Indeed. But I think I've adequately explained here what I mean when I'm talking about it in my thread.
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The above, where you are talking with your Daughters about their conversations with their Mother....
Why are you in the middle of that ?
W hasn't talked to the kids about this at all and that's been frustrating for D16 and S9 (D18 doesn't want to talk as I mentioned before). D16 and S9 have needed a lot of support and reassurance. I've given it to them, but they really could use it from W as well. D16 has expressed frustration that W doesn't listen to her, that's why I had the above conversation with her. Just to let her know that W does listen and takes it seriously.
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There are two sides to every story. Yours and theirs, and usually, somewhere in the middle is where the real truth lies...
All W has ever told anyone (that I know of) is that she's not happy and she's not sure why and that she's confused. And that's all I've conveyed to anyone about W. I have consistently stood up for her and told family and friends that she is a great person (and I truly do believe that) and a wonderful mother and that regardless of what happens I will still believe that. I'm thankful that W hasn't gone monster like so many of the stories I've read on the MLC forum because it would be particularly difficult to hear her say horrible things about me, but she really hasn't. She's been quite supportive in fact.
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What were your wife's complaints about you ????
My W's complaints and my 180's are well-documented throughout my 2 threads. I'm not going to rehash that because W has stated several times that I've changed, that I've reversed every complaint she had and that I am not the problem. She repeated this just a week ago. The problem according to her as I've stated over and over again in both threads is that she doesn't "want to try". I don't come here to lie, if you knew me you'd know I'm a straight-up honest guy. I have no secrets, no ulterior motives. I'm not going to sit here and tell you my W said these things because I want to pump up my ego or whatever. I tell you these things because it highlights the confused mindset of the WAS. The problems are "fixed" but she doesn't want to "try" at the R. At least, not right now. That's the bottom line.
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It seems as if you have planned this whole thing out on how it should work, and end.
No plan, I've felt from the beginning like I'm just along for the ride.
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I see a superiority in your words when you type about her, and how your choices are waaaaay better than hers.
I'm really perplexed by this, not sure what you might be referring to.
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And that she should be begging you, to come back.
Why do you think that, because I've stated that I don't want to just throw the door open to her? I certainly don't expect her to beg to come back, but if she ever does consider reconciling I'm not just going to lay out the red carpet either. A lot of work needs to be done to rebuild the R first.
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I see a pattern of trying to fix HER problems, with YOUR solutions. And that makes her opinions pretty small, if that is the case.
Go back to be beginning and you'll see I've always taken her comments VERY seriously. I worked like a maniac to reverse every complaint she had. The only "solution" I've tried to apply is to change myself and to give her time and space.
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Where is the sympathy for what SHE might be going through ?
I posted this yesterday in eyesopen's thread:
"I knew anger was one of the phases of grief, so I expected to be angry at some point. But it never did happen. I never did feel anger towards my W, maybe because I knew she was hurting and suffering too. I think it's easy for the LBS to assume that everything is great for the WAS, but that's rarely the case. They're in great pain too."
There are two sides to every story. Yours and theirs, and usually, somewhere in the middle is where the real truth lies...
All W has ever told anyone (that I know of) is that she's not happy and she's not sure why and that she's confused. And that's all I've conveyed to anyone about W. I have consistently stood up for her and told family and friends that she is a great person (and I truly do believe that) and a wonderful mother and that regardless of what happens I will still believe that. I'm thankful that W hasn't gone monster like so many of the stories I've read on the MLC forum because it would be particularly difficult to hear her say horrible things about me, but she really hasn't. She's been quite supportive in fact.
I think you missed my point. I'm referring to, that all we read , is your side.....
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
What were your wife's complaints about you ????
My W's complaints and my 180's are well-documented throughout my 2 threads. I'm not going to rehash that because W has stated several times that I've changed, that I've reversed every complaint she had and that I am not the problem. She repeated this just a week ago. The problem according to her as I've stated over and over again in both threads is that she doesn't "want to try". I don't come here to lie, if you knew me you'd know I'm a straight-up honest guy. I have no secrets, no ulterior motives. I'm not going to sit here and tell you my W said these things because I want to pump up my ego or whatever. I tell you these things because it highlights the confused mindset of the WAS. The problems are "fixed" but she doesn't want to "try" at the R. At least, not right now. That's the bottom line.
