Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Separation at 17.5 months

OK. Day 1 of separation negotiations.

I told H I would like to go over the entire draft agreement he gave me, and hear from him what each section means, so that I really understand it and where he's coming from.

He said it's mostly boilerplate and I said that's ok, I just want to understand it better before I start responding to it.

So we took the dogs for a walk to Starbucks and I brought a copy and a pen.

Start Date: First I asked him about the 5/1/11 date the agreement said the separation began. Was that a date that was important to him for a particular reason, or suggested, or just a date to fill in the blank. H said it doesn't matter to him, its just the date he thought it should be.

Child Visitation: I noted that the agreement said the husband shall have liberal and frequent visitation, to be no less than two (2) days per week. I said I just wanted to understand how he saw that in real terms, like, did he mean to take them every single weekend? I said I was glad to see he wanted them more than what I thought he'd ask for, two weekends a month. He said it was just what his L told him was standard, and it didn't matter to him whatever worked was ok, that sometimes the kids would be busy or have other plans and he just felt like he didn't control how much they'd be with him.

I said, it's a legal contract I'm signing that says I give them to you no less than 2 days a week. That is enforceable. I recognize that we'll want to be flexible and reasonable, but two days a week is pretty clear in here.

I said, I thought about it and think it could work really well if you take them Thursday through Sunday every two weeks. Then you have four straight days with them and still have half of the weekends on your own. But you'd need to get them to school and activities, and stuff, could you do that? H hadn't thought about it.

H said, well on some weekends they want to hang out with friends, and I said yes, so when you're parenting them, you'll drive them to their friends and be in charge of knowing where they are. It's part of being a parent to do that, so I think it's important that you're on for that sometimes like I am.

H said, I thought some people see their kids on like a Wednesday night. I wasn't thinking that the two days would be full days. I told him in my opinion two days per week doesn't mean you visit for a few minutes or a couple of hours to take them out to dinner and that's one of the days per week that you have them. I said, I'm not an expert in this either but I want both of us to really understand what we're signing before we get into it. I think the people with Wednesdays have an agreement that says something like "two weekends a month plus Wednesday evenings."

I noted that Christmas is an important holiday for our family and the agreement says we trade off years of having them three consecutive days including Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I just noted that this seemed ok to me, since we're used to celebrating things when we can instead of always on the exact day. I mentioned that I see a lot of other people split it so that one gets Christmas Eve and the other gets Christmas day so they get to share every Christmas. I wanted us to be clear on it but at this time I think it's ok as written.

CHILD SUPPORT: I asked him if the child support in this was exactly what the formula in our state dictates. He explained that Child Support comes to about 1700 and so does our mortgage and related taxes so he's saying while he continues to pay the mortgage until the house is sold, he won't pay child support. His rationale is that his money's tied up in the house so it's easier for him to be able to just pay the mortgage, and doing that helps me. I know, I know, we will revisit this; this was just my chance to understand what he was proposing.

Once the house is sold or if I buy him out, the agreement states he'll pay what our state guidelines say. Payments end when each child graduates high school. H said since he agreed to pay the mortgage until the younger one graduates, there's actually two years where he's still "paying" for the older one though technically he doesn't have to, and this is to help with college expenses for them.

This section and spousal support may both need to be extensively rewritten, but I would rather buy him out now or as soon as possible. Of course that will significantly change his liquid asset situation.

Spousal Support: While he's paying the mortgage there will be no spousal support. I said, "so youre saying your spousal support obligation is zero?" He said no, I'm paying the mortgage so you don't need support. I said, but you just said the mortgage payment equalled child support. So then the spousal portion of it is zero. He explained that he was giving up having a place to live, deferring access to his equity, etc, etc, and that was in exchange for my rights to spousal support. Plus, he won't have cash available to pay me anything since he's paying the mortgage on a house he's not living in.

If the house is sold then spousal support will be calculated based on our current incomes pursuant to our state's support guidelines but none after 12/31/2017. Any spousal support would end if the H dies, the W dies/remarries/cohabits >12 months, or on 12/31/17 whichever comes first.

"Spousal support is nonmodifiable..." we didn't discuss that but I'll ask L if that's relevant or ok.
That is standard language and you want it nonmodifiable. My ex tried to get our modified and the judge said "no can do". It's a binding legal contract. Some things to consider....while he is paying the mortgage...if you were receiving that money as Spousal support....you pay the taxes on it. Is he going to say the mortgage is CS then he gets the tax break on his income..also, who is going to get to claim the house interest on taxes.... TAXES are a big issue....make sure you understand all the implications....read up tax laws on kids...cause they drop off. Also, if college is a consideration for your kids I would have some kind of language regarding post secondary education....like my 18 year old...my EX does not pay anything for so while he is college he still needs some parental support for clothing etc.....


