I DON'T BELIEVE YOU READ MY POST THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH, (and it took a lot of MY time to post it to you....)
I THINK YOU STOPPED READING IT B/C YOU DIDN'T LIKE WHAT IT SAID... I want to get your attention.
YOU RESIST our words too much. You are not taking in what we say to you. You'll never win her back with your present attitude.
I wondered if I was too harsh with you earlier, but no one seemed to get through...but even my direct blunt approach did NOT get through to you...
I fear that you have the disease of "needing to be right", which means
your priority -is that BEING "RIGHT" IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING HAPPY (OR MARRIED...)
Also, Why didn't you answer the questions I posted in my previous lengthy time consuming post? I asked you a lot of things and if you won't answer those questions, you may as well accept the divorce as final.
Originally Posted By: Big Bruce
My friends, The thing on self-righteousness is right on. I'm guilty of it. But a wise man knows when he should be humble and accept correction. I will do my best to get rid of it. And selfishness too. Guilty big time. How will you do this^^? It's a CHALLENGE that requires time and effort and a PLAN of action....are you seeing an individual counselor yet?
Are you familiar with the phrase, "Dig Deeper"?
As for my attitude towards W, I said I was sorry, I have written letters asking for forgiveness for very precise things, I showed remorse and a change in my attitude. But that's probably not enough I suppose. If it were enough, it would have happened... words alone are never enough and that's all you have done.
(I asked you what you have DONE to change in my previous post and since you ignored that question, I assume "nothing" is the answer...what else can I assume?)
Today was my "visit" day, and the library was closing doors, and I proposed we went somewhere else, and W says : "there's only half hour left anyway". Ouch, I clearly feel she doesn't enjoy spending time with me. (Needless to say, she came with her mum to supervise). How do you treat her so that she can enjoy time with you? Compare how you treated her before, when she felt ignored and you sulked and didn't help her, with how you are treating her now...
is there anything difference in how you behave towards her or her family or your son?
All of this is about to change. She's in for a surprise tomorrow, when they receive the counter petition from my lawyer asking for my son every other week. I don't mean it in a malign way. It's just that she really is convinced she has the right to have our son all for herself! As others have said, that's probably b/c she DID have all the WORK/CARE FOR HIM to herself while you were together
and she didn't notice much difference when you got there...and since you have so far, accepted such low visitation, she won't notice a difference til it happens.
Maybe if you had chosen to fight for time with him BEFORE NOW, she might have thought you were "entitled" to some time with him...
but come on Bruce, you had her doing all the child care before AND YET You played the victim for not giving you attention, all at the same time. You still do play the victim. How can you not see that in your tone HERE?
I know this sounds crazy, and you probably think I am exaggerating, but she does think she's doing my a favour by granting me two visits a week! Does not sound crazy. I don't think you are exaggerating.
She's inconvenienced by it, there's a change in son's schedule, which is a drag for him and her, and he barely knows you if he's only 19 months and you missed the last 1/3 of his life, and weren't around helping much the first year...
and since I asked you if you had ever cared for the boy alone OR over night and you did not answer, I assume the answer is no. SO she's probably worried for his well being too.
This coming week, I really have to focus on responding gently and calmly. No anger, no bitterness, just a husband who loves his child. YES^^^^ you must, so don't anticipate all the negatives you are thinking she'll show.
Read the DR book again and again. One thing they mention doing is to hope for the best of our spouse, and give them something to live UP TO, not down to...
that does not mean to have "expectations" so much as to NOT negatively project,
b/c if you do that, you'll radiate defensiveness like you are ready to pounce on her and fight her--and she'll feel the same and it often escalates fast and things get scrambled...
and I get that vibe from your tone here anyhow. You SAY you want to be calm and you SAY you are not a victim - but your own words later betray the opposite.
W will be furious, mad and sore angry. I'm NOT trying to force respect on anyone, that's^^ good, b/c it's impossible to FORCE respect on someone...fyi
but I think that I gave several opportunities for her to make a step in my direction, WHEN? What have you DONE to show her you are not going to bully or criticize her or take her for granted again? What steps did you expect her to take, and why?
What have you DONE to show generosity and less self centeredness???
and she has to realize that her own choices lead to the explosion of our family. so, YOU did not play a role in her emotions? Nothing you did, no choices YOU made, lead to any of this? Wow, so it's ALL HER FAULT?? Why'd you ever apologize to her then??
