I'm sorry Ad. I know this is tough stuff, but you seem to be holding you own!
Originally Posted By: adinva
We talked more about child support. I asked him if he knew what it was meant to include, and he said everything related to the child. I said what about sports equipment, braces, summer camp? Yes, yes, and yes, everything. I said, I do not know for sure either but we should both understand what it's intended to include. I had been told that it's calculated to include their basic necessities of life - food, clothing, shelter. It isn't intended to include sports equipment and summer camp. But I'll explore it more and so should he, so he understands what it is that he's paying for. He said, what does it matter...it's all I can afford, and it's all the court says I should pay.
I know this varies, but I have to pay child support plus provide insurance plus pay 50% of the out of pocket expense for medical. Braces are a bit tricky as you can argue over whether they are needed, so I'd get that specifically noted if you think it's going to be an issue. College is similar. It's going to be state dependent I think, but I'd get whatever you can included in the doc.
Outside of that, it sounds to me like your H is slanting most of this to his favor. I have found that most boiler plate documents tend to give the W a lot more benefit than the H, and this seems tilted in his favor, so definitely get your lawyer to provide some guidance.
I don't agree with the bit about repaying his mom and all that. If you two owe her money, you owe 50%, he owes 50%. The house equity is 50%/50%....talk to your attorney about when that clock stops. The cars should be divided based on value, not who drives what.
Thanks, SS. I'll look into that. I read the lido deck thread and am amazed at how you sound. I wish you all the best.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
He's avoiding telling the kids. We discussed the need to do it, and the words to use, Saturday morning. There were a few opportunities Saturday and Sunday, and I made sure he knew I was around and/or would come home from where I was when he wanted to have that talk.
There are details of child visitation that we realized he needs to give more thought to, but although he wanted to tell them when we had a signed sep agmt, on Saturday we discussed the fact that that could be awhile, and now that we have an actual document we are working on it seems like we can tell them what we do know for now.
I had given him a boundary when he gave me the sep agmt, that if he would not stay out all night then he could continue to stay here while we're negotiating the agreement, but if he needs to go out as if he's single already, he's presenting a confusing example for our kids and he needs to go ahead and move. So he has been coming home at night.
I just don't want to go through Christmas with this pretending-happy-family because it's all falling to me to create that presentation and it's difficult, painful, and not helping our marriage. It's enabling him to eat cake. If we get too much closer to the holidays I'm going to need to revisit with him the need to tell them NOW.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Adding more of our discussion on child visitation because I've been accused of shaming H, and that is true, a couple of times over the last 18 months I have said something intended to make him feel ashamed of himself. Whether he did or not I don't know. I've tried not to, as much as possible.
Originally Posted By: adinva
Child Visitation: I noted that the agreement said the husband shall have liberal and frequent visitation, to be no less than two (2) days per week. I said I just wanted to understand how he saw that in real terms, like, did he mean to take them every single weekend? I said I was glad to see he wanted them more than what I thought he'd ask for, two weekends a month. He said it was just what his L told him was standard, and it didn't matter to him whatever worked was ok, that sometimes the kids would be busy or have other plans and he just felt like he didn't control how much they'd be with him.
I said, it's a legal contract I'm signing that says I give them to you no less than 2 days a week. That is enforceable. I recognize that we'll want to be flexible and reasonable, but two days a week is pretty clear in here.
I said, I thought about it and think it could work really well if you take them Thursday through Sunday every two weeks. Then you have four straight days with them and still have half of the weekends on your own. But you'd need to get them to school and activities, and stuff, could you do that? H hadn't thought about it.
H said, well on some weekends they want to hang out with friends, and I said yes, so when you're parenting them, you'll drive them to their friends and be in charge of knowing where they are. It's part of being a parent to do that, so I think it's important that you're on for that sometimes like I am.
H said, I thought some people see their kids on like a Wednesday night. I wasn't thinking that the two days would be full days. I told him in my opinion two days per week doesn't mean you visit for a few minutes or a couple of hours to take them out to dinner and that's one of the days per week that you have them. I said, I'm not an expert in this either but I want both of us to really understand what we're signing before we get into it. I think the people with Wednesdays have an agreement that says something like "two weekends a month plus Wednesday evenings."
On the way back from Starbucks we went more into this. I said (for the second time in 18 months), "I'm prodding you on this because I'm honestly trying to get you to say you WANT something. You act like this is all up to boilerplate and schedules and what I say, and I'm trying to get you to say if you WANT to have a relationship with your kids or if you don't really. I mean it - if you are just overwhelmed with the responsibility and just don't like being a dad and really just want to visit them now and then say so, I won't tell them.