Medical Insurance: H will keep me on his plan until we're divorced. He said that could be the rest of this year, I don't know when that will be, I'm not in a hurry. (He meant the rest of 2013). I thought that was interesting. I think that's weird, that he's in a hurry to separate but has no specific plans yet to get divorced. I bit my tongue because right now I feel like getting divorced as quickly as possible so I can get on with my life. Moving on.My private insurance runs about $320 per month...look at the costs of decent plans....Cobra was very expensive and I think you can only do it for 6 months or so

Personal Property. He gets his car, I get mine, and we have 60 days to update our titles. I asked if he knows how to do that and he doesn't yet and he said the L seemed intent on putting in the 60 days. He said the L acts like we're going to "go after" each others' cars and we're not going to so we don't have to do the titles until we go to sell the cars, or whenever. I said, I'm signing a legal document that I'll get it done within 60 days, and that seems reasonable, so I think we need to figure out how to get it done. (I don't want to be running around after him in 6 years to get him to the DMV...).
This is to protect both of you...if he hurts someone or you do...even if your divorced and your name is on the title....they can SUE you! So get that done ASAP

Household furniture and effects: The agreement says all furniture and all personal property have been divided and it's all free and clear of any claim or demand from the other. No list or anything. I told him, you know, you're entitled to have of our marital property, like the dining room furniture, living room furniture, etc, to have it or to sell. Are you planning on leaving everything? He said well, I'm going to take my gun safes, and my bike.... I left that alone.

I have been working on a spreadsheet that itemizes our possessions and indicates which of them are my property or his property (a lot of the furniture is antiques that came down through my family and I am entitled to them without considering them part of the marital assets). The things we owned together, I put in suggestions of whether they go to him or to me or stay with me simply because they belong to the kids who are staying with me (eg their beds and dressers). This document may not be necessary if he's seriously planning to sign an agreement that says he's not taking anything. But I want him to understand at some point, that in six months I do not want him showing up at the house for the DVD player. I will give it to him now if he wants to have or sell it, but he's giving up his claim to it later. He should be clear on that.

He said he'll think more about that and the visitation and may make changes to those sections.

Bank Accounts. He listed all of our accounts and noted which are solely his and which are marital. I asked him to explain this section and he has basically separated everything effective July 1 when he printed out the statements for our financial adviser (as opposed to May 1 which the agreement says is the start of our separation) and then made adjustments for money I already moved to a new account and other adjustments that started to make me feel confused. Basically he's done some calculations to figure out that I'm owed $30K and he's moved the accounts around so that I end up getting that. (I'm just going to have to throw that one to the financial advisor to help me sort it out).

There's a loan he took from his mom's account to pay for my car and our home addition of a porch, and the way he's described what happens to that confuses me every time I look at it. I asked him to explain it and again unfortunately it went in one ear and out the other. He wants to reduce what I get by my portion of that, even though we both know he doesn't plan to give it to her. Another one for the advisor to help me.

Retirement accounts, we didn't discuss much. I asked if they were invested in well-performing investments and he said no they're mostly in cash right now to keep them liquid, which I knew from my advisor questioning me months ago why someone supposedly educated in investing is keeping so much money in cash. Basically, after we separate them I need to invest my share better.

Wife's business. We did not discuss this. He's stated that he waives all right, title, and interest in it. I'm not going to kick that sleeping dog.

Marital residence. He's suggested that I have exclusive use and possession and he pays mortgage taxes and insurance, I pay utilities and cable/internet/phone, maintenance up to $500. Over $500 we mutually agree upon and split. It doesn't not mention if this is an annual number but I'll clarify that when we get to that point.

It says if I rent a portion or all of the premises we split the rent 50/50. I told him the kids do not want me to rent to a stranger so that option isn't really on the table for me. He said well you never know, maybe your sister will want to rent a room and you'll only charge her $50. He said, I want you to be able to charge what you want instead of fair market value so I worded it that way. Ok, probably moot but not unreasonable. But if I can buy him out it will be definitely moot.

He wrote in that he gets the first $15K of equity upon sale to repay our joint marital debt to his mom. I just don't understand that. Every way I look at it, it looks like he gets his car and I'm paying him $15K for my car. I just can't see it from his point of view. Hopefully the advisor will help me figure out a win win here. It may become relevant that the agreement doesn't address $15K I inherited from my aunt that he or I deposited in our joint checking account even though I stated what my plans were for it. That may just be legally gone, unless we negotiate ourselves some agreement about it.

