KD, I really don't have a need to be right. I have a need to possess what is *mine*. But you ask me that question a lot. I'm not sure how to talk with you about this sort of thing without you interpreting it like that. You asked me "Why do you feel a need to be RIGHT about it?" I responded that I didn't understand the need for the discussion, placing the word "wrong" in quotes because I don't even know how to discuss this in terms of "right" and "wrong." It's my opinion, my perception as you put it. How can an opinion be right or wrong? Can we just agree that you're entitled to your opinion/perception and I'm entitled to mine, without either of us being right or wrong?
And even if what you're saying was absolutely valid, I'm not making the leap from needing to be right to needing to be appreciated.
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You are being wronged by your H and are justified to be doing what you are doing.
How am I being wronged by my H? He plays his music loudly because he likes it. He's not doing anything wrong and I'm not being wronged, I don't take it personally. But it physically hurts my ears and I leave. There is no justification required for that. I'm neither right nor wrong in doing so, but I am entitled to do so.
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It comes out as you trying to make your H change to suit you, before you will change to suit the M that you want.
I think you and I have hit this wall before. I'd love some specifics here to your observation. In the issue above, for example. If in fact I were willing to "change to suit the M that I want" in regards to H playing his music loudly, what would it look like?
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What is unfortunate is, those changes weren't a habit. They were a tactic. That they were not working for you, you decided you would not do them. Not because it made your M worse, but because your H appeared more happy and wanted to be more with you, which you are finding fault in, so you stopped.
I'm afraid I didn't follow this at all. I'll agree it wasn't a habit, because I didn't do it long enough to become a habit. And it certainly wasn't a tactic on my part, it was a challenge by you. But other than that?
I agree I stopped doing it because it wasn't working for me. I've done the one-sided M and I'm not interested in doing that again. If H had shown some sign of reciprocation of what *I* wanted instead of pursuing more of what *he* wanted, then I would have continued and even ramped it up. Knightyme just illustrated this with "I thought my M was fine for months before the bomb." It was fine for him, but she was packing her bags. For some reason, there are a lot of one-sided M's that don't survive. I wonder why?
I am pleasant with my H, pretty much all the time, especially now that we're not discussing any issues. It's very superficial, like being pleasant to the cashier at the grocery store. Superficial, not artificial. As long as I'm not working on any deeper connection, we're fine. And what I've read recently about men and connection is that they're pretty much content with a R just sitting silently in a room watching the ballgame. Again, not *all* men, but definitely H. So I'm not really sure what more he would want from the R besides the bedroom and for me to follow him around *silently* like a dog while he pursued his own interests. BTDT, not really interested. You seem to see it as something else.
Because you didn't fix your own problems. You'll likely just a) destroy your child's self-esteem and b) carry the issues with you into the next R. That's life. Fix it now or fix it later.
AJ, this doesn't answer why the LBS thinks D is such a bad thing. I agree the kids are part of it, but certainly not all of it, and not necessarily even the primary reason.
It doesn't? To me, making that kind of choice and NOT fixing yourself is a bad thing. If you make that choice as KD did, AND do it for you and in the process fix yourself, I find that admirable and the best of all outcomes.
In theory, I'm on both sides of that, CV. My ex wouldn't have done well to stay. She couldn't handle it. I know, I watched as she went numb (depression) and made choices to try and fix herself. She blamed me for everything, and I mean everything going back to the first date. She still blames me for things that she does and doesn't like it when it's done to her like not sharing information about the kids. She explicitly says she doesn't want to co-parent, yet gets angry if I don't volunteer information.
Does that sound like a healthy person to you? Somebody who fixed themselves? Or somebody who just changed the scenery? Admittedly, she has other issues, but regardless she didn't fix herself. Not really fair to the man she ran off (that's his problem now). Not really fair to her either. She traded one husband for another in hopes of "solving" the issue.
I've seen many like that.
When all is said and done, I think (as an LBS in this case) that D is a bad thing because it treats a symptom but doesn't address the issue. It complicates things but the original issue is still there waiting to be dealt with. I know she suffers with her choice and never thought she would. I know she thought that she was doing the "right" thing by leaving. Since "everything" was my fault and would "never" change, she "had" to do it because she couldn't do "it" any longer (whatever that means to her.)
I rarely see divorce as an answer to the real problem. I rarely see it as anything other than change with a lot of avoidable destruction in most cases. I have seen it as a real answer and the only answer. Abuse is a case I have no tolerance for and understand the need to change that dynamic. But that's not what we're discussing.
Does that more directly answer your question as to why one LBS sees D as not the answer to the problem in most cases?
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
But see KD, you're doing the same thing, focusing on your WAS in the D. I wasn't asking why the LBS doesn't see the D as the solution for the WAS. I was wondering why the LBS doesn't see the D as a solution for the LBS. M is work. It takes sacrifice. If the LBS wasn't willing to do for the M what the WAS wanted, they were probably living with someone that was nagging and unhappy most of the time anyway. I would think a D would be a "gift" to the LBS. Then they would be able to continue as they were and not have to change anything about themself. My H could continue all of his chosen habits without having to hear about it from me anymore, and could avoid the effort of changing his lifestyle which seems to be so difficult for him. This is his second M. It's not like he doesn't know the gig. If D was all that bad the first time, you'd think he'd take it more seriously the second time around. Perhaps that contributes largely to my rationale that it's not such a big deal for the LBS.