Well, I'm sorry to ask you to paraphrase a bit for me. You have sprinkled in some of her complaints. Mostly it was because you were absent, complained a lot, and were angry/yelled quite often.
????
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
It seems as if you have planned this whole thing out on how it should work, and end.
No plan, I've felt from the beginning like I'm just along for the ride.
I think that you aren't just along for the ride...and that you want to be the driver...
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
I see a superiority in your words when you type about her, and how your choices are waaaaay better than hers.
I'm really perplexed by this, not sure what you might be referring to.
Let me remind you of some of your own words here....
Originally Posted By: AS on 8/15
Took over all household chores from W- I do all the laundry, the dishes, the housekeeping and grocery shopping (W goes with me on the shopping trips). I’ve kept the house cleaner than she ever did and I get the laundry done in one day whereas she was never done, she did it constantly all week long.
Originally Posted By: AS on 8/22
is it seems like she's been quite happy for as long as I can remember. No crying, no wierd moments of sitting in the corner pouting, nothing. When I saw she was "doing the laundry", sometimes I wouldn't see my clothes for weeks, LOL! It took her forever! Since I started doing it the whole thing gets done every Friday. She's throw a load in and take off to get her nails done with the girls and it would sit there for hours before going on the dryer. So I hope you're not getting the impression that she was slaving over a hot stove or iron all day while I was partying Speaking of ironing, she's never touched that, I do it all (it's mostly my clothes anyway).
Originally Posted By: AS 8-22-12
I think this is the problem exactly. My wife has NEVER been good at communicating, even back when we were dating. I have to draw information out of her a piece at a time. If we get in the car and I don't say anything we travel in near silence, so I usually talk just to break up the silence. Her responses are usually pretty brief. It's always been this way. I have no doubt whatever resentment she is harboring is locked up in some vault in her and it's now boiling over, but still she won't talk about it, not to me and not to the counselor.
Originally Posted By: AS on 9/21
I moved the bigger stuff into the garage so she wouldn't have to drag it through the house, and when I was done I looked around and thought "wow, the house looks so much cleaner and uncluttered now", LOL! I took down all pictures of her (there weren't that many anyway) and I'm getting really comfortable with the idea of her being gone. I'm enjoying the heck out of doing stuff with just me and the kids.
Originally Posted By: AS 11-13-12
I don't think DB'ing is about tricks at all. If done properly, you transform yourself. I have done that, and I am better for it. I would LOVE to see my W go through a similar transformation. There are many 180's that she needs to do, but she has no incentive to do them because she doesn't think there's anything wrong with herself. Yes I would be able to recognize her DB'ing, but knowing what I know about DB'ing and how much work it is, she would gain my respect, admiration and love for putting forth that kind of effort to try and earn me back.
You are standing on a soapbox, saying everything that you are doing correctly now....after 20? years of poor behavior and choices...
So the last four months is supposed to make up for that?
...interesting...
Originally Posted By: AS 11-26-12
W told me that it was actually D16 that was initiating the conversations with her. D16 woke her up at 4 am telling her she wanted to talk about it because she couldn’t sleep. That’s when she asked her the questions about why she didn’t love my anymore. W admitted she was half asleep and didn't really remember much of the convo. So brace yourselves, because I dropped the D bomb on my W. I told her that I told D16 we would sit down after the first of the year and work out the D, and I also told her how I had explained to D16 that the M was over and there was no hope of reconciliation. W said “you told her that tonight?” I said “yes”. Then I told her “This is very hard on the kids, anyone who tells you that kids will be fine in something like this doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I went through it and you know I’ve always said it was the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life right up until this. It will affect them deeply, and affect them for life. But what is important is that you are happy, and that we continue to support the kids as best we can and help them through this. You are happy, right?”
Dropped the bomb ?
Really?
Because your choice is different than what hers is right now ?
Originally Posted By: AS 12-4-12
So in a way dropping the rope is a win-win, because if we well and truly do drop the rope then if the WAS returns we're in a better position to negotiate reconciliation terms (since our heart isn't invested anymore), and if they don't return then we're moving on anyway. That said, I am giving it more time because my W requested that, but I'm not going to just hang myself out there forever.
