Oh Bruce, just when I think I've gotten through to you.....SIGH
Originally Posted By: Big Bruce
Bonjour, I think all of you have a point with the nappies changing thing. Next time, which is this afternoon, I will pretend I want to change him, to see her reaction, and to see if she is willing to show me how. Forget the pretense. Tell her you need to know how b/c YOU DO.
After all, I have two hands, and if the court trusts me with looking after him every other week, I will have to do it several times anyway.
Exactly our point.
Thanks for complimenting my English, but I know it is far from good. I am from Nice, South east France, the French Riviera for those who know it. Never lived in North America, (or Britain for that matter). I'm an engineer so I guess I had to study harder and longer than others, that's all.
With my son, I already read one on one, and we play cars together too. Surely my W must've noticed. I don't have the possibility to put him down for naps as he's awake during my visits which happen during the day. Back in France, when my wife was tired and sulky, I, being an extremely patient man, left her alone, to not annoy her more than she already was. See, I always sought peace. You don't notice that your "seeking peace" ALSO meant doing nothing kind for her? It meant you ignored her when she probably needed you more OR maybe she wanted an apology. Who knows? But your "peace seeking" was simply easier for you and it did NOT help your situation.
But what bugged me most, is that she was always too tired for, well you know what, but never too tired to take care of the baby! That's when the sex drive of most women plunges for months and up til she gets full hours of sleep AND her relationship resumes AND She is not nursing.. my guess is YOU were the one sulking. You sound that way.
Honestly I wish you knew how immature you sound to a woman who has had a child but had a helpful husband...even I noticed a loss of sex drive for most of the months I nursed, which is a natural hormonal reaction.
But we still made love bc I love my h and he was so nurturing to me at that time...it's not all about libido. So HOW DID YOU ttreat her when you felt rejected? I asked this before...
And the reason why I didn't budge from bed, is because she was breast-feeding him, so, there, not much I could do. And besides, I had to work the next day.
Oh Bruce, READ MY POST TO YOU AGAIN...I just told you that you could have gotten the baby for her, changed him and THEN given him to her to nurse-- LIKE MY HUSBAND did...
and he was in medical training full time so YES HE worked too...and that summer I was off of law school. You could ahd should have done more.
Til you see at least that, you're just going in circles pretending. THis is all a tactical game to you.
Of course if I knew before she would take it so badly, I would have jumped before her, and gotten my eyes wide open, and changed the diapers and all... too late I guess now. You don't see ANY OTHER reason to regret not being involved OTHER than the fact that now you've lost her? Seriously? Think about HER feelings...
Now when it's minus 20C, I call it lovely weather, when she's wearing the most ordinary jumper it becomes a fine sweater, and when her hair is all over the place she looks sharp.[b]-->Thanks to you all, I'm on the right track now. [/b]
sigh...
so you think you are sacfricing by lying about how great she is or the place is
b/c it's a game to win. Do you want HER back, or do you simply not want to lose at this?
Bruce, here is a letter from a WAW who wrote to a man she did not know. The man felt that HIS WAW should return b/c he had changed. But the WAW who wrote this, wanted him to know how HIS WAW probably felt...
b/c even if your changes are real and I AM NOT Sure they are, here is what you need to hear from a woman's view...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.-
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run. Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell. ____________
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I think I get it now... Seriously. I think I understand.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
First of all, at my yesterday's visit, my W was acting unusually nice. Normally, I only get one visit on week-ends, but we missed the one on Thursdays, so I had another one today. At the end of today's visit, W says : I drop the divorce if you drop the counter-petition
Because I was putting my son in the back seat, I said I couldn't answer just like that and went to the passenger seat. Then I said that I loved my son, and wanted to bond with him, teach him French, change his diapers, get involved in his life, etc.. she replied she thought I was ok with the schedules for the visits. (exactly like 25yearsmic said!) I said the only reason I delayed pushing sooner was because I knew our son was in good hands because she was a terrific mom.
Also she said something about working things slowly between us, but I wasn't paying attention, I mean my mind was spinning at 200 mph. I said I needed time.
Then she said : is it yes or no ?
I said, it is yes, (of course, I want to avoid D), but if she wanted to go to a counselor, that'd be a good time. She said she'd think about it.
Now, what do you think about it?