Taxes. The agreement says we'll fine separately beginning 2012 but H said he wants to file jointly for 2012. I told him I believe its financially better to do that. He said he may even want to file jointly for 2013 because if we're still married in any part of 2013 we can.

H will be able to claim the mortgage interest while he's paying the mortgage. Assuming there will be a period until I can refinance and buy him out, financial advisor will need to help me figure out if that makes sense. It may be more fair for us to split the mortgage and utilities 70/30 or whatever works out to what he had planned, so that our net is what he intended it should be.

Disposition of Debt. It says that he's not responsible for any debt I incurred after May 1, which includes a lot of family expenses and the trip he encourage me to take with the kids. According to him, he has taken that into account in the calculation and if I end up with $30K that's fair. I will have to figure that out too, because I lived according to our joint standard of living from May 1 until now, using our joint credit card a lot of the time. According to the letter of this, I'm responsible for reimbursing him for all of that, and I will have to check and see if his calculation offset it correctly.

I told these concerns to my financial advisor and asked her to make sure I'm not being penny wise and pound foolish. I know that aggravating him over odds and ends may hurt me in the long run in items of more value. An example is I know he's got airline miles for having travelled to the other side of the world several times for work, and that should be a marital asset I'm entitled to half of that he did not bring up as an asset. It may be in my best interest to let that go, or even to ask for it and then trade it for something.

College. I asked him what we have for the kids' college. He said we have two 529's each about $3,000. He said other college savings were lumped in the cash account because he needed to keep it liquid in case he lost his job or something. So when I get my portion it will include amounts we had intended to save for college. I may want to start investing it for that purpose, or H said I may want to keep it liquid in case I need to spend it. Either way, he said, the worst place for it to be when we start applying for financial aid is in a cash account. He was thinking he'd put his into a car since his car's getting old. I will have to educate myself on saving for college.

We had a big discussion about the fact that the dad gets to leave with an agreement for support that ends after high school and the mom ends up having to scrounge and beg for help with college from someone who she divorced almost a decade ago, who may have a new wife and baby and different priorities. He said that is just the way it is. He said people fight over college costs if they're married as much as if they're divorced. I said I thought a married couple would negotiate them as a team with common interests, and that will be possible but much less likely 10 years from now as a divorced former couple.

He said there is a lot of uncertainty. S12 isn't performing in school. S14 looks like he will do fairly well but even so, will it make sense to send him to college? It's looking like the best occupations coming up with be electricians and plumbers. Everything is going to change as more people decide not to buy into the hype promised by a college education. I agree that S12 is not showing himself to be someone who makes sense going through four more years of standard classroom instruction in order to get a standard corporate job. His temperament just doesn't work well in that setting, and he can really shine in a less traditionally academic area. But he's only a 7th grader; there are things we don't know yet.

Also, I asked him if he feels some kind of standard obligation to support a kid's college education but nothing comparable if he doesn't go to college? H said correct. I said, what about a down payment on a house? Nope, he said. Interesting. I came from a background where that was the same expectation. You will go to college, we will pay for it, and then you're on your own; or else, you're on your own. I kind of feel like providing equally for my two kids, but I haven't sorted all that out yet.

We talked more about child support. I asked him if he knew what it was meant to include, and he said everything related to the child. I said what about sports equipment, braces, summer camp? Yes, yes, and yes, everything. I said, I do not know for sure either but we should both understand what it's intended to include. I had been told that it's calculated to include their basic necessities of life - food, clothing, shelter. It isn't intended to include sports equipment and summer camp. But I'll explore it more and so should he, so he understands what it is that he's paying for. He said, what does it matter...it's all I can afford, and it's all the court says I should pay.
I am learning this lesson the hard way....it does not include unless specified anything other than that money. My EX contributes nothing but support ordered. I pay for car insurance for both teenagers..$2000 per year because their dad is not present and I need them to be able to drive themselves. I encourage everyone to negotiate this at least if not everything else. My attorney says that I can't ask for anymore than support...he has never bought a pencil nor a piece of paper for them. Also, out of pocket medical expenses....they are usually a formula...my ex is suppose to pay 89% and me 11%...of course I am in a court battle with him for not pay since the Divorce in 2010.
I said it matters because he should at least understand if he intends that I pick up all of that stuff out of my income or we go without it, or have to ask him on a case by case basis.

He said the court obviously meant it's everything because it's on a sliding scale based on our income, but I think that has to do with standard of living and still accounts only for "basic necessities." I could be wrong, and I told him I'm not discussing it with him by way of asking for more or anything at this point, I'm just trying to make sure we both understand what we're signing.