My concern is you just WON'T get it in time...b/c you are so resistant to having been wrong in a big important way.
So far, she didn't feel ANY of the consequences of her choice to separate.
well she has not been around YOU - so if she missed you, or if son did, then that would be a consequence, right?
Or are you admitting she sees your absence as an advantage? And why would that be? I am not the victim, but STOP!
Whenever someone starts a sentence with a clause, and then uses the word "BUT", it negates the whole first clause....so what you really mean to say is
I AM A VICTIM...(but you don't want to say it again b/c it's frowned upon here.)
and the comments that follow this are what came after your "but", which are all about how you ARE a victim--
nobody was at the airport when I arrived in the country, I slept in a youth hostel while looking for a place to rent, walked miles by foot to sort my several documents and buy food, English is not my language and I struggled, while she had a house, a car, friends and family here. Is your point that you were not welcomed there? Well Bruce, now think hard. I'm not being sarcastic...but tell me, Why would she AND HER FAMILY - Not feel like meeting you at the airport OR welcoming you there?
When You arrived in country, what did you think would happen? When did she tell you she wanted out of the marriage?
Why did you expect a warmer welcome? I'm sincerely asking.
Why were you surprised by this cold reception? Tell us what SHE WOULD SAY the reasons are...be as specific as possible.
W stopped attending church (of course, living in sin doesn't go well together),
Wow....so what's that part about YOU wanting to learn humility again? B/c this statement ^^ is NOT a humble statement.
IT's MORE self righteousness and more condemnation and it's not a loving message at all....(AND a man who condemns his wife is NOT going to attract her back to him)
& Excuse me but
HOW is SHE living in sin? Plus, maybe she's going elsewhere to church and doesn't want to run into you.
OR maybe she thinks you use religion to manipulate & bully, which of course would be a warping of Christ's message.
Speaking of Christianity and marriage and the role of the h,
were You the spiritual leader of the family who modelled Christ's love for his church, by putting your wife's needs ahead of yours?
she rarely smiles, she changed lots. She's not the cheerful girl I knew back in France. What happened?
she's not smiling around you I guess. If it's regret on her end, you'll know. If it's your company she does not like, then you have to ask yourself why that is.
You already said (above) it's clear she does not want to be around you
so hence the short visits and never being alone with you.
Bruce, dig deeper and be WAY more honest & self aware, at least w/yourself.
We have all struggled with some deeply frightening inner flaws.
We have all had to DO SOME BRAVE INWARD SEARCHING...
Why is your wife acting as if you were a lousy h who hurt her a lot,
if you were not?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
This coming week, I really have to focus on responding gently and calmly. No anger, no bitterness, just a husband who loves his child.
How have you shown this love in the past? Describe the loving actions, actions that don't include buying things.
And I'll ask again, have you ever haven your son for any period of time by yourself? Have you bathed him, changed diapers, made sure he's fed, played with him?
Quote:
W will be furious, mad and sore angry. I'm NOT trying to force respect on anyone, but I think that I gave several opportunities for her to make a step in my direction, and she has to realize that her own choices lead to the explosion of our family. So far, she didn't feel ANY of the consequences of her choice to separate.
Apparently she doesn't want to step in your direction.
She doesn't have to. With all the anger you project, she's probably made a wise decision.
Bruce, you are trying to force her to respect you. You've lost something and you're afraid you won't get it back. Anger usually comes from fear.
I don't know what you feel is the most valuable thing you've lost here. That's what you need to figure out and work on.
Have you ever stepped in her direction, even before this? If so, how?
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
You are getting some excellent advice from some of the best members on these forums. Take a step back, take a deep breath and start getting a plan together. Break it down into small manageable increments. Short term goals.
You should feel very fortunate for the support you are receiving. When we spend our valuable time in an effort to help, we hope that you will do something with it. I know when I post to someone and it gets ignored, I won't bother to stay long.
What I am saying is it is time to get with the program. Utilize the advice you have received. It is a gift.
Me:45 ExW:48 M:04/97 3 Bombs & 2 ReCons 1st BD 11/10 D Finalized 4/20 D-16 S-14 Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
My dear friends, First of all I want to say thank you. I know it takes time to read a sitch, understand well, and respond with wisdom and impartially.
Because I am earnest, I will answer all the questions the best I can, and pay attention to your advice, to save this M