I haven't read enough to know and I apologize. But, do you find that your "refusal" to work on your marriage is borne from a feeling inside that you won't change anything anyway? That your H would not actually reciprocate in kind? And that end might hurt more?
Also, go back and reexamine your motives for staying. I say this with a loving heart as I am in the same boat as you. H moved back home but nothing moved forward. In fact, from my end, they've deteriorated. I am contemplating leaving. My H has a serious drinking issue and is heading for a crash. I have used that as an excuse for staying for a long time. It took another crisis for me to understand that wasn't quite the truth. I do love my H. I have consistently made the choice to do nothing but stick close by. I struggle ENORMOUSLY. I do this because in my own way there was hope in my heart. Problem is? I can't fix his problem.
You clearly are struggling. And I'm happy to see you are able to maintain a sense of "normalcy" in your life. However, for me? Everything I worked to change sort of gotten eaten up by grief of loneliness and instability. I worry that's where you could be headed. I am no expert as I have only conducted a study of exactly one person. But I just don't think it's real healthy to stay in limbo like this and I do think it will catch up with you eventually. Again, I'm not preaching or judging. I've done nothing different than you have. I probably handled it worse, in fact. Just trying to lend an ear and try to talk this through with you.
LIS, I'm sooo glad you came to visit! You were a big inspiration for starting this thread, though I'm afraid it has taken on a life of it's own, rather off the original topic I think. I wish you had your own thread, currently. I would love to follow through your thought processes and interactions with your H. I think I could relate better.
I'm sorry you have your H's drinking problem to deal with. I wouldn't know what to do with that. I hope you're taking advantage of some of the support services like alanon. I don't have anything like that to deal with, thankfully, just overall selfishness on H's part. Our M has always been all about him. And when I make something about me, H just doesn't participate. So at least in this I can relate to your sitch: When the M problem is not getting something you want, or getting something you don't want, what do YOU do?
I would say the biggest issue I have with "working on my M" is that I don't know what that would look like in the context of a WAS. I don't want to dress in sexy nighties, because that would make H want to have sex and I don't want to right now. I don't want to spend more time with him doing his activities, because I've BTDT, and it just takes away from my time for my interests, which he doesn't participate in. Basically, I don't want to do anything to facilitate his selfishness.
The consistent message I've been getting is that I can't change HIM. So I'm not trying. I'm just changing me. And I have changed a bunch of things that make for a happier me. But it does not make for a healthier M. Most LBS's have a list of 180's they can work on. I don't have that. In fact, H was quite happy when it was all about him. The one with the list of M complaints was me.
So I'm willing to do some things. But like you experienced, I'm very aware of the risk of falling back into what I once had and so I'm very protective of that. I don't want to lose what I've gained personally. I don't know what working on my M would look like at this point. Oh, and talking about it with H is not an option -- that is one thing he insisted on.
Awwww, thanks CV. I'm still highly emotional so I don't think I'm prepared for all the tough love I'd get from my own thread yet.
You can't imagine life with him. I sooooooooo get that. The thought of being touched made me sick. There was a time before he came back that I would go full on meltdown whenever he was around. Although, that should have really really triggered in me that I wasn't as detached as I thought.
Take your son out of this sitch for a second (and I know I'm asking the near impossible but try). What would life be like if you left? What could you imagine for yourself then? I am NOT telling you to leave. I am just trying to understand. See, I was so focused on how I couldn't make it work with my H and how hard it was to leave that I couldn't see beyond my own nose. I never truly tried to imagine what it would be like if I left. So tell me what that looks like.
I want you to understand CV that I am on your side. Completely. So I am not challenging you so much as really trying to understand. It's selfish in a way because I guess I'm trying to understand me in the process. When you say you have nothing to work on for the sake of the marriage, I will accept that. But what do you need to work on that allowed a man in your life who was selfish? He wants you to stay but is ok being in another room. Sounds like his rules again. I'm just really not clear what you are getting out of this arrangement. So what continues to allow you to bend to his rules? And please, please, please understand I've done the same thing and my H's personality is the same as yours. But while you are out and doing your thing, you are still sacrificing yourself by living in limbo. And I don't think it's ok or you're happy or you wouldn't be here.
At the end of the day, CV, I made a lot of excuses. My H's drinking problem is bad. And I used that as an excuse to stay so he doesn't kill himself. But the truth is? When I looked real hard? I was holding onto hope of something that just cannot be right now or cannot be with the path we're on. I was almost happy I wasn't one of those poor LBS's who didn't get another chance. Funny thing is? Each of those LBS's in my group are moving on and finding happiness again while I continue to insist upon my limbo. Not good. I'm rambling but I hope that made a little sense.