But if you WANT to be with them and parent them and drive them to school sometimes or whatever, I want to hear that. I don't want you to later say you have no relationship with your sons because I had them all the time or I got between you. Whatever you want I will get out of the way and do all I can to help them have the best relationship with you that you can.
I'm doing that for them. They need a dad in their life as much as possible. They need to know he wants them. They need to know he values them, if he does. I don't expect they're going to make this easy for him - they are teens and they're already acting mad at him. It's going to take work for all of us to convince them that he cares, if he does.
And if he doesn't, which he can either tell me or I can read from his actions, I hope to not set them up for disappointment by pushing H to take on more than he wants or is capable of.
We did talk about H's friend, who hasn't lived with his 15yo son since the boy was taken away by his mother at 8weeks. He has fought for custody and visitation and has his son, who lives out of state, for a few days at a time during school breaks and a couple of weeks in the summer.
He is Disney dad. He bought a boat to entertain his son, rents a beach house. Takes him paintballing, movies, ogles women with his son. He has never driven his son to school, has never worked on homework with him, has never sat with his son after a hard day or disappointment. When his son is with him and gets bratty, the dad gets mad and tells him he doesn't need to come at all if he's going to act like that.
I talked to H about this and asked H if he wants to come by and take his kids to dinner and drop them back off afterward, or have his kids live with him for a day. There's a difference. I'm not judging anyone else's custody agreements, I'm just trying to offer H more than what he thinks he's going to get.
By the way, we really don't talk about H's dad much, who left their home when H was 2 and his oldest brother was 14. H did visit his dad regularly but H says his dad was not a good person and so there are no correlations between their relationship and what's going to happen with our kids. In the last 20 years I've never met H's dad, they haven't spoken, and we only heard some news about him once at a family gathering about 15 years ago.
This guy, H's dad, is such a piece of work that he named his second first born son the same name, first middle and last, as his first first born son.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I've been thinking about your sitch quite a bit and I have to say that I'm angry about H's attitude toward the kids. He seems to be striving toward the minimum, which you've picked up on and have been pushing him to face, which I think is a good strategy on your part.
It seems wrong to me that when they turn 18, he can walk away without any commitment for health insurance, college support, or enough spousal support to keep a roof over their heads. I can understand that he might be worried about what he can afford, and he might be worried about getting locked into a contract that leaves him less than what he needs to live, but he could say those things right? He could say that although the agreement he is proposing is fairly barebones, that he recognizes that he has an obligation to support things like sports and college, and that he will make his best effort to do so.
My W's parents divorced while she was in college (her mother cheated and asked for divorce). Her father was remarried within about 18 months to a woman about 10 years younger. They then proceeded to adopt two boys, and in many ways he just stopped being a father to his two girls from his first marriage. He was investing in his second family's college funds before considering helping his youngest daughter who was struggling financially day to day. There was a very clear "you're on your own" message.
You can argue that no one is "entitled" to a college education, but if providing that is something that's been important to both of you in your marriage, then it seems particularly crappy to walk away leaving $6K in cash for two college tuitions and no commitment to provide anything else.
Ad, do the terms of the separation agreement automatically roll forward into a divorce settlement, or is it only a bridging agreement from the beginning of separation until divorce?
Has your lawyer reviewed your sitch? What did he or she say about the proposal and about your options? If I were in your shoes I would just want the house straight up without a buy-out, you assume the mortgage, and he pays child support, some level of spousal support, provides health insurance to you for some period and for the kids until they are 26 or until they have coverage through an employer, and some commitment for support of tuition and living expenses through college. Sure, that's going to be hard on him and expensive, but this is his choice. You've made it clear that he can always choose door number two and work on his marriage.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks Acc. I have to come up with $125K to buy out his equity, so him walking away from it is not going to happen. I do plan to use his equity as a relatively painless way for him to give me concessions in exchange for things he needs.
I'm working to continue being someone he might want to work on a marriage with, so I'm handling the agreement as low-key as I can.
College was always a given in our marriage, but now that it's approaching and we just don't have a lot of savings, it was becoming a source of anxiety to H as to how he would pay for it. When we talked this week it was more like maybe they don't need college. If we stayed married we'd have these conversations, so it's hard for both of us to try to lock him into something five years down the road. He thinks I'm trying to lock him into something he won't be able to afford, and I'm concerned too. H even brought up the idea that some kids emancipate themselves in order to qualify for more financial aid.
I don't know if the separation agreement rolls into the final divorce terms but I believe so. I think you could file for D here without the separation agreement, but you'd have to have one by the time your D is finalized. We're saving time and money getting it done first. My L thought it was sensible, but he did not understand H's insistence on getting one signed before he'd move out.
