"It'll be too difficult to explain here all the subtleties of the how things changed, but they have for real."
No I think you've articulated very well what you've been doing. In fact, you've been going overboard in some instances to show us "hey look how I've changed! I'm a good boy now! Now she has to come back."
"I knew none of this the first time. If I'm given a second chance, I won't blow it."
That remains to be seen. If you don't change your ATTITUDE instead of just your actions, you will be here in the same position.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Hi everybody, I bought a nice cashmere cardigan, sober but classy, for W, and a card. For S, it is a little red tractor battery powered he can ride on. I don't expect to receive anything, but we'll see. I would not expect anything but maybe a hand made card by your son, which I hope you'll treasure. One more time I ask, what happened to backing off? Did she indicate an interest in suddenly seeing you more? I must have missed that.
As for my activities, already when I was with W I gave up the extreme stuff, so W wasn't too worried. Paragliding and hors-piste ski are relatively mild compared to the previous craziness. W just wasn't happy about the importance it had in my life. sounds like you knew that she didn't like these things before you married her...and it sounds as if you resent this or count it as a grand gesture.
But it's small consistent CORE changes she'll need. Every parent reduces their intense dangerous activities while they have young kids unless they are in the military.
Both my h and I were active duty military but I got out so that one of us could be home safe. I was airborne and I still love to skydive, as does my h. But We both stopped for the first 15 years of having children b/c we wanted to be safe for them, and even now, we never go on the same plane w/each other. It's NOT a sacrifice or proof of love, though. It's just concern. I did not buy or ride a motorcycle, which I love doing. This is the first time I've even mentioned in here in 6 years...it's just NOT a "sacrifice" to me. It's being responsible.
Today h and our youngest are both SCUBA qualified & mutually enjoy it. So you can do all these things again some day...LATER when your son is older. Maybe with him.
But pointing out your non activities now, is like saying "gee I don't get to eat in fine restaurants with my toddler either, b/c sometimes he cries"....and every single one of us who has raised a child will say, "yeah we know..." So don't go out to fancy restaurants without a sitter. It's just not that big a sacrifice for the rest of us to even bother mentioning.
I married a girl who couldn't scuba-dive, rock-climb, mountainbike, etc.. so I guess it's kinda natural she didn't place those things a so important in her life, whereas for me they were why we're living for. so why'd you marry her?
And as for the importance to her, of things she did not do, it's obvious they're NOT important to her, isn't it? Did you only realize NOW that she's not into those things? Were you doing them after the baby was born? That means he was less than a year old, an infant...gee that sounds super fun for HER
Also, I always had a gift for piano, painting, architecture, maths, litterature, physics, chemistry, being n 1 in school and all,.. at some point I was asked to be a model and also politically they wanted me to take responsibilities (which I refused) and probably people would have voted for me because I talk and appear well. what is relevant about any of this?? ^^^^^
My rythm of life and busyness had little to do with her idea of average american guy. Right now, I'm living a life of going to work, coming home to eat supper, sleep and start over the next day. I HAVE to ask, is this^^ what YOU think is the "average American guy"? It's more like a sad single guy w/no family or hobbies or interests. How dull he sounds.
My h is very physically & mentally active. He scuba's, (w/our daughter) he works out, he does archery and hunts, he's a physician who speaks at conferences, he's in a "Current events club", we both base jump when we can (now that the kids are older). We both got our pilot's licensese, & he skydives for the Army...
In addition to my job, I do stand up comedy and I perform in independent films, I joined a writer's club and have been published. I volunteer at a women's shelter, took an Italian cooking class, another French conversation class, some art classes and dance. I learned to hunt big game and to deep sea fish, to cross country ski and to snowmachine.
I don't say this to brag but to show you two things.
1) "we average Americans" are not slugs.
and 2) to show you how to GAL.
It sounds as if you are living a very boring life for some unknown reason.
Why aren't you doing anythig? You only see your son twice a week so what is stopping you from joining something or taking a class or being active?
Why not some skiing? At least cross country skiing is available there b/c I lived in the interior of Alaska WITH a newborn I took care of the most, so I am SURE you have more opportunities for action than I did.