Subguy, I think this is where I have an odd perspective on the failure of M, perhaps. It sounds to me like your W was content with who/what she was. Rather than continuing to expect you to change to accommodate what she needed, she opted to leave you as you are and release you (aka D.) Afterall, problems are really only problems from the outside looking in. It is very possible that your W reflected on herself and didn't see anything she needed to change, but could see a ton of things that she didn't like to deal with in regards to you. You, on the other hand, perhaps saw nothing wrong with your actions and could see a slew of things that she did that you took issue with. Who's to say which is right? Neither of you were happy with each other. Why is D such a bad thing in that case?
It's the same thing with my H's office. He doesn't have a problem with it. I do. Who's right? It really doesn't matter, and can't be proven one way or the other by human standards. But if H is not willing or able to pick up after himself, and I'm not willing or able to get comfortable living his lifestyle, then what is the value in staying together? Some contest to see who can tolerate more? Who can be the bigger martyr? It seems like "freedom" is a gift to both of us, even if it comes in the form of D. Not just because of the office, but the entire list of grievances we hold against each other.
She is not content with who/what she is. I've had many conversations with her and I know this to be true, yet leaving is the answer to her problems. She cannot answer the basic question as to why she is unhappy, she has told me, my counselor, and her friends that she does not know why she is not in love any more. When asked what have I done her answer is nothing that I can point out specifically. That does not sound like a reasonable answer to me. When asked why this is new to me she says, because I have been faking it for six years (really?? we could have been working on it for six years). When the couselor asked her why she has not brought this up her answer was, because I am not good at telling my feelings. None of this sounds healthy. She stuffed her feelings and now my family pays the price. I am no saint and I will own what i did in this marriage. BUT THE WAS needs to look at them self as well and quit blaming everyone else for their misery. I hope this is not you.
You can not change your past, but you can ruin a perfectly good present by worrying about the future.
Thanks for the clarification, Subguy. I was putting too much stock in your W's statement, "I'm leaving because you have all the issues and you need to change not me." I'm not sure what problems of hers you know to be true. But I reiterate that problems are sometimes only a problem from the outside looking in. Your W may be content that she doesn't have the answer to your question, whereas you find it unacceptable. I'm not sure what to do in that case. I could give 20 reasons why H's messy office is a problem of his that he should evaluate, but that is still only my opinion. If he doesn't agree, or even if he agrees but does nothing about it, then what? I'm in the same position as you with your WAW in that my H is making decisions to my detriment that I can do nothing about.
Previously, I would have said I thought it was a cop-out on your W's part that she didn't voice her feelings. But the more I read about men and their avoidance of talking about feelings, and their fear of failure and shame, and how women are never supposed to say anything negative to men because it shames them and causes them to run and hide, etc., I can see why your W might not have even if she was a person that was open with her feelings. At least if she had ever gotten that message anyway. M's are hard. There's lots of conflicting messages. One book says communication is key, the next one says don't talk about problems, literally! ARGH!
I can't speak for your W. I can say I'm constantly looking at myself and reading and trying new things. It gets to the point where it all feels so completely artificial and I'm monitoring everything I do that it's hard to feel comfortable. It's hard to feel like it's worth it. And it makes you wonder what God/nature had in mind when man and woman were developed from the same species.
Just a couple things I learned tonight that I'd thought I'd journal. Some I agree with/recognize, some I don't.
- Talking about feeling disconnected with a man will never get you to a place of feeling connected. - Men don't like to have eye contact during conversation. It's too intimate. - If you have a lot of love without compassion, then the other person becomes just a source of emotion for you. They're not a separate person. If you're not compassionate, all of the M disputes are going to be, "Why aren't you more like me?" - Compassion is that when a person is feeling a core pain, their partner is likely feeling it too. - The most harmonious and intimate memories are times when no one was talking (not for me. This sounds like a reference to sex) - A shared experience is caring about where the other person is in their life right now, without necessarily talking about it. (Huh?) - It's critical to be compassionate and understanding of the emotional state of the other person (but somehow you have to be able to do that without talking about it.) - In the world of social animals, there are only males in the pack if there are predators or competition for food. The function of the males is to protect the females and the young. If they don't need protection (like elephants and rhinos) they don't have males in the pack. - For men, criticism = failure = shame = retreat. - Any fear and anxiety in women, even if unrelated to the man, instills shame in men. - If a man had to choose, he would rather have his W be happy than have himself be happy, because he'll feel like a failure if she's unhappy. (Can't say I've ever witnessed this.) - If the woman feels anxious and disconnected, she tries to reconnect by talking, but this causes the man to retreat, which makes her feel more disconnected and need to calm herself more, which causes the man to retreat more, etc. - If a man feels like a failure as a protector, he can't connect. - Men are largely touch-deprived. - Men like routines. - Men can't separate a criticism of their behavior from an attack on them personally. - No matter how right one person's perspective might be, it's still incomplete because it's only part of the picture.