You make it sound as if you are done with your own work, and you are just waiting for her to see how great you have become...
Like I said above....four months will not erase the past 20 years...
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
And that she should be begging you, to come back.
Why do you think that, because I've stated that I don't want to just throw the door open to her? I certainly don't expect her to beg to come back, but if she ever does consider reconciling I'm not just going to lay out the red carpet either. A lot of work needs to be done to rebuild the R first.
No, just a figure of speech around here. It ties into what I said above about the last four months...
Sorry if I was unclear...
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
I see a pattern of trying to fix HER problems, with YOUR solutions. And that makes her opinions pretty small, if that is the case.
Go back to be beginning and you'll see I've always taken her comments VERY seriously. I worked like a maniac to reverse every complaint she had. The only "solution" I've tried to apply is to change myself and to give her time and space.
This...
Originally Posted By: AS on 8/22
Indeed, I actually started out posting on an MLC forum when this first started. She does match some of the characteristics of MLC- she has expressed a desire to artistically express herself in some way and get out of the "rut" she's in. I actually took her to an art class (where you paint a painting in 3 hours) a couple of weeks ago and she went to a photography class last weekend, I invited her to a pottery throwing class but she thought it would be too "messy". Still, she's not even considering staying.
I'm not sure what you meant by this post...
Did she ask to do those things ?
And...
Originally Posted By: AS 9-23-12
I think I've mentioned upthread that she's terrible at communicating which I think is another big issue. I've discussed this with her many times in the past, I have to really work to draw any info out of her, especially when it comes to her thoughts and feelings. I'm certainly not saying I have no faults in our M, I do. And I've worked hard to change them. But I think her inability to communicate has a lot to do with her unhappiness. She simply cannot voice any issues great or small that make her unhappy, so there's no chance of changing them. She told me things at BD that she has never even mentioned in passing before, and I told her my one great regret in this is she never gave me a chance to change these things.
Yet, that is only part of what I meant by this.
You are the one here, and you are the one who is starting to DB
You are starting to see how internal reflection can play a part in the revitalization of ones self. And there is a part of you,(and most of us that have posted here, present and in the past) that haven't thought that if only our spouses would read the book, or see things the way I do, then we could all just be happy....
But then again, your wife DID read the book.....right?
Originally Posted By: AS
Originally Posted By: M1
Where is the sympathy for what SHE might be going through ?
I posted this yesterday in eyesopen's thread:
"I knew anger was one of the phases of grief, so I expected to be angry at some point. But it never did happen. I never did feel anger towards my W, maybe because I knew she was hurting and suffering too. I think it's easy for the LBS to assume that everything is great for the WAS, but that's rarely the case. They're in great pain too."
Yesterday....
What about the past 20+ years ?
I know that you cannot change the past, and I don't expect you too....
Where was that sympathy when you had decided that YOU had had enough, after a couple months?
From the picture you have painted ( being absent, and controlling) , your wife carried this marriage on her back for 20 years, and within the matter of months, you have had enough, and are ONLY waiting around because she asked....
I would think that she deserved way more than that from you....
What happened to love , honor, and cherish ?
Was that only when things are all puppy dogs and rainbows ?
Or is it meant for better AND worse, and digging in through the worse, to see what you are made of inside.?
What do your vows mean to you ?
Look AS....
I don't want to stay here and bash you, and I'm fairly certain that you don't want me to.
I had a few questions that I wanted you to think about. And the answers weren't for me anyway, they were for you.
And obviously, I hit a nerve. You are more than welcome to dismiss anything that I say, although I have found, at least for me, that the hard questions, and the ones that sting the most, are the ones worth answering.
AS, we all need a wake-up call occasionally. I know I have when I thought I had this by the tail, only to see that I was continuing my same bad habits, under the surface.
On the surface, I looked great but I was still controlling, still playing victim, still not taking my H's complaints seriously enough. Realizing this took me to a dark place where I had to face the music and own up to how I'd hurt another person, a person I had promised to love, honor and cherish. That his complaints weren't trivial or easily solved but important enough TO HIM to end our M.
Once I let those walls of pride, defensiveness, fear come down, I could begin to rebuild.
Read Mach's post again, try not to be defensive. It's usually the posts that bring up that defensive stance that hit us in the place we need to be hit.
