If you have a replay of last night, do you know how you would handle things differently? The first thing you did that you should not have done was to "respond" to that first TM. Nothing! If he wanted to call or keep trying to TM, let it go to VM or whatever.
What should you have done differently when he came home? For one thing, don't even show him you are awake. Let him stumble around, turn on lights or blow whistles, but you don't respond. Even if you happen to open your eyes when he turns on the light switch, you just give him an emotionless glance and turn over as if to go back to sleep. Above all, do not say anything! No questions, no statements, no thinking out loud. He told you the very first thing he didn't want to answer a bunch of questions, so that says what he was expecting, right? It's time to surprise him with a different response, and that being.....no response at all.
I can tell that it would be a real challenge for you not to say anything. It is hard not to give over to your emotions, but if you believe the M is worth it.....then you can do it.
You see, when you have a WAH, you have to play things quite differently until he works through whatever he's going through and has the desire to do whatever it takes to save the M. Your WAH is a long way from being at that point. And, remember this.....he needs to not have any doubts about what he wants, when it comes to the M. So, you cannot let it be easy for him. He has to "work" to get you. That's why he isn't coming around now, b/c you are trying to convince him how much you love him and how great the M can be. Don't do that. In order to turn this around and you be in charge, you have to stop telling him how you feel. He needs to feel some concern about whether or not he's messed up to the point of losing you for good. You can start the ball to rolling by just not responding to him like you did this time.
The key is that you don't act like you're mad. That's important. What a lot of LBS's don't realize about detaching is that it is not about acting like you're pouting or you're hurt or angry. What you do show is unconcern. You know, kind of like a stranger. You don't contact him throughout the day. Why? B/c when you contact him, it immediately lets him know that you care. Even if you chew him out....it shows you care. If you didn't care, you wouldn't say or do anything, right? It is the man's nature to get you to care. That's why God put that chasing thing in them. That's why they like these women who present them with the challenge to win them over. Guys are built that way. But whenever the woman steps in the position of pursuing him, it often takes away his need for her. Oh I know some guys have said that the girl chased him until he decided to go with her. Of course, the few who said it was referring "before M". But I guarantee you it's not the same as I'm talking about here. It's not his true nature. He was designed a certain way, and that's how he operates. When we try to force him to do something he doesn't really want to......we become an immediate turn-off to him. That's when they start calling us names. That's why some men give in to "some" things just so they can have peace at home. But you want more from him than that, right? You still have a chance, but you need to start today.
First, stop initiating contacts. Don't respond when he sends TM like the last time. Don't respond if it's not absolutely necessary.
Use the holidays as a good reason to start acting as if you are in a happy mood. Don't give him a reason when he asks, but just something in general like, "it must be the season", and have this little smile on your face. It's a beginning, at least. The hard part is acting as if you have this little secret that is making you happy. You do! You have the DB information and that makes you a winner....with him or without him.
Men love to be around women are peaceful and happy. Happiness just draws people, you know? It's hard not to like a happy person!
It doesn't mean that you approve of how he is acting in the MR, or anything else. It doesn't mean "anything". You are just acting happy with yourself. That's all.
No more talk about the R. Period, over, done. I know....you don't see how it will work out otherwise, but it can.
You've got to have confidence in yourself. Not only do men think that's sexy, but you need it to stay on this course. You've got to believe in "you". You can't convince him if you don't believe in that best gal.
Fill your calendar. Plan to be gone when he usually comes home, or be all dolled up when he gets home......tell him dinner's in the oven and you're going out. Always have a back-up plan in your pocket. Don't assume anything out of him....but better yet, is to get things to the place he doesn't assume your actions.
If you do this right, he won't think it is some game you've cooked up. Men hate games. If he thinks it's a gimmick to win him over, you'll lose. It's not a game. However, it is a strategy. Nobody would win a war if they didn't have a strategy, and you are in the fight of your life.
If you can get through a few days at a time, you'll see how much better that plan works compared to what hasn't been working.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes I can absolutely do that. I'm ready now, and pain is a great motivator! I was doing that fairly well for a while, but slipped up this past week or 2. I hear you and I agree. Acting like he owes me nothing is realllly difficult - but I think I can do that! Where I get stuck is in thinking "god, this could go on for a year!" And then I break bad...
Everything you said resonates with me and is true. He is the one-up right now, and I am the one-down. I would very much like to get the hell out of that dynamic, it's very uncomfortable!
When I was dating, my friends used to always beg me to tell them how I could always be so "aloof" and have men I was in R with "pursuing" me, when they were doing the exact opposite - chasing, begging, pleading, and losing. I need to get back to that.