- Sincere? - Tactic to win time till June when she can apply for D, and even possibly play the card of the "why break the pattern for the child so give it to me 100%" - Just fear of losing as soon as next week 50% of her son?
And most importantly, how do I play it now? Ask for more visits? Not ask anything? Hint for her to go to counselling? Not hint anything? Suggest she moved to my place, or too early? Ask her out one evening? Ask her if she wants to come watch a movie at home, or is this too pushy too fast?
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
just focus on getting more time with your son. That will protect you legally if this is a "ploy" on her part to solidify the present visitation
and will show that you are sincere in wanting that time with him, and not just using it as leverage against her for the divorce.
I don't know that she wants a reconciliation yet, so much as possibly slowing down the choice to divorce...
so I would not suggest a date yet, and I'd think you're nuts if you want to suggest she move in with you now...
If you rush this you can blow it. There's a huge downside to going too fast.
In my opinion one big reason marriages in trouble fail, is b/c they get fearful of divorce & do a false reconciliation, in which they don't make core changes so they revert to their old ways within a few weeks of "reconciling" and Bruce, you are not ready to be the man you need to be yet.
You need to know HOW to lovingly, respectfully treat her over time, consistently, in a new better way. That takes time and practice. NO more snide remarks even just to yourself, b/c they show...no more condescending, no more whining about living near her hometown and family who are dear to her. And you must form a better relationship with her family, and fast...
If you take your time and rebuild this from the foundation up, I see no downside. So slow down.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
it's hard for me to know what to make of things b/c you didn't pay attention to her.... I know you were in a reaction mode, but you must listen better. Seriously...
Also, remember for now, it's about time with your son & showing her that you are a good father...until I know what else she said, I can't assess much more
except SHE SAID the words "working things between you slowly", correct?
IF SO, that's what you need to do.
Let her take the lead on your time, as a couple.
But you make sure to have your father time increased. ... without expecting more from her for now.
Go ahead and ask her to teach you how to do the diapers too. Let her teach you that, and be humble about it, but good humored and maybe afterwards, you can thank her for all the ones she has changed...happily.
And then, as she sees that you have had an awakening, we can hope her heart softens.
I think mine would.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Just take things slowly and continue to improve yourself. I mean, come on, 2 years and you've never changed a diaper? I can see why your W didn't trust you with him alone.
Continue to build the trust in her....SLOWLY.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Salut! After thinking, I guess you're right. Rushing things like asking her out for dinner or even suggesting that she moved in with me would show too much clingliness, and that's a turn off.
So, how about an email saying that I accept the deal only because I want to save M, but reaffirming that I want to be involved in my son's life and suggesting an increase visit frequency? I can also ask that at my next visit, thursday, she show me how to change a diaper. Which I want to learn anyway.
As for being the man I need to be, no worries, I learnt my lesson big time (it's been 6 months now, so I had time to think about all the situations were I acted selfish and disrespectful, and regret it, and be ashamed of it, and want to change my ways).
In a sense, her bargain keeps things exactly as they are (visits for me, and possibility of divorce in her hands...). What would be a good time frame to be as bold as suggesting to go out together? (not that I want to "test" her sincerity...)
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
How about you set a deadline for 3 years from now (sooner if she initiates but only to the extent that she initiates). In three years from now, if she hasn't shown any interest in recreating a friendship and closer relationship with you, sure, ask her out on a date.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Salut! After thinking, I guess you're right. Rushing things like asking her out for dinner or even suggesting that she moved in with me would show too much clingliness, and that's a turn off. So, how about an email saying that I accept the deal only because I want to save M, but say nothing of it until if and when she brings it up again. But for now, get more time with your son b/c you need it and tell her you want to learn how to be a father to him, one on one b/c you know your visits won't always be "supervised" and therefore you'd like some advice from her on the basics. Apologize for not knowing them already but you have had an awakening and this basic stuff is your way of taking on the responsibility you ought to have had before. NOTHING is to be asked of her at this time, except parenting help...stress your fathering interests and let that soften her heart... No expectations of marriage or reconciling yet...
don't be so obvious that your real agenda is getting HER back b/c it may not work.
But you cannot afford to allow the present visitation to remain OR IT'LL look as if you are fine with seeing him a few hours a week and only used the court petition to blackmail her...
Do YOU WANT more time with him even if it's not with her? That's the real question...you posted elsewhere that you think you won't be as attractive on the market as a man with a child.
