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WAS brain blurb....

I'm struggling with not wanting to do anything with H, because I fear he'll ruin it for me. I'm afraid it will become all about him again, even if it was my idea in the first place. I feel very protective of me/mine and consider H a high risk to "my world." That's HIS contribution to the problem.

At the same time, I have my contribution to the problem as well. I own my past issue of over-giving and over-extending myself on his behalf. I definitely don't want to go there again, but I need to work on a middle ground.

These thoughts are manifesting in my distancing from H and "hiding" my interests. For example, I want to start a cardio workout program tomorrow, but I'm looking at when I can do it that H is not around because I think he'd want to join me. I don't have a desire for him to join me, but I'm trying to adjust my automatic defense mechanism and ask, realistically, what can he do to mess it up for me?

Plus, if I care for H, which I believe I do (and which is actually driving the re-thinking,) I should want to encourage him to do it, even if and maybe especially if that means he'll follow my lead.

So I'm going to put together my plan without purposely avoiding H's presence. If he joins me, I'm going to make absolutely sure that I stay on track with my plan and not let him distract me. If I own that responsibility, then I can't blame him later on. It will be MY fault, not his.

And then hope for the best. For both of us.

Hi CV,
Happy New Year!

I'm working on getting through this thread - it's pretty dense, but as I read, I keep thinking about how much I sympathize with you. And I am the LBS, technically. But I feel like the WAS much of the time. So much of what you're saying about your H rings true for me - the feeling of his messy office being a sign of disrespect towards you, for example. I get that. I'm sure he doesn't mean it like that, but I get it.

My big take away is this: your H is not going to change his habits. He's not going to be neat and tidy, he's not going to be less lazy, he's not going to be less obnoxious. This is the man you married.

The key now, for you, is to figure out how to deal with that.

I recently finished a Byron Katie book - "I Need Your Love - Is that True?" Her work centers on changing thoughts which leads to changing feelings. She has another book called "Loving What Is." I think something like that might help you. It's focused on accepting reality as it is and changing thought patterns. Could you imagine loving your H's messy office because it's part of the man you love? I can't either, but that's what her work is trying to do. Her work would have you say this:

H is disrespecting me because he can't clean up his office.

Then you ask 4 questions:
- Is that true?
- How can I know it's absolutely true? (if so)
- How do I react when I hold that thought as true?
- What would my life be like if I let go of that thought?

Then - you turn it around - part of this I don't really get, but it would go something like:
- H is disrespecting H because he can't clean up his office.
- I am disrespecting H by judging his messy office.
- I am disrespecting me by focusing on H's messy office.

Another piece of advice: my therapist told me to make 2 lists for my relationships: one is the "non-negotiables" and the other is the "nice to haves". If there's anything in your M on the non-negotiable list (in my case, emotional abuse), then you've got some hard decisions to make. If not, maybe there's a way to live with what you've got.

I really do feel for you CV. That feeling of banging your head against a wall isn't fun. But I do ask myself frequently why you haven't left yet.

I wonder if your H sees you as "selfish"? Have you always felt this way? This certainly is an issue in my M, according to H.

Not to take away from Regretful's post. That was a very wise post and very helpful in all aspects of life.

But to directly answer your question, CV, I didn't stop changing. As with most things, it's far more complicated. The dynamic was that I was too harsh on the kids. She was too protective of my son (not my daughter oddly enough). That started when he was first born. To the point of being exclusive of reality. But that wasn't the issue; that was something we fought about and that she didn't like. In the end, that was the only thing.