Ok so, yep - I'm done backsliding now. Actually just before I got home and read this, I got up from my computer work and got dressed. I needed to get away a little. I hadn't said much to him all morning, but I wasn't mean, just detached. He nicely asked me if I was taking our dogs, and I said I was. When I came back, he asked me if we were still going camping this weekend. Small small steps again, but hey. I decided today on my hike that I'm done playing this game of "the lesser than". I will remain nice but I'm really not going out of my way to do anything exceptionally "wifey," if that makes sense. Let him earn it back, whenever that may be...
Sandi, you know you totally read my mind. I was thinking when I was hiking "what could/should I have done differently last night? What would I have done if I could take it back?"
The answer was absolutely nothing - don't react, don't TM him back, nothing. But once again, some of us need to get hit in the head with a 2X4 more than one time, before we get it.
I like the word you said - unconcern. It's perfect.
I was doing pretty well last month, I thought....I wasn't TM him when he left for work, wasn't asking about anything, being nice but not needy - until I let my emotions take over. Wrong! So I'm taking your suggestions.
I do struggle with this idea though: by behaving as if I'm unconcerned, not bringing up the M / R at all, and generally doing my own thing and being happy, isn't that like giving permission to his behaviors I don't appreciate? If our WAS does something next week that is "disrespectful" how do we make it clear we don't like something, while detaching at the same time? Striking that balance is tough for me to understand yet, because at what point do we get to talk about how their behaviors affect us? Do we have to put that on hold for a while? Is it ok to put these feelings on hold for months while they work out their stuff? I guess I need to know if that's healthy to do. How do you put your own feelings of hurt on hold, things that would normally wreck you, while not feeling like you just turned yourself into a doormat?
I guess it goes back to giving nothing for a while. But what do we do with all our hurt in the meantime?
"Can you do it?" wasn't a challenge with a right answer, it was an honest question that you should ask yourself because sometimes living that way is either not okay, or not possible. I have no doubt that MWD's program would be successful in almost every case if people could do it perfectly, because it really is a good prescription. It's an uphill battle, however, against hurt and need, and you need to decide if that's worth it, because the truth is that he has wronged you by having an affair, and being married you have every right to expect to have your needs met. This program requires that you put both of those aside for potentially a long period of time.
The great news is that it sounds like the two of you have been working well as cordial roommates or friends. That's great! A lot of WAS won't do that. The downside is that it's going to wreak havoc with your expectations and hopes when things start going well or feeling good but he still sleeps on the couch. You'll constantly be wondering "maybe tonight" and that can eat you alive.
As Sandi mentioned, men and women communicate differently and have different perspectives stereotypically. I can tell you a couple things that work for me and maybe they can help you. First, if you have something "challenging" you want to talk about, it's natural to think about it for a while and when the time feels right *for you* to jump into it with your husband. If he doesn't engage the way you want you can get frustrated which will make you push even harder and for him to get frustrated and angry too. At the same time, you are perfectly entitled to discuss these things and expect to have a meaningful discussion. (Not now, when things get better)
Here's one technique -- rather than jumping into it when you introduce it, say to H "I've been thinking a lot about X and I'd like to discuss it with you when you're ready. Do you think you can get back to me [before the end of the week] with a time to talk?"
This way, he has some time to prepare his thoughts, some time to build up mental energy, no issues with being distracted from something he was engaged with, etc. etc. For me, time to prepare is key. I've learned that about myself and now tell W "I'd like to have that discussion but I need a little time to think about it first, can we discuss it [future time]?"
Another tactic that can help -- when you have these conversations, you will often have a position you want to advance, a point you want to make, or a commitment you want to extract. You have an agenda. The other person can feel steamrolled when that happens. One thing to try is that when you first discuss the topic, just listen, repeat and clarify what the other person is saying, keep yourself out of it completely, no rebuttals, no defensiveness, just listen and make sure you get it. Then, the next day, tell him that you've been thinking about what he said and you want to make sure you understood it and clarify some things. Then, read his position back to him and see if you have it right.
Why do this? Because if he's being unreasonable or unfair, when you read it back to him the next day he's going to see it and will often self-correct without you having to force the issue or fight about it. If he doesn't, this is where you say what you have to say, but at this point he feels like he's been "heard" so he won't be as defensive or argumentative, and you may avoid arguing about something you only misunderstood.
Finally, if you get into something that does get heated, call a time out. This seems to be the boundary your H has set. That doesn't mean dropping the issue forever. You can just say "hey, this is getting heated, let's take a time out. Can we pick it up again [tomorrow][after 48 hours]?" Get a commitment to come back to it later and you will feel better leaving the discussion.