That's what you said...so I posed the question to you that maybe you could end your parental rights. Sure, you'll lose your wife and son but hey, if you want to be back on the market as a totally free man, that's the way to do it.
Naturally a lot of women will be turned OFF by a man who abandons his only child so he can feel freer to date...and
I hope you won't give your son up, but sometimes I am not sure what you goals are here.
Is it ALL about getting your wife back? And if you did, would you really continue to help with him?
reaffirming that I want to be involved in my son's life and suggesting an increase visit frequency?
"Suggesting?" NO, not a "suggestion" but a "respectful earnest request" that can become a demand if she's not agreeable.
Make sure you are CLEAR that you want/need more time with him. Period.
If she won't budge then you DO have to pursue visitation rights in court. I think you can make it clear and kind and loving and not escalate things BUT hey, she HAS to relent ---or go to court--- at which point you will get more time with him. Maybe not half, given your uninvolved level before, but you'll surely get more time than 4 hours a week, "supervised".
She probably knows this and besides, like I said, if you back off the request for more time with him, it's obviously not something very important to you.
Maybe this is a test; maybe not, but you need to pass it.
I can also ask that at my next visit, thursday, she show me how to change a diaper. Which I want to learn anyway.
of course... let it be fun/funny... an opportunity to bond and not be too proud...got it?
As for being the man I need to be, no worries, I learnt my lesson big time (it's been 6 months now, so I had time to think about all the situations were I acted selfish and disrespectful, and regret it, and be ashamed of it, and want to change my ways). it is easier to know what NOT TO DO than to know what TO DO...in times of crisis/stress, we revert to what we know. Hence the need for TOOLS to use for new ways of relating.
So who are your positive role models for loving marriages? Who do you look to to see how a mature loving man handles life's stresses? In a sense, her bargain keeps things exactly as they are (visits for me, and possibility of divorce in her hands...).
That is why it must change. Keep it simple Bruce. Don't address the marriage or money or anthing else for now. Her major complaint about you seems related to how little you did as a father or husband to her. So Simply assert your rights and desires as a father, to have more time with your son. ASAP...let that lead elsewhere over time...more time than you think.
To even suggest she move back with you is...well...very very premature. Let HER take the lead with you guys as a COUPLE but YOU take the lead as a father, or look lazy & uncaring and risk the permanent loss of time with your son.
What would be a good time frame to be as bold as suggesting to go out together? (not that I want to "test" her sincerity...)
A minimum of 90 days w/your consistently new behavior, before a date is requested- UNLESS she asks first...but Adniva's 3 year period might be more accurate.
Then again, you claim to be a patient man...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hello there, For once I have to disagree with the advice that has been given here. Adniva's 3 years was sarcasm, like wait three years to move your little finger, NOT !
Ok, to not rush things, in the romance/date/relationship realm, but 90 days, (three months)... come on. I will let the feelings she has and the love remaining wither. Then she can say, rightly, that I am really not interested in her, that I am lazy and uncaring. And she would be right. I say that by Christmas I should see some signs of improvement already, like holding hands, or kissing or something. It's not impatience, it's evidence that things are going in the right direction.
Of course, I'll let the lead to her. Thanks, that is Good advice.
As for getting more time with my son, it is precisely against the deal she proposed: give up the extra time I went to the lawyer for, against her dropping the D proceedings. How can I the next day, say : by the way, I want more time with Brucie?
I know I have to show interest in my fathering him, and it is genuine. I so wish I wasn't forced to give up on him, I kinda accepted the death deal, either way, I lose. So should I ask her to let him with me on Saturdays for example? Or one evening? It's kinda awkward now with this weird deal. Any suggestions?
And yes, I WANT MORE TIME WITH MY SON. Regardless. Period. There's no marketing here. I am not more or less attractive with or without him, and for that matter I am not interested in someone else. I am commited to my W, she is the right one for me. I know this. We're just having a rough time adjusting.
As for having the right tools and role model in M, I have to admit that I don't know who to look up to for a good exemple. But I'm a clever guy and I have studied the subject in depth with the time my W gave me as a gift. I can still read more books if I don't have it pat down. But I need practice, and that's why I need my W back first.
After all, she did pronounce the words : sort things out between us slowly. And since she said she would drop the D, technically, I am piecing. I went to my friends today to celebrate that.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
