Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Walk-Away-Spouse ILYBINILWY

Okay, what on earth is apples to apples?

LOL! Apples to Apples is a box game sold retail. I've played it before but don't really remember how.

SS, I've written him letters before. If it has anything at all negative, like I offer my different opinion on a topic, he still responds the same but can skim it instead and get it over with much faster. That's probably his preferred method but no more successful than talking with him.

Yes, Subguy, I could have done exactly that, and have done so before. We're going out with my bro and family for dinner tonight because I organized it.

I don't really think that's the real issue, though, nor was it with my grandparents. The fact is that my grandparents didn't like each other. My grandfather was a male chauvinist pig, not uncommon for the time I'm sure, and he treated my grandmother poorly, at least by today's standards. Like he'd come home from work and dump his cr@p on the floor and expect her to pick it up. And she sure better have breakfast, lunch, and dinner ready when he was ready. He did nothing around the house while she raised six kids. I suspect he saw nothing wrong with it either, since I would bet most of his friends did the same thing.

I'm not suggesting my H is like that, only pointing out that a slew of disrespectful behaviors exhibited by someone for years can make you not like them, even if that person is your spouse. Maybe especially if that person is your spouse. Thus the ILYBINILWY declaration that comes from the WAS.

If it had only been S12 and myself last night, I would have invited him to play. I didn't want to play with H. He has annoying habits that he does in spite of *our* asking him to stop. Like speaking in a weird accent, doing something else while we're playing so he never knows when it's his turn or what's going on, getting up to go do something that takes 10 minutes so we have to sit and wait for him to come back. Cheating. None of these things are off the chart, and most would find it not to be a problem and possibly even humorous the first time. After 100 times of the same thing, it gets really old.

So in keeping with the mindset that MWD presents that it's better to keep the S you have and work with it, I just don't know how to do that, especially when discussing it is completely unsuccessful and direct requests are ignored or forgotten. Yes, I could definitely put together a game night, but then I would just have more memories of how annoying it is to play with H. I wonder if there's a "list" somewhere that I could look through. I've seen lists on here of "What I need in a S." Wonder if there's something on what successful M's look like.

I think part of the problem is that I've just been at this too long. I probably should have D'd H 15 years ago. But I kept reading and talking to counselors and doing M seminars and trying everything I came across. I've changed in countless ways while H is pretty much exactly the same way he's always been (he would confirm this statement.) I wish I was new at this, then all the suggestions would be something I haven't tried before. I think I'm using this thread more as a place to think and vent. It's an open window to the confusion and frustration happening in the mind of a WAS, for anyone that cares to know. If it's any consolation to a LBS, it's not any fun on this side of the R either.

Maybe I just need to let go of the idea of a healthy M and mourn the loss and be happy with GAL'g.

I'm a firm believer in the concept that you can't fix a problem until you understand what it is. I don't need to know the childhood trauma that occurred when someone was 6 months old that is the basis for "why" today, but I do need to know "what" the problem is, not just the visible symptom. So I'm throwing this out for thoughts on what it is, just so I can understand it.

I like to do jigsaw puzzles. Not the brutal ones that are 5000 pieces that are all one color, or where the final image is something like an endless pile of paper clips. Just nice, seasonal images that are enjoyable to do.

H does NOT like to do them. He can spend 10 minutes looking and never find a piece. I understand, that would be frustrating. So he doesn't do them with me.

What he will do, however, is sneak in and steal a piece and keep it until I'm done with all the rest of the puzzle, then swoop in and place the final piece saying something like, "Look, I finished the puzzle!"

This also plays in with telling the punchline of a joke, hammering in one nail so he can say he helped with a project, talking about something I'm currently working on, etc.

What he doesn't ever do is actually participate in the process.

So, yes, I could just let him steal my thunder in everything. I could just sit down and place 999 of the 1000 puzzle pieces and let him put the last one in. I could, but I don't want to. Is it that bad of me that *I* want to put in the last piece after doing the other 999?

Sadly, I've taken to doing things in secret or when he's at work, because it's the only way I can assure that I get ... what? Perhaps it's just self-satisfaction? A sense of accomplishment? I'm not even sure what he's denying me, but I know I definitely don't like it. Whatever it is, I know it's demoralizing.

Any thoughts on why he does this?

I disagree. I think you both care a lot. I also think you don't know how to make it work, and are both searching separately. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I've learned to trust my instincts and strongly suspect that is the case

I think you are very wise to not want to base a happy marriage on what you see or read. Why? Because a happy and healthy marriage are made by two people who are very unique. As such, their definition of a happy and healthy marriage are also unique. If you look for it, you'll find all kinds of negativity surrounding marriage and the opposite sex. A board like this is full of that pain and anguish of relationships broken. Disillusionment. Crazy and otherwise. The media is as well. It makes good sales to read about it, it seems

So, the question remains how to get that healthy and happy marriage, right?

A couple of things to think about while working on that.