In her case, she overloaded while in grad school (dentist) and began to pull away. I was taking care of the kids, the house, and working. As she pulled further away, I noticed, but gave her room. She was stressed. As time went on, she started exercising (something I asked her to do for years and she didn't; I wasn't going to leave her over it though ). She started talking about other men after sex, dressing younger, partying, being out all the time. It exploded shortly after her nephew killed himself (she barely knew him - he was on the other coast) and I approached her about spending more time with the kids. I got the speech. She went numb. Said it was her not me. Later she got rageful (fun Christmas to say the least) and started cheating on me. Then started blaming me for all kinds of things. Started changing her personality, then moved out (on Mother's day - blaming me for the way I was with the kids but leaving them with me.) She still tries to accuse me of things.

Along the way, with the help of a counselor, I finally figured out the dynamic of why I was rough with the kids. By rough I mean I was protective of her and harsher than is my personality or the kind of person I want to be. What was happening is that she was creating a situation to put them between us, but didn't want to spend time with them. I couldn't quite figure it out because I didn't want to believe what she was doing. She was creating the dynamic and I was reacting to it in a negative way. Later it became more apparent when she offered me sex if I would divorce her and she left the kids with me so she could party more. She wanted out, but didn't feel she could justify that to herself, her friends or her family.

She solved the problem by "purging" her friends and lying to her family. I still get on famously with her family, so I've had to hear some of that.

I never stopped working on me or the things she had asked for. The things that were changes I needed to make for me, I made. I still do make changes for me.

I don't listen to her any longer. She is reconnecting with the kids, but not in a very healthy way. She is angry and they know it. My D doesn't talk to me. I don't know why, but at one point like her mom, she wished I would end up alone (anger).

I do not stop working on me, for me and for my kids, CV. I realize how much healthier it is without her. I wish she would just go away and leave me alone. Or at least co-parent. I've tried to accommodate for that end many times. She is not able to do that and chooses instead to express anger and unhappiness. Her new husband (the OM) can have that. I wish her the best.

Perspective - While I was figuring this all out, I once stopped on my way into work and started laughing hysterically when it dawned on me - I was so close to perfect in her eyes, with one flaw (my reaction to her manipulations), that it took her a very long time to come up with a story she could use to help her "justify" leaving. Sad, but funny too. She tried for more to use against me. She tried to accuse me of cheating on her, of being a pu***y (for letting her go without a huge fight), she tried to get her boyfriends to beat me up, she even tried to get me to hit her. I had already figured out too much of what she was doing by then.

I'm guessing from her perspective it wasn't funny. It was critical that I not be "perfect". She needed something to help her justify her actions and she twisted things and lied to fill in the gaps.

I think in the end, she needed out of that life but didn't want to accept it was her. Don't get me wrong, she went to doctors and tried to find a reason for her unhappiness. Several. She didn't like counselors, but went a few times. She didn't like AD's, but did well with them until she stopped.

I have not stopped changing CV, nor have I stopped working on me and loving my kids. I always have and always will and I see the value in it. I see the detriment of negative thinking cycles. I see the value in positive thinking. I see the value in always adapting and improving ourselves. Regardless of the world around us and what's going on at the time.

I have had to adapt to her still CV. She has tried very hard to exclude me from her new "family" she is trying to create with OM. My son and I are very close but she tried to take them from me. I've tried very very hard to get the kids to reconnect with her. I tried very hard to let her rants, threats and BS go by the wayside. I've tried to co-parent with her. But I keep adapting because that's not what she is capable of doing.

Always life. Always change. Always strive for positive change. I can't look at myself in the mirror and like the man I see if I do otherwise.

Peace,
AJ

CV, I wanted to point you to a post I made on another thread. I think it is relevant to you, specifically to the ted talk video linked in it:

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311215#Post2311215

I read AJ's post above and a few things popped out at me.

First, both AJ and myself have labelled our spouses as MLC.

Having said that, there are common behaviours of a MLCer, a WAS, AND a LBS. They happen during the disconnect. These are the reasons, justifications, rationalizations, etc that we use to resolve Cognitive Dissonance.

AJ's description of his W's need to prove he was not perfect has an important context. It is not that AJ is suggesting he is perfect. Rather, it is that he believes his wife truly did believe he was perfect, for what ever reason she originally wanted to believe that.