Here, none of the previous stuff is doable, but [b]I'm here for the sake of being with W and S .--> If this isn't loving sacrifice, then what is? [/b] too crazy to answer ....I mean, where to start? A "loving sacrifice" is loving, not resentful and not keeping a score FOR starters...
so I'll defer to what the others said here. Read their words and take them in....but for the record,
there ARE far more things for you to do where you are, then you realize or care to admit.
You're just being stubborn or lazy or refusing to leave your comfort zone. Imagine your wife's reaction to see you join in an activity that is local and new to you AND enjoying it.
You know, If that really isn't possible and you really cannot be happy EXCEPT where you grew up, then you ought to return to France and leave her alone...
So, 1.I take it gratefully that she is acting all nice around me lately. I myself am very upbeat and debonnaire when she's around. (although inside, it's a volcano). 2. Making some space. I asked her out for Friday evening by email. She knows it, no need to insist, call or send e-mails. She already knew you wanted to take her out. WHY more pressure and pursuit? Please, please just STOP.
3. Seeking more time with S. If we cannot work out with W a progressive parenting plan/agreement that leads to 50/50%, I won't bluff on the court thing, I'll launch the motions thing, no matter the cost. And before the judge I must have all the arguments so he grants me my petition. Therefore : I must increase my time alone with S. 4. Finally, keep my expectations low, keep DBing, don't expect a fanfare for every 180 I do, and be patient in actions, not so much in words. not at all in words. ONLY in actions b/c we are trained not to believe the WORDS of a man who has hurt us. And only half the actions are trusted...
I have it all pat down. Way to go. Thanks. B.
Not sure what you mean when you say "I have it all down pat," b/c you clearly do not. Maybe it's an idiom you don't understand. But you make mistakes we warn you about and then you repeat them...so how do you have it 'Down pat"?
Then you say "way to go" as if...I think you are patting yourself on the back....Again, maybe it's the language barrier.
But please take in what the others are saying to you. You're being blessed with feedback you desparately need
so take it in and CHANGE Bruce...before it's too late.
Your post was filled with so much bragging I had no idea where you were going with it.
But now you have a map and you need to follow it.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hi, On the Xmas gift thing, being nice can't hurt. I will give her the cardigan, even if I get zilch.
On my lack of interest in things here, yes, I recognize that since I arrived I have been depressed for 6 solid months. Truth is, I'm not interested in living so much these days.
I know, not very attractive, and I put a mask on every time I'm around W. But I struggle the rest of the time. It's tough.
I want to back off, but still have to interact to arrange visits with S. And negotiate increased visits for that matter!
I felt a bit of patriotism in the response, I'm sorry, I didn't mean average american as disrespectful. The thing is that most of my colleagues spend their week-end in front of the tv watching sports or videogames, so there's not much going on here. As for me, I stay in bed or do nothing until the visit time with S. It comforts me to know that if I have S every other week, I'll be less lonely. Because for the moment, my life suks big time. I'm the loser.
In fact, looking back, I really succeeded in few things in life, maybe I was born to lose, feels like it right now, you have no idea.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
Bruce, if you listened and heard her anything like the way you listen and hear the wise people who WENT THROUGH THIS before you, it makes perfect sense why your wife went back to her parents, and the actions you're taking are going to ensure she stays there.
Go ahead and give her the cardigan. Good luck with that.
I thought the average American comment was very weird. Why would she compare your previous busyness with an average american guy? You're French and she's Canadian, right?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Now, depression and not wanting to do anything, and feeling like a loser, is pretty standard LBS stuff. Do you read other threads here? Find some vets you respect and go back to their beginnings and you'll find the exact same. DB even has a plan for how to help you feel better, appear more attractive and confident, and be best poised to create a newer better relationship if and when your WAS expresses interest in that. You are so far from that. You're right at the beginning.
Have you ever read the rules posted in the newcomers section? Get busy, get a life. Don't mope around and do nothing in between visits. Read them and try them and see how you do.
I'm sorry that you're down, this is very very hard. But you're getting good advice and you're arguing arguing arguing against it. That's not helping.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
on that note, here are the "newbie rules" for you to really TRULY get a handle on.
As others have said, we've been where you are. We know it [censored]. But you have to take in what folks say and that means NOT arguing with us or defending yourself. you're the only person I've heard of who did NOT get much from his DB coach experience. I urge you to try again and HEAR them...