There are several on your list I disagree with - in the sense they are male-dominated traits. I think it's a short-sighted list
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If the LBS wasn't willing to do for the M what the WAS wanted, they were probably living with someone that was nagging and unhappy most of the time anyway. I would think a D would be a "gift" to the LBS. Then they would be able to continue as they were and not have to change anything about themself.
This isn't the first time I've missed what you were saying. We come from very different perspectives. No surprise, right?
If there is one thing in life that's a constant, it's change. We all must change to adapt to our surroundings. Constantly. Nobody has a choice in that. The question is not if we change. The question is how much we and our spouse change together or apart.
In cases where it is just nagging all the time, some people have a tolerance level where they see the good outweigh the bad. Not that they didn't want different, but that they could tolerate those parts in favor of the beneficial parts. Kind of like drinking cranberry juice - kind of bitter and sweet, yet it tastes great with vodka. I can tolerate the bitter with my vodka.
But don't ever fool yourself into thinking anyone is static. Stop kidding yourself that your H must be the one to change. The only one. Everything you ask of him, it seems should be fair for him to ask of you. Including that you change to suit his needs, just like you're demanding of him.
Put this another way, your H should divorce you because you won't change to suit him. I see. I doubt you meant it so absolute, but I think you're missing something here and I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way it will resonate. But basically that's a two-way street you have just brought up.
You can see plenty of posts on the boards that both support and destroy that theory, CV. In the end, you still need to be the best you, you can be. There are no excuses for not being your best regardless of the spouse's behavior or reaction to your efforts.
Was the end of my marriage a gift? Not really. I choose to see it that way now. But my ex and I were very close until about 9 months pre-BD. Lovers, best friends, parents... But she would say the same thing if asked - I wouldn't change to meet her demands. It took her an additional 6-9 months to figure out a reason she could live with to leave (accusing me of not changing, so she hardened her heart toward me). This wasn't over years, CV. This was overnight for me, so my perspective is a little different.
But let's say it again - I'm being asked to change. I'll change. Then that change isn't what you wanted so I need to change again. So I change. And that isn't what you wanted so you demand I change again. And we repeat the cycle many times. That happens. It happened to me until I put a stop to it.
Was my ex leaving a gift? I see it that way now because I see the person she has become. My kids and I talk about it sometimes (they bring it up), and I can honestly say I would have left her by now if she had not left. In that sense it's a gift. But did I change?
Many times over. Do you really think changing is going to make you happy? Do you really see it as a gift to D somebody because Queen spouse deemed them as "never" changing and never wanting to change? When all along they are accusing their spouse of having a splinter in their eye, yet they have a plank in their own....
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJ, I disagree with some on the list as well. I wonder if we would disagree with the same ones. So how do I distinguish which are true and which are not? These are points presented by an author (Dr. Stosny) and published in a popular book. I've even seen it recommended here. Doesn't it deserve some credibility? Yet if I'm going to just pick and choose anyway, I probably don't even need to finish reading the book, I can just devise my own list from the start.
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Put this another way, your H should divorce you because you won't change to suit him. I see. I doubt you meant it so absolute, but I think you're missing something here and I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way it will resonate. But basically that's a two-way street you have just brought up.
Yes, actually I did mean it so absolute. He should. Case in point - sex. I have absolutely no desire to have sex with him. We haven't touched each other in 6 months, at least. I'm certain he fully expects me to change to accommodate his desire in that area. I would completely understand if he D'd me because I know he wants sex but I neglect to oblige.
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In cases where it is just nagging all the time, some people have a tolerance level where they see the good outweigh the bad. Not that they didn't want different, but that they could tolerate those parts in favor of the beneficial parts.
This is very interesting as you put it. In other words, some people have a tolerance for their spouse's unhappiness (nagging) because they're still benefiting regardless. Like, why put oil in the engine just because the oil light has been blinking for days? Afterall, the car is still getting you to work, right? Pfagh!! Just put a piece of black electrical tape over it and you won't even see it blinking anymore.
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I wouldn't change to meet her demands.
What is the difference between a demand and a request? How does anything our spouse asks of us or we ask of them become a "demand?" We all have free choice. Stating that someone demanded something of you makes them the villain and you the victim. It's not like that. I haven't "demanded" that my H clean his office. He has chosen not to. His choice carries natural consequences, like everything in life. I'm not even sure how I would demand it of him.
I'm curious, you said, "We all must change to adapt to our surroundings. Constantly. Nobody has a choice in that." Then why did you put a stop to it when your W kept asking you to change?
There's a lot at the end of your post that I think is reflecting deeply on your sitch that I didn't quite get. I get the part about me changing and being the best person I can be, but I think we've covered that one pretty in-depth already. I agree, and I work on me all the time, but my definition of the best I can be simply might not be the same as yours or H.
