and there about my weight. Sure I have weight I can loose but I'm not huge. It doesn't bother me that much because I'm comftable. If I was huge than yeah, I'd accept what H said but I didn't see it should be a problem for him. He put on weight and it never bothered me.
Now wearing a costume for six days, I'm motivated to try to loose some.
I did feel a little self conscious, so it's motivation for me.

I tried CV, I really tried so hard to make my marriage work. I put up with a lot. Constant lying, being dropped in a seconds notice, if someone else wanted H to do something. Feeling like he only wanted me for s@x. Verbal abuse and anger.
I realize now, there was nothing I could have done. He was never going to change, not for me at least.

Trying to change someone is never going to work,.,, He will only change,., if he decides to,.. By himself.

Keep working on you.

Yes, I've tried to talk to him, but that isn't received well because it's conversation.

That's the thing, SS, I can totally see where your H treated you in a manner that I would find totally unacceptable. It's just not supposed to be that way. If anyone was told upfront that that was how their M was going to be, they would say, "No, thanks!" and run away. This whole concept of changing the M by changing you, when you're dealing with things like lying and verbal abuse, is something I simply don't understand. I understand detaching. I understand GAL'g. But I don't understand what you could possibly have changed that would have resulted in your H not lying. Nor would I personally want to change in a manner that would result in my finding lying in a M acceptable behavior.

FM, I do respect and understand your concern regarding the sarcasm and poking.

CV, I want to parse your post #2312782. For example:

instead of "Yes, H will definitely tell you that he wants to improve the M", it can be simplified as "H states he wants to improve the M".

Here goes:

+ H states he wants to improve the M
+ H is going to counselling
+ I do not ask about his counselling
+ H sometimes offers information about counselling
+ H wants conversations limited to 15 minutes
+ H appears to have problems with long conversations
+ I understand and empathize
+ I like long conversations
+ I have not had conversations with H since
+ H appears to have changed
+ H compliments me
+ H wants to touch
+ H wants to do things together
+ H wants to have sex
+ I do not want touch
+ I do not want to do things together
+ I do not want sex
+ H stopped this new behaviour
+ I continue to not have conversations
+ we both win

Yes. Yes I am. Start the intimacy. The 5LL's is good. Give and yee shall receive. I am not saying this because I am a man. I am saying this to start the intimacy ball rolling. My W wanted the sex and I had no idea. She never expressed it...at least not clearly enough for me pea brain. So I gave her as much sex as she wanted then it turned into her wanting to finally talk. As backwards as that sounds. It started to work for months.The only thing she would not deal with was the 5 LL's. she admits to that. We had the other complications stall it though, I pushed to hard and quick.