Just THINK about how you can DB better, & see if our suggestions help.
Here are "the rules"...(and don't dismiss the idea of calling the DB coach again)
These are "Rules" for newcomers assembled/organized by Sandi, consisting of principles based on MWD's Div Busting approach, (& edited SLIGHTLY by yours truly). I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to. I know I did.
FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"….
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off! 2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then, don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse. 7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence. 8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) In short, No Snooping.
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.) 12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne/perfume, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, do 180s… (so if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her to initiate), then be rather scarce or minimal with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short & simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! (No matter what time he/she comes home.) You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy YOUR life and time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life too. 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. The supposed changes will look like "tactics" to get them back & then they won't believe the changes are lasting.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive & fun to be with. (As hard as this is, remember that angry, sad, pouting people do NOT ATTRACT others to them). The FUN somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that. 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Never lose your temper! (That reinforces their choice to leave). Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill or be over the top in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake. 23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient……VERY, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works! 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do NOT interrupt them when they are speaking, OR correct them, and stop what you may be working on or doing, to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. (Listening better never hurts.) 26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Silence can be the loving thing to "not say."
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Calmness is soothing to the calm person AND their "audience". Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only, NOT your spouse. The more you tell them what you are doing (or trying to show them) the more your actions will seem manipulative & insincere.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write or a single dramatic gesture. (Not saying not to do/say those too, but focus on consistent changes, over time. That earns the spouse's belief in the changes).
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, & even when you truly feel desperate & needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. Very important that you get this concept. 31. When you communicate with your spouse, do not focus on yourself; instead, focus on them. If in person, make eye contact.
32. Do not believe any of what THEY SAY and less than 50% of what THEY DO. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared, AND OR, b/c they want to justify their leaving.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes! Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return. 35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day, unless absolutely necessary. (That means only in urgent matters.)
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. 38. Do Not convince yourself that being miserable or sad shows how much you care for your spouse. It's not attractive or appealing, period.
39. If there is OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave. 40. Know that you really will be alright in the long run, that your personal work will yield good things regardless of the choices others make. You will be happy again.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hey, Thank you for reminding the basic rules, (which I broke several times). I'll give DB coach another go.
Just two quick questions : -If "Receiving Gifts" is one of her 5 love languages, how not giving her anything for Xmas is going to help my cause. Am I not burning the biggest opportunity of the year to at least fulfill that need?
- While back in France these next weeks, should I write an email to say hi, tell her how things are going, etc... or NC (no contact at all), although a bit blunt,is a best approach?
Your opinions on this? Merci beaucoup, Bruce.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
She does not want to receive love from you. Focus on the rules first. Trying to throw love at her now will put her off.
You have to be very subtle in offering loving gestures to her right now, and subtlety is not your strong suit. Try to be conservative.
She's not going to forget about you or worry that you don't love her. Right now she's trying to get space from you and you're asking her on dates and buying her presents. There's no fear of her forgetting you...you should be worrying more that your continued forceful presence is reminding her repeatedly of how much she does not want to be with you.
Step back from her, and give your love to your son. THAT is very attractive.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Just two quick questions : -If "Receiving Gifts" is one of her 5 love languages, how not giving her anything for Xmas is going to help my cause. Am I not burning the biggest opportunity of the year to at least fulfill that need?
Your W has a lot of built up resentment for you. Until you get past that, your gifts will be fruitless.
You can give her a gift, BUT it is almost a guarantee it will not warrant what you expect or hope. When we do these types of things and attach an expectation, we usually come away disappointed. I'm sure you'll tell me you don't expect anything in return. If that is the case, then don't do it.
Simply give her a card wishing her a Merry Christmas, signed Bruce. Nothing more.
Originally Posted By: Big Bruce
- While back in France these next weeks, should I write an email to say hi, tell her how things are going, etc... or NC (no contact at all), although a bit blunt,is a best approach?
Only contact her about anything that pertains to your son. Otherwise, leave her alone.
Me:45 ExW:48 M:04/97 3 Bombs & 2 ReCons 1st BD 11/10 D Finalized 4/20 D-16 S-14 Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