So finally, I asked him again if he thought it might be time to tell the kids and start living over at his friend's house if that was his plan. He said he guessed so. I told him that being secretive had served a purpose when I hoped we might reconcile, but we weren't going to reconcile and it was now more hurtful and painful to keep this a secret, when we have a paper we're working on actively to separate us. I said I do not want to go through Christmas pretending we're happily together when we are not.

I brought up our anniversary and told him it was a little rascally of him to duck out when my parents came over to give us a card and gift. He said well I only got a half hour notice! I agreed, and said that's fine. But consider if you had more notice would you have wanted to be there and accept their congratulations and gift? He said no, but he would have done it. I said, but it would have been uncomfortable for you, just like it was uncomfortable and painful for me and I did it anyway. Just because I was putting on a happy face didn't mean this pretending wasn't uncomfortable and painful for me, and now it was serving no purpose.

He agreed that we'll tell the kids. I asked him what he'll say. He said, well I'll say there's a lot of details still to be decided.... [crickets]. I said, ok. I ran this by IC and here's my best effort: "kids, we have been having some problems and we have just not been able to resolve them, and so we're going to separate and eventually get divorced. Dad's going to be moving out and we're going to try to keep everything else as much the same for you as possible. So we're staying here in this house and just dad will live elsewhere. We don't have everything else decided yet. I'm sorry this happened, but it's not your fault and has nothing to do with you; it's just something that happened between us." He said that sounded good to him.

We arrived home, and S14's friend was ready for a ride home so I took him home and then hung out in our room with H and S12 for a while. Then S12 went off and H and I hung out for a while... And then I said, S14 is home and his friend went home, so whenever you want to have that talk.... [crickets] I said, by the way, I was thinking, if you want to be with me when I tell my parents so we tell them together, I can guarantee that's going to make things less awkward going forward. I just wanted to offer that to you if you want. If not, I'll tell them myself after we tell the kids. [crickets] I said we can decide that later after we talk to the kids. Because I know I'm throwing a lot at him all at once and I don't expect him to know off the top of his head if he wants to talk to my parents about separating from me. Who would?

I think we got a lot of good out on the table today.

I'm rereading a book my IC suggested, He Had It Coming, by Stacy Schneider. It's a lousy title because I have to hide it, but then again I'm hiding all my other relationship books so it's not a big deal. But it helps a lot in getting past the emotion to think strategically and not shoot yourself in the foot. It was from this book that I got the idea that I may choose not even to bring up something small in order to maintain goodwill that might after bigger things.

That is one of the reasons why I didn't and am not going to have the talk with him about how disappointed I am that he emailed the separation agreement and how offended I was by that. That accomplishes nothing, makes me feel marginally better, and will just make him feel more justified in divorcing me and the sooner the better to stop all the complaining and "emotional" stuff. It's just business right now, and that puts me in the strongest position out of a choice of all bad positions to be in.

S12's new ipod arrived today. It shattered on the first day of our cruise trip, and I unilaterally ended up deciding to replace it with a refurbished exact same item for $170. It arrived today, and S has been anxiously awaiting it, asking every day if it's here yet. So I decided to try coparenting. I brought the box to H first and told him I had decided to get it and how much more it was than just the cost of the screen repair, but I suggested we make it his main Christmas present. If that was ok, could we give it to him now? H said it was ok, and yes, so we called him upstairs and gave it to him together, and told him it was going to be his early Christmas present.

He said what about Bioshock? (S12 and I had been discussing bioshock and looking at reviews and trailers together because he reallyreally wanted it and knew that we couldn't ask any relative to give him such a violent game, he knew it would have to come from us if at all.) So I laughed and said, ok, if you want bioshock instead that's ok, just let me take back the ipod, and he clutched the ipod... So I said, no let's just talk to Dad about Bioshock, and S12 explained what he knew of the plot and the amount of violence and gore but how cool it was and how fun and he reallyreally wanted it. H looked up a review on his ipad and read the whole thing out loud, and we talked about how S12 hadn't liked Saw movies, and we talked about the relative badness of gore vs sexual violence, and we talked about if he could only play it when a parent was in the room to see and / or talk about what was going on. And we talked about videogame time limits and software that would cut it off after a certain while, and H liked the idea of that and started researching those on the ipad. We agreed that we would both be OK with S12 owning bioshock but he would need to turn it off if he was feeling too disturbed, and we wouldn't care if he didn't end up playing it much. So - the peanut gallery may say we're bad parents about that game - but I think it was ok coparenting.