I'm hopeful that these things will make things better for you in the near term.
The other thing that I'll touch on is your need to ask R questions. This is 100% normal. As the LBS, "elephants in the room" accumulate over time until the weight of them is tearing at us and we backslide and have the R talk. What you need to realize is that 95% of communication between two people living together is non-verbal, so there is almost a 100% chance you know the answer before you ask it. You found this in the last few breakdowns you've had. What you're really doing is begging the other person to reassure you that their non-verbal communication isn't true. Even if they do that, you'll have a hard time believing them because of how they've been acting, which then degenerates into an argument. Next time you're tempted to have this discussion, ask yourself if you already know the answer, or describe what's going on and ask the questions here.
This non-verbal communication is also crucial with Sandi's points, how you act is 100% as important as what you say. If you walk around the house with your shoulders stiff, you're on edge. If your shoulders are relaxed, you don't care, and that's the vibe you need. If you're watching a movie together and you keep glancing at him trying to read his emotions by his expression, he's going to notice. Don't look at him at all and he'll notice that too. "Act as if" is *really* hard to do well, because you have to control what you do and "how you are" in addition to what you say whenever you are together.
Originally Posted By: bestgal
by behaving as if I'm unconcerned, not bringing up the M / R at all, and generally doing my own thing and being happy, isn't that like giving permission to his behaviors I don't appreciate?
You don't have to give someone permission to neglect you, you're not an active participant in that at all. The better way to think about this is how you'd respond to a bully -- the best response is no response. Don't let them know they got to you. That doesn't imply that what they are saying is true in any way.
Originally Posted By: Bestgal
If our WAS does something next week that is "disrespectful" how do we make it clear we don't like something, while detaching at the same time?
The answer to this is boundaries. Your H has created a boundary and you see how effective it is. He's said that he will not get into arguments where you won't let the matter go. He's not telling you what to do, he's just saying that if you do that, he won't engage with you.
That's how you deal with a disrespectful WAS. You make boundaries. "I will not share a house with someone who stays out partying all night. If you persist in doing that, you will need to find another place to live." (Assuming you have the ability to evict them) You're not telling them they can't stay out partying all night, you're just saying that if they do, you won't live in the same house with them.
"I will not be spoken to disrespectfully. If you speak to me disrespectfully, I will leave the room." Once again, they can be as disrespectful as they want, but you're not going to listen to it.
The boundary must always be expressed in terms of what *you* will or will not accept and what *you* will do if the boundary is violated. It can't be about what the other person can or cannot do -- they can do whatever they want because you simply cannot control them as much as you might want to.
That's why a boundary is different from an ultimatum. An ultimatum is about what they can or cannot do, a boundary is about what you will do.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
That's really helpful, thank you. That is exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for. And I understand it isn't easy to put up with it long term (my saying "I can do it" was more an answer to what I understood to be a question of "Am I ready and willing to go through this right now?", which I am). If I need to, I suppose I can re-evaluate it if I start pulling out my hair or something....
I will need to really take this in for a bit before implementing it for my first try - I'll probably read it again a few hundred times, ha ha! But really, as you mentioned, preparing is key. And I guess I've never had enough boundaries that weren't also ultimatums or threats -I honestly didn't know how to do this stuff. I'm not expecting miracles up front, although when I can detach I notice my experience being around him is a whole lot smoother. And I am lucky in that at least we're still genuinely liking each other's company. I just need to stand watch on my impulses until it's more natural again. Great great suggestions, thank you again!
Scaredsilly I couldn't agree more. Especially for the sake of keeping sanity in tact, it wouldn't hurt to do it either. I have started over today and am getting back on track, so I'm going in for the long haul. Honestly, we can see where my own way of doing things got me....
Glad it was helpful, it can be really hard to just listen and absorb when the other person is spewing total crap or has completely misunderstood you. Everything you have will be screaming to correct his perceptions or defend yourself. Learning to hold back in the moment is a muscle that must be exercised to be strong. Keep telling yourself that "I hear you" is different from "I agree with you". Also train yourself to avoid filling in what's not said. "If he said A that means B and B makes me angry". That kind of thinking tends to be marriage poison because he never said B but is still being punished for it. This stuff is hard and takes practice, don't be too hard on yourself, but if you catch yourself slipping up apologize for it in the moment -- I'm sorry, I meant to listen to you but I'm defending myself. Please explain how you feel again. That goes a long way.