Dig deep.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
AS listen to what Mach and Bugsy ae saying. You are in good hands with them.
I found this on JS FB page good stuff.
Letting Go Author unknown
To "let go" does not mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else.
To "let go" is not to cut myself off, it's the realization I can't control another.
To "let go" is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences.
To "let go" is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands. ... To "let go" is not to try to change or blame another, it's to make the most of myself.
To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about.
To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive.
To "let go" is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being.
To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their own destinies.
To "let go" is not to be protective, it's to permit another to face reality.
To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept.
To "let go" it not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out my own shortcomings, and correct them.
To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires but to take each day as it comes, and cherish myself in it.
To "let go" is not to criticize and regulate anybody but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To "let go" is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future.
To "let go" is to fear less, and love more.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
I hate to admit this but as i was reading mach1's post it was also hitting me in so many ways. It truly is a wake up call and I feel I have to look in the mirror once again.
AS, I'm rooting for you man I really am. You have helped and given a lot of time to the posters here including my sitch, I really appreciate all your efforts. Take a look again at Mach 1's post there's a lot of good stuff in it.
Take care, Newman
me40; W43 M18; T~20 D18; S13 & S3 bomb 5/9/11 EA busted 4/30/12; 9/4/12; 4/29/13; 6/10/13 same OM
Separated 4/1/14
"Even a flicker of light will shine through darkness-12/25/2012"....better days ahead.
I think you missed my point. I'm referring to, that all we read , is your side.....
Obviously, unless W decides to come here and start posting.
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Well, I'm sorry to ask you to paraphrase a bit for me. You have sprinkled in some of her complaints. Mostly it was because you were absent, complained a lot, and were angry/yelled quite often.
Not absent. Mostly it was that I complained a lot (true) and that I watched too much TV (true) and didn't help enough around the house (somewhat true, I've always done all the outdoor work while she did most of the indoor stuff). Those are all fairly recent things, more below.
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I think that you aren't just along for the ride...and that you want to be the driver...
Sure I do, who doesn't want to control their own destiny? I doubt anyone here likes or enjoys having their life turned upside down by someone else. And I AM controlling my destiny now. But you imply that I'm trying to drive W's destiny and that is completely false.
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You are standing on a soapbox, saying everything that you are doing correctly now....after 20? years of poor behavior and choices...
We've been married for 20 years, but we owned a home together for years before we got married. And we were very happy together for most of that. I went into depression about 3 years ago and never knew it. IC helped me to understand what happened and how I had withdrawn, and I can see it clearly now but couldn't then. That's when the complaining and TV watching started. I don't think it's fair to characterize depression as a choice, there are a lot of people out there mired in depression that would just love to choose to emerge from it. Believe me, W never would have stood for 25 years of poor behavior.
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So the last four months is supposed to make up for that?
It's been 6 months. And I don't understand what you mean by "make up for it". If you mean "wipe the slate clean" then no, I've never asked W for that and don't expect it. What I've said to W from shortly after BD is that neither of us wants to go back to the old R but that we could build a new R going forward.
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You make it sound as if you are done with your own work, and you are just waiting for her to see how great you have become...
LOL! No, if you go back and read a little closer you'll see I was done and ready to file for D in January. This wasn't a tactic to win her back. I've seen no indications from her that she had any change of heart at all and she seemed quite happy in her new sitch. So I was done and ready to move on. And my feelings for W have changed substantially since she left. Anyway, when I talked to her about sitting down in January to work out the D terms, much to my surprise she said that SHE wasn't ready for that, that she is still confused and doesn't know what she wants. So I agreed to postpone D talk until she had some more time to think things through.
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Like I said above....four months will not erase the past 20 years...
It's 6 months and 3 years, but again, who said anything about erasing things? Like Michele says in DR, you can forgive, but that doesn't mean the same thing as forgetting. This isn't about erasing anything, it's about learning and moving forward.
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Originally Posted By: AS on 8/22
Indeed, I actually started out posting on an MLC forum when this first started. She does match some of the characteristics of MLC- she has expressed a desire to artistically express herself in some way and get out of the "rut" she's in. I actually took her to an art class (where you paint a painting in 3 hours) a couple of weeks ago and she went to a photography class last weekend, I invited her to a pottery throwing class but she thought it would be too "messy". Still, she's not even considering staying.