Many couples find that years after being unhappy with their spouses they are later happy with them. That seems to be about 5 years if they stick together. That implies that there is some growth going on with one or both spouses. That makes sense to me, because it means they didn't give up and kept searching, sometimes separately but always together, for a resolution they could both live with. And they found it.

But they didn't find it easily or overnight. They committed to each other to stick it out through thick and thin and they did.

My grandparents are a good example of that. During their mid-lives, they had some rough times. At one point, my grandmother was going to leave for another man. Had it all planned out. Before she did, the stress got to her (the stress of leaving; she was conflicted) and ended up a bit nutz. She ended up in a brief stay at a local ward. Took her about a week of the silence to figure it out. But the damage was done to my grandfather and he needed time to figure things out as well. Both of them were very good looking and it would have been easy to walk away for either of them. They got it figured out and loved each other dearly. They were married for 74 years until my grandfather died. They were very close the latter part of their years. Very.

My suggestion? Figure it out. Together. That's the best bet for the happiness you seem to be searching for. There is no quick fix and there is no yesterday. Only now and the future.

Being authentically you is important. You don't know how to be anyone else nearly as well anyway. But there are gray areas to be dealt with. There is change - it's the only constant in life.


Peace,

AJ

CV, I'm trying to understand your point of view and appreciate the effort it takes to post on this web site. In my situation my W dropped the bomb and left within a month. I did not realize that she felt the way she did. She says she tried telling me, however all she did was complain and nag (thats what I heard anyway). Well, that comes across as complaining and nagging. Perhaps if she would have said: when you do x, y, and z it makes me feel like _____. Sadly that did not happen and the patterns that bothered her continued. I have plenty of fault in my marriage and now that I understand I am the one seeking help, from This forum and a counselor. I am trying to understand what/how I impacted our marriage. I give you a huge amount of credit for the work you have put into your marriage.

I did not mean to imply that you don't care about your spouse. It seemed like from your post that everyone sat around and did nothing and then noticed how pathetic it was. I was curious if you all did something together how would it impact you all.

I agree with AJ in the fact that I think you two can find happiness. I am rooting for you CV to find the peace and joy we all deserve. Either with your husband or not.

I hope to pick your brain more so I can explore a little more about the other side of the coin. I truly want to change who I am for me, because I need to be the friend, brother, spouse that I want. I will never try to insult or degrade you, I hope you did not take my post in that manner.



He probably thinks it's cute or funny and does not really get that it pisses you off. Have you asked him about this??

AJ, it's wonderful that your grandparents were so successful at it, especially during a time when there wasn't nearly as much help available. My gp's weren't nearly so, though they were M'd for over 50 years. After my gf died, my gm never showed any interest in another man. I think she enjoyed life without a man in her life, since all she knew was servitude. But you're right, every R has it's own formula for success. I suspect my gf would have said his M was great, because his W served him as he expected. My gm might not have agreed.

It does point out an interesting aspect, though. If my gm had died before my gf, my gf would have been completely lost without her. He didn't cook, do laundry, iron, shop for anything except paint and tools. My gm, on the other hand, never skipped a beat after my gf died. Granted, for the occasional need she had for a manly task, like lifting something heavy, she had 5 boys that she could call on. But otherwise day-to-day, she was fine. My gf would not have been, and his boys would not have been any help.

Likewise in my sitch, my H was very happy the early years of our M, because it was all about him. I mistakenly thought that if I invested in him that he would return the favor and invest in me. He didn't. When I stopped investing in him, "we" stopped doing things together. Overall, life with me is more beneficial to H than life with him is beneficial to me. Now he certainly wouldn't starve like my gf would have, but my loss from his life would affect him much more than his loss from mine, in a negative way that is.

I think I would describe that as the crux of the problem for the WAS. The R simply drains the life out of you. There's something that makes the R still worth it for the LBS that doesn't exist for the WAS. And the continued effort and failure at improving things is demoralizing on top of it. Eventually, it just becomes a matter of not being able to come up with a meaningful answer to, "Why am I in this M?"

Subguy, I didn't take offense to anything you said. In fact, to some degree, I would have said the same thing. H claims that he cares, but I interpret his actions, or primarily his lack thereof, just like you did (not specifically to this incident, but in general.) I do think you pegged it, though, with "She says she tried telling me, however all she did was complain and nag." I think that's my H to a tee. But for me, even your suggestion of using the words, "when you do x, y, and z it makes me feel like _____," doesn't work with H. Are you sure it would have worked with you? From what I read from Stosny, it seems like men (in their natural state) aren't receptive to anything the resembles a R discussion. At least not until life as they know it is threatened. He writes,
So, AJ, with this in mind, how in the world do we "figure it out, together?"

I think it's telling that this is how you feel about your grand parents relationship.

I understand you believe that your gm served your gf throughout their M. And I understand you believe your gm never was with another man after your gf's death because she did not want to be back in a serving role.