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I’m really over H's attitude right now. As always, I could’ve done much better, but I’m simply over his bs today. We got into a disagreement earlier today which I’m not thrilled about, but it was still progress for me, because I dropped the topic early, before I got too heated and got into my all too familiar “never ending story” where I don’t let the argument go. This is what happened:
His truck is in the shop for the 5th time in the past few months since we bought it this summer. Since I work from home during the days, I don’t need to commute for work at this point. He works nights, so he takes my car to work. The arrangement works out well for the most part, although it’s been slightly inconvenient when I want to go out on the weekend or have to cancel or keep postponing something social. And I do understand, because it can be a pain in the neck not to have a car to get to work and I want to be there for him. But I sometimes have the sense that he knows I’m always more than here for whatever his needs are, that it doesn’t really concern him that I’m stuck home for the most part. It’s not something he’s said, but I guess I feel like I’m much more committed to his welfare overall than he is to mine right now, especially emotionally (one of the reasons I post here now, I suppose).
We had a nice holiday, we cooked together, spent a really nice time, and it was good. Still no affection aside from having fun together, but I’m trying to keep it light, give him his space and not bring it up. No arguments, bickering, etc.
So this morning we were discussing him going food shopping while I work today. He’ll need my car for the next few days and so this way I’ll have food in the house while he has my car. He also has to go to work earlier today for a meeting and then said he’ll maybe stop home before his later shift. His truck has been in the shop for a week and they want a lot of money to fix it, with no real resolution as to the final price yet. The last time they had it, it was there for 2 1/2 weeks. I suggested yesterday he talk them down a little, since we’ve given them a lot of money each time, and today he said he was going to stop by there and see if he could talk to them face to face. I probably said too much with the “just tell them you won’t do it for more than X”, and he said something like “why don’t you just write down what I should say and I’ll say that?”. I said “Sorry. Just trying to help, do what you want”. And I dropped it. He said he was concerned about money, due to the truck cost and rent coming up. I told him to just put it on our other card (my paychecks currently go to that one) and not to worry about it, just get some basics for food. He said he’d rather wait til tomorrow, and see what everything cost, and I said “there’s no food in the house for tonight though.” I must have pissed him off because he decided now he wasn’t going food shopping, and would find another way to work aside from my car. (When he decided to sleep outside in his truck months ago when this whole thing started, he insisted on taking the bus to work for weeks despite me offering to take him).
He then went on about “let’s keep it separate, I’ll get myself to work” and “I was such a fool, I should’ve known not to get sucked back into using your car again” and “now I’m gonna go get all my stuff out of it” and “... I won’t need to listen to anymore of you talking” etc. I asked him why he was doing this again. I told him I didn’t really understand why he was making this a federal case - we had a disagreement which I dropped. I said something he didn’t like about the mechanic, and he decided he wasn’t going food shopping, and now decided he would get himself to work, do it himself, etc etc.
When he came back inside the house, I said “when you make us separate like that, I really feel like I’m being punished”. He said he wasn’t punishing me, and that he was a stupid to get sucked back into using my car. I told him I have always been there for him and try to operate together as a team, but him by withdrawing things he had promised to he would do was hurtful and didn’t make sense, just because we had a disagreement. He told me I could use my own car to go food shopping after work, (which I will do, thank you!) - but he knows I have calls to make well into the night tonight so my time is limited (I work 2 jobs right now). I got upset and probably shouldn’t have brought up the R, but said that he was withholding everything for the past 3 months, love, affection, and now doing this ‘separate’ thing again. I told him that I’ve been there for whenever he needed something but that for the past 3 months, he’s been reluctant to even have a disagreement with me without punishing or withholding from me. He’s treating me like a roommate. To this he replied “Fine, then I’ll go food shopping, you only have 1/2 hour, what do you want me to get?”
I just declined that offer and let it go at that.
I’m getting really fed up with this. All this week I’ve been trying to figure out how we’re going to pay for this car again, rent and everything. I’m tired of being an afterthought to him. I’ve been trying to find one of my girlfriends to get away with me somewhere, just so I can remove myself from this silent insanity. I’m just over him right now. I’m over his bs attitude, his calling the shots, his punishing, his withholding, all of it. I’m over it!
I’m sure this post is full of mistakes I’ve made. But you know what? I really don’t care so much today. I need to do a lot more DBing and worrying about me. It’s hard though. I feel like in taking care of me better, I’ll be stranding him somehow. Why the hell shouldn’t he find his own way to work? Worry about how he’ll pay for this truck? He’s been mostly worried about himself anyway! I just don’t know yet what the honorable opposite is of what I’m doing. How to draw a line in the sand as to better boundaries (I’m learning that here though!) and how to be there for him without losing myself in the process? I’m just to the point of I’ve really had enough of this nonsense.