I wonder if your W's dad resented the idea of giving anything to his first wife's daughters because it felt like giving something to his first wife, or helping her in some way. If he remained bitter about being cheated on it's possible he transferred that onto his daughters. It must have been horrible for your W to be cast aside like that for her dad's new family.
My sister had three girls and after they divorced her H remarried and had his dream come true, a son. Now the son gets whatever and he chintzes on what he gives toward his daughters.
I would expect, and told H so, that nearly a decade from now he's going to have different priorities. I want to put our terms down as clearly and completely now so that we're not coming back 10 years from now asking for something he's no longer willing to give.
H's attitude makes me angry too, and sad for our kids. He was such a loving and fun dad when they were little. Now that they're not little copies of him he seems to have lost interest. He always did joke/complain about how much they were going to cost him though. If he just doesn't want to deal with them I'm not sure he'll be doing them any favors by agreeing to more time together.
My L has not seen the separation agreement. I wanted one round directly with H, then one round with the financial planner before I gave it to L because I expected there to be significant changes coming out of the first two rounds.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I wonder if your W's dad resented the idea of giving anything to his first wife's daughters because it felt like giving something to his first wife, or helping her in some way. If he remained bitter about being cheated on it's possible he transferred that onto his daughters. It must have been horrible for your W to be cast aside like that for her dad's new family.
I think it was really driven by the fact that he had a new family he lived with 24x7 that were always front and center, and I'm sure his second wife wasn't going out of her way to make sure he was spending money on his daughters from his first marriage. I don't think it was a transfer of bitterness more just shifted priority and out of sight out of mind. It was horrible for W and even worse for her younger sister who is still in therapy over it. W had a nervous breakdown at the time. The impact was so profound that I was absolutely convinced that she would value marriage and intact family and therefore would not cheat or seek to divorce me without serious problems on my part. I was wrong about that and ironically so no parallel to the fact that her mother had cheated and asked for divorce.
WRT the lawyer, I was thinking lawyer first because they will take the most extreme position in your favor or at least advise you on the possible range for each parameter. They are also most likely to make the most significant changes to structure and meaning. I would want to see where that leads first so that you don't spend time with the financial planner and negotiating with H only to do it all over again if something is seriously amiss. I would stake out the opposite pole then negotiate toward the center rather than trying to inch H away from his position. That's how they do it on "Pawn Stars" -- immediately offer half of what the other person wants and then move away from that slowly.
You don't have to antagonize him if you have a dramatically different ask, you can do it respectfully. "I've seen your proposal, here is what I would like to see, let's try to meet somewhere in the middle." I would of course try to be fair but I also wouldn't want to give an inch more than I had to.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks Acc. Love pawn stars! We're getting closer to telling kids.
I was heading to hot yoga at 8 and H said do you want to tell the kids tonight? I said I needed a little more notice as I was on my way out and S14 wasn't home; I wouldn't be home until 10:30. Could we tell them after school tomorrow? H said ok.
Hot yoga felt good to be back in. It was hard because I've gained some weight, which I'm learning is a common side effect of longterm use of my A/D paxil. It worked great for me but I need to get my fitness back. I'm going to try tapering off and seeking something different to try.
I had a little chat with H today about talking to me. I found out through friends that he was P.O.'d at me for getting his car muddy when he lent it to me. The H of our friends ran into my H at the car wash where my H confided to him that it was a mess because I had been driving it and he couldn't be seen in it like this. Word got back to me, so when I borrowed it again I washed it and filled the tank before I gave it back.
I didn't get any recognition of that at the time, which was fine. I did it more for me, for practice in being more anticipative of thoughtful things I can do. And also because NOW I knew he would want it done.
That was about a week ago. Today I asked h if he'd noticed his car was clean when I gave it back to him.
He said oh, yeah. I told him, you know, you could have told me you'd like it cleaned and I would have done it. But I don't read minds. It would be much more clear and easier for you probably if you tell me instead of our neighbors.
He said oh, ok, and vanished from the room. I'm learning this for me as much as for him.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Feeling sick to my stomach with worry over telling the kids today.
If I keep myself distracted or take some deep breaths, I can get past the bad moment without actually starting to cry.
I had this idea playing in my head of asking H one more time, are you SURE you want this? And Why? I've found that I have forgiveness in me for every hurt I've felt from him over the past 20+ years, but I don't know how I'll be able to forgive him for hurting our kids.
I know they will be as fine as possible. I know this isn't as bad as cutting off their limbs or throwing them into the streets. But I just am not convinced it is necessary to do this.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