I'm not sure what you meant by this post...
Me either. I don't even remember posting that. 08-22, that is around the time I had that really bad bout of anxiety, didn't get any sleep and went on the A/D's. I haven't ever gone back and read my old posts, but I've struggled many times throughout this process and probably posted some things that don't make clear sense.
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And there is a part of you,(and most of us that have posted here, present and in the past) that haven't thought that if only our spouses would read the book, or see things the way I do, then we could all just be happy....
No, there is no part of me that thinks that. I think early on I thought that and in fact I think early on that I mentioned that I sent W a chapter from the book. But no, I don't think that now at all. As far as being "happy", that isn't the goal. If you haven't read the Happiness Trap then I highly recommend it, happiness is an emotion, not a goal.
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But then again, your wife DID read the book.....right?
My W isn't a reader. I did find a copy of DB in with some other old books in stuff she left behind, but I don't know if it was a gift or something she bought or what. It had a receipt in it, I posted the date earlier, I can't remember now but it was old. 10+ years. And the binding doesn't look like the book was opened. So she probably did not read it.
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Where is the sympathy for what SHE might be going through ?
I posted this yesterday in eyesopen's thread:
"I knew anger was one of the phases of grief, so I expected to be angry at some point. But it never did happen. I never did feel anger towards my W, maybe because I knew she was hurting and suffering too. I think it's easy for the LBS to assume that everything is great for the WAS, but that's rarely the case. They're in great pain too."
Yesterday....
What about the past 20+ years ?
You asked where the sympathy is for what she's going through, implying that I have none. I clearly do as evidenced by the post I made the day before you asked the question. So now you want to change the parameters of the question. I'm not here to post about my previous 25 years with W, I simply don't have the time to post that rich tapestry we've shared together. It's been a truly amazing journey. I take offense to your implication that my W has been suffering for my entire marriage. I've never said that and she has never said that. I promise you, she is strong-willed enough that she would not have stayed with me for that long if she was unhappy.
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Where was that sympathy when you had decided that YOU had had enough, after a couple months?
It's been 6 months, not a couple. And it's been the most difficult 6 months of my entire life. The biggest part of the struggle now is just not knowing where it's going. I'm ready to put it behind me and move on. That doesn't mean I'm not symathetic to W's struggles, once she told me she was still struggling I backed down from my plans to move on.
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From the picture you have painted ( being absent, and controlling) , your wife carried this marriage on her back for 20 years, and within the matter of months, you have had enough, and are ONLY waiting around because she asked....
Not absent. I've never been absent. And no, W never carried the M. She'd even tell you I was a fantastic father and husband except when I was in the depression.
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Was that only when things are all puppy dogs and rainbows ?
Please refrain from smarta$$ comments.
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What do your vows mean to you ?
Do you mean the ones we said when we were married? Those don't really mean anything to me. It's just garbage young kids recite to each other without even knowing the meaning. What does mean something to me is that W and I stood together for 25 years through thick and thin, birthed and raised 3 amazing children and built a rich, amazing life together. That's what's worth standing for and is why I've been standing these 6 months.
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I don't want to stay here and bash you, and I'm fairly certain that you don't want me to.
You are quite right, and it's not the content of your posts, it's the holier-than-thou attitude. And perhaps you misunderstand, but I don't journal because I want people like you going over every single word to nitpick it. In fact I'm not looking for feedback at all. I just journal to get things off my chest. It's a release for me, I do it and then never read it again. Maybe someday I will go back and read it, I don't know.
Read Mach's post again, try not to be defensive. It's usually the posts that bring up that defensive stance that hit us in the place we need to be hit.
I'm not being defensive, I'm answering his questions. I think that you and Mach think you're offering 2x4's but you're really not, you're just misinterpreting things and putting your own spin on it and launching attacks on me as a person rather than trying to troubleshoot my sitch. As I said to Mach I just journal here to get things off my chest. I'm not really looking for anyone to nitpick it all and beat me up over it. You're welcome to read, but I kindly ask that the two of you quit posting to my threads. I'm going to open a new one since this is over 100 posts, please don't post to it. Thank you!