Oh one more thing, CV... I've changed gears a little bit. It's a bit of a misnomer to say that we are a WAS, I think. Given our H's complete lack of interest in resolving much of anything while they are living in their fantasy worlds... well, doesn't that STILL make us a LBS in a way? I mean it looks a little different than the typical LBS sitch but they still invest nothing in us or the M. So isn't it the same thing? And honestly by staying and by catering to their "rules," aren't we in our own way pursuing? Allowing them "cake-eating" at least in the sense that we have provided them comfort so they need not make any other decision? I mean neither of our H's are on this board. They aren't all that distressed. Why would my H be? I pay the bills, clean the house, shop, cook the meals, take care of the nonsense, bring in money. What a perfect arrangement for him. Isn't that what you are telling me your H is doing? Food for thought... something I've been thinking about the last day.
LOL! Yes, there is definitely some tough love tossed around here. But it works for me. I like things direct. I'm on the downward slide of life and would prefer to not waste time trying to figure out what someone is trying to say because they've buffered it with so much BS it gets lost in the translation. But I definitely get where you're coming from.
If S12 wasn't in the picture, I would be gone. I would move into a small place, probably a condo, with minimal furnishings, minimal upkeep. I don't think I would want a roommate (no point trading one for another, right?) I don't envision a man in my life either. If so, it would be strictly dating -- no M, no living together. I would go back to working full-time, but it would be outside of the house again, hopefully where I got to do a lot of travel. I would sign up for group trips, like with the ski club and biking club. I would commit to some volunteer groups and other activities, because my time and money would be my own. I would have a special area just for reading, probably outside on the patio or deck, with a few pots of flowers and maybe a little water fountain, though I would prefer it be away from home so it was someone else's responsibility to maintain. I could go on. I've thought about this a lot. It's my plan for after S12 is off on his own. But does that answer your question?
I had a number of issues that attracted the two of us. First, I was a rescuer. (I think he's a narcissist, so it's a perfect combo.) He was a single man struggling with taking care of 4 children half-time. He was struggling financially and organizationally, cooking, cleaning, etc. All areas where I could step in and be helpful! I thought he would be grateful and reciprocate. You know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours? Fooled me! Our early years were filled with my giving everything and getting nothing in return. I learned resentment for my role as his W, for being in his life. Though the problems started pretty early on, I simply attributed it to the need for both of us to learn how to be M'd to each other, and that it would take a little time to adjust. And also to the inherent complexities of a blended family. When issues would occur, H always claimed "stupidity," seemed contrite and promised to never do it again. I believed him. I was too trusting. When he would do something again, it wouldn't be exactly like the previous incident, and he claimed he simply didn't connect the dots between the two, claiming stupidity again. How do you hate someone for being intellectually incapable? Well I've since witnessed enough to recognize that his stupidity is very selective. But by the time I got there, S12 was already in the picture. And I also witnessed enough with H's ex that I just don't care to go there while S12 is still a minor. In any case, I've spent a lot of time working on changing myself, and I have made much progress in those initial problem areas.
At this point, while S12 IS still in the picture, I wouldn't change much of my personal life. I'm working little now, so H is responsible for the finances for a change. I get to be home for S12 and finish my degree. I've been able to focus on some of my own interests, though my schedule is still driven by much of S12's activities. And I don't get to go on group trips because they're generally primarily singles, and I'm not. Plus I'd rather do things with S12 right now. He's all for biking, skiing, etc. It's just that it's twice as expensive with him, and he has to go to school, and he has other activities, etc. so that cuts into the plans a bit.
I completely get the LBS vs. WAS debate. I've had people take issue with it before. I guess I just stick with the WAS label because H claims wholeheartedly that he wants to remain M'd. He'll tell you he would do anything, promises the world. I suspect you get some of that with your H's drinking. I just don't believe it anymore. All talk and no action. And since I'm pretty much done trying and looking toward my future without him, I figure that makes me the WAS, even if it's in the future. Also, you are definitely doing more in your sitch than I am. Most of what I do, I do because of S12, like cooking and cleaning. H does his own laundry, cooks for himself if S12 isn't here, and he's paying the bills now (I did previously.)
I'm curious, what is your reason for staying? Or do you know?
That was an interesting response, CV. Was there sarcasm? Yes. Did the sarcasm affect your response? Would you have responded differently if there was no sarcasm?
I have no doubt you are fearless when it comes to protecting that which is important to you.
Are you happy now where you are? Why did you come here? What are you hoping to gain while being here? I mean it seems like you have a game plan and a path you are mostly content with, but yet you are here? Why do you think? And pleeeassseee don't go
I am NOT happy. Why do I stay? You're gonna need a ticker to keep up on my responses (excuses) to that. I think I thought I could fix it. I could cure his alcoholism and things would just go back to the way they were because I love him. And when things go back to the way they were then I'll fall in love with him again. Then we will move to a small island, buy a bar and serve margaritas. Ok, I made the last part up but I'm starting to realize my stay in fantasyland. LOL. It sounds funny when I say it, but at this point, I'm down to raw emotions.
lis, I'm not here to answer for CV, but I do want to say that CV is close to textbook WAS.