Also, he explains how she went about to work through that. It appears that it all happened in a short period of time, but by my guess (I don't quite know his back story enough) it happened over a one or two year period.

I wouldn't describe my W's behaviour in quite so dramatic a way, and yet... she too spent a lot of time during and prior to BD, attempting to prove me wrong. I won't say I was right all the time. I'm very happy to hear alternative perspectives. Yet, she even had the kids convinced that I always had to be right.

So not true. In the end, I found myself defending that so much (proving that I needed to be right), that I really believed that I was going crazy and there was something wrong with me.

Anyhow, the point is, there is no right or wrong. No one is infalable. I have no doubt your H could come up with a laundry list on you, just as you have on him.

Now... am I trying to be right saying the above? Am I trying to make you wrong?

What's your perspective?

Quick update to my blurb: yesterday, H and I worked out together. Today we didn't. So evidence proves that I CAN do it with him, but I enjoy it more without him.

RLA, I'm going to look into those books you've mentioned. It would be a bit of a change from what I usually read. I'm not sure disrespect is the word I would use for H's behavior, though. I interpret it more as his "uncaring for me." Like playing his music loudly. I don't think he's being disrespectful, since he just likes it that way and does the same thing when I'm not around. But it demonstrates not caring for me by continuing to play it loudly when I'm present, even when I point it out for him that it's uncomfortable for me. The thing is, he isn't being cruel in response, like telling me to f-off if I don't like it. Instead, he smiles and tells me who the artist is and points out the instrument playing in the background, etc, basically trying to convince me that I really do enjoy it playing loudly. But it physically hurts my ears, so I leave. It all boils down to H creating a R where I simply don't enjoy him.

I've done the list thing before. I'm not sure what would still fall on the non-negotiable list anymore. There used to be several things years ago, but I've already negotiated through them all, including an EA. The only one that used to be on it that I haven't had to actually deal with is a PA with another woman, at least I'm not aware of it if he has. To that, now, I'm not sure if I would care anymore in light of everything else. I might actually feel relieved that the pressure for sex is off me. Betrayal comes in many forms, not just a PA.

No, it's a learned response. I used to be very generous and giving in our M. And H used to be very selfish. I've changed, he hasn't. H would confirm this.

At this point, I'm still M'd because I still believe it's the best for S12. I just thought if I'm going to be here anyway for the next 5+ years, then it might be worth trying to improve it in the meantime.

AJ, it sounds like you really had some things to deal with. I was just confused because you say we all change, we all have to change, continuously, but then you stated you put a stop to it because your W kept asking you to change.

If you were here today in the midst of your problems with your W, I'm not sure how I would apply your own advice to you, regarding perspective and change, etc.

KD, I checked out the post and the video. I can't answer what you're trying to do, that's internal to you. My perspective is that short of God's own judgment, there is no right or wrong, only opinion and perspective. Even if I agree with you, it doesn't make you right, it only means we have the same opinion.

I didn't put a stop to changing, CV. I put a stop to changing for her "whims". I was authentic the entire time because I wanted to do things to please my mate. But when I realized her happiness wasn't something I could be responsible for, I changed for me and no longer for her. Until then I danced like a puppet (btw, she did notice the changes. Fought very hard to not allow them as well. Fast forward several years, she still is hyper-aware of what I do or don't do, even though we don't talk. She isn't "done" processing yet to her satisfaction, CV. Not sure her new husband is going to be thrilled with that later on...)

We don't stop changing until we...well, stop changing. Coincidentally, we stop breathing at the same time we stop changing making it a one-way street


Peace,
AJ

Well, AJ, I just wish you were talking to my H instead of me. I don't have a problem with change, I would even say I like it in most things. Positive changes reward with positive results. H does not like change, however. Imagine in your most annoying, whiny voice saying, "But change is h-a-r-d....!"