And, I wonder if your gm believes the same. If she's stated it, or if you are just assuming it. And even if she's stated it, does she really believe it or is she simply rationalizing something that she chose to do... for what ever reason she chose to do it...

I had the exact same thoughts as KD. Different words though, in my defense

See, people do things for different reasons. We interpret their actions based on what we have experienced and our thoughts. Our "lense" if you will. It's our "perspective" on things and how we interpret them.

Another possibility? Maybe your grandmother wanted to do those things for your grandfather as part of her way of showing him she loved him. I dunno, I wasn't there and not in her head. But people show their love in different ways.

Would your grandfather have gone on without missing a beat? I know several men who have when their wife died even though nobody thought they would. Without missing a beat. What's their choice?

In your H's case, you sell yourself short and don't seem to understand your real value. Do you think he wouldn't go on? I'm sure he misses you. Not the actions necessarily. I don't miss my ex's actions. I can find that anywhere. I went on without missing a beat. She didn't think that was going to happen, and unless I'm totally off-base, I think she wanted me to lay down and die or move away. I don't think she ever in a million years would have thought I'd do what i did - fight for our marriage and stay in the same house and continue parenting the kids.

A relationship is not one-sided even if we don't see all sides. We get different things from a relationship at different times. Your view about what your H is getting out of the relationship is skewed. I can say that because you aren't giving it now and haven't for a while. You haven't been nurturing the relationship for time. He's still there. He's still living. He's still hanging on hoping you'll nurture the relationship. Not that either of you knows what that means or the work it takes. And not to say he has been nurturing it the way you think he should.

Like KD, I wonder if your gm would see things the same way as you regarding their marriage. I wonder if the role she took on is different in her view than it is in your view or anyone else's view (besides mine and KD's)?

I wonder why at one point it was fulfilling and at another it was "draining"? I wonder if it changed, why it changed and if would change again? Like polarization.

I think if I paraphrased what you said, it would be like this: "And my continued failed attempts to fix it the way I say it should be are demoralizing to me, frustrating to us both, and killing my relationship with my spouse. I have no room in myself to see things differently and come to a mutually beneficial way of handling the relationship. I'm too frustrated at how things are. And spouse will never change. Boy will spouse miss me when I'm gone. Doesn't spouse see how this is killing me? It's all spouses fault for not changing the way I want spouse to so I can get my needs met." Did I miss the mark?

AJ

I've seen you mention the puzzle thing a few times now. I'd say it feels like a big thing to you and I totally understand that.
However my guess would be that your H looks at all the pieces and just can not figure out how on earth you do it. He may even feel inferior because he just can't grasp it.
As for the last piece, maybe that is his way of making himself feel better about it. Maybe he is, in his own way trying to say look, I done the puzzle with you. It could be the only way he knows how to do that. It must be frustrating for him to not be able to do them.
I was upset at one stage because my H was playing word games with friends via his phone but he had no interest in playing me.
I think the problem was that I continually won and he didn't like how it felt, so he stopped playing me. He didn't like that I was better at them, then him.
I took it personally, when I think in reality, it wasent personal.

KD, (and AJ,) you're so hyper-analytical at times, I really don't know what to do with it. You'll go way down a rabbit trail that you (and I) can't possibly come up with answers to. Is that really how my gm feels even if she said so? I don't know. And does she know if that's how she really feels or not or is she perhaps rationalizing? Who could possibly answer that question? And I have to say I really don't think it's relevant to my sitch whether she does or not. My gf is dead 20 years now, it's not like I'm going to see the way they interact differently. I may have formed my opinion based upon my perspective, but I didn't form it in a vacuum. And whether I'm completely right or completely wrong in my interpretation of their R, the only thing that's relevant to my sitch is that I knew I didn't want a R the way I perceived theirs to be. That really was the only point I was trying to make. (Only one note: I think it's absurd to think that any W in her right mind would value being treated like a servant, first by her H and then by her 5 boys that followed in daddy's footsteps.)

AJ, I don't know what my H is still getting out of the R, so I don't know how my perspective can be skewed. I know what he used to like because he told me. I know that he would like those things again, because he told me. Other than that, I don't know what you're referring to. I don't know why he's hanging on, other than hoping he can get back what he used to have. He at least knows that I'm capable of pleasing him, whereas he still claims he doesn't have a clue what to do for me (yes, I've told him.) He isn't changing anything otherwise to have things be different. I think I missed the point behind your comment.

Yes, sorry AJ, but you missed the mark on your paraphrase. And I suspect if that's the general attitude of the LBS toward the WAS's sitch, then it's a wonder that any M's are saved with MWD's approach or any other for that matter.

BTW, you didn't answer MY question. I asked how in the world do we "figure it out, together" when R discussion is completely off the table? And, no, I'm not assuming this to be true about my H, I know it to be true. He has pointed it out to me. He's said to me, "Thirty seconds ago, I was cold. Now look at me. All you have to do is start a conversation and I'm instantly hot and sweating, and my heart is pounding out of my chest."