During her time here, I can not remember a single time CV mentioned that she had anything to do with the downfall of her M. It has all been pushed on her H.
The most recent is an interesting example she uses. This is where CV is avoiding, and a large amount appears to be covert. She indicates that she was a rescuer.
What is important in that statement is not that she wants to stop rescuing her H. Rather, she then suggested he was narcissistic and suggested that he took advantage of her rescuer tendency without getting anything in return. That is covert blame.
FloydMan, just so you know, the sarcasm was part of the posts intentionally. While it came across as rude and crass, the intention was to see the resultant response.
CV indicates that she is fearless and not avoidant, yet in most of what she responds, she indicates what she does not want (moving away from) as opposed to what she wants (moving towards). Her responses are also laced with differences vs sameness.
Just those two things indicate that her natural tendency is to avoid. And that is OK. We all have our tendencies. When she hits something that is painful, she is fierce, ferocious, fearless, quite likely because she'd rather attack then deal with the fear. It chases the scary stuff away. As she did when she spoke only to portions of my posts (at her choosing), avoiding the rest and then using very sophisticated language to attempt to lock me out of further dialogue around it.
Have I profiled her? Yes. And I am doing it with complete respect because I believe in her and I believer that she can help make her M better.
She does not want to make her M better.
So I think that your question is very valid, lis. Why is CV here? I think she's here because she is getting validation that her M truly is bad, that her H is not stepping up and changing, that she is suffering, and we are empathizing with her.
LOL! Love the island analogy. Can I be your margarita taster?
I've gotten happy because I've worked on some things in me. I wasn't there when I first came here. That doesn't mean I've gotten happy in my M though. Part of my getting happy has been letting go of the dream of having a happy M with H. Accuray has posted a nice description of what a healthy M should look like. I realize I will most likely never have that with H. I didn't let go of that without a lot of kicking and screaming though, but years of the sameole-sameole has a way of convincing you. But I also wouldn't turn it down even still if it was handed to me on a silver platter.
I would say I would like what everyone else here wants - a happy M with the person I've already invested so many years into. I think the thing that keeps me asking the question here is that some people seem to think I'm missing something in the reconciliation department. I certainly don't want to throw in the towel if there's something I can do, but what that is seems to be elusive to me. People like KD make statements like, "Deal with a bit of pain right now, and put your M back on track, so that the future of doom and gloom portrayed above, does not happen," yet if I ask point blank what that is, I don't get an answer. It's something that I've grown immensely tired of, quite frankly. Just like the proverbial "snipe hunting" trick we played as kids, I'm not sure I'm not the victim of a some giant scam.
The other aspect of it is that you hear repeatedly that M is hard. You hear that it's not going to be perfect. Heck, even your M vows included a contingency for the "for worse" aspect of M. So it makes me question if I simply have a warped perspective on what M is supposed to be, and that I actually have a really good one that I would be throwing out, only to regret it after it was too late. I mean I've never been M'd before, how do I know? We all hear horror stories of other M's and think, "Gee, mine isn't as bad as that!" But how low do we have to set the bar in order to call our M "good" by comparison? And does it matter if it's good by someone else's definition if it doesn't meet my needs?
I'm not sure it's much different than why we stay at a job far longer than we should. Creatures of habit? Some insignificant aspect that makes it worthwhile? A sense of commitment? The unknown of whether the next job will be better or possibly even worse? The effort of the process required to get from one job to the next? The occasional good day that makes you question your prior experiences? I suspect the reasons are many, and vary from person to person. The answers are the things that are rare.
I get your struggle, I really do. If I hadn't struggled with these things, I would have gotten out before the end of my second year. I'm not sure how I can help you.
Sorry to creep in on your thread here, CV. In the event that you are preparing a response to my last post.
Again, your post above follows the same pattern as when you first came here. The same patterns of avoiding and placing blame on your H and others here who are trying to help you, but not giving you what you want.
Now understand, I don't have to tell you that you have grown from this. You know you have.
Still, you would take the M back if it was handed to you on a silver platter and you are wanting answers from the likes of me and AJ and others who have posted on your thread, without doing the work.
And you ask, "but what work, I've asked that before and got no answer", and so the circular conversation that is frustrating you.
When you DO the work, you are expecting immediate results and when they are not apparent, you stop. These things must become habits in you. Not the GAL stuff, you are good at that. It is time to stop avoiding what hurts.
And what hurts is, you are unwilling to empathize with your H. That is your resentment. You need to stop resenting your H for your horrible M.
When your changes TOWARDS building a better M with your H become habit in you, your H's bad habits can not continue. Eventually, his habits will stop... and he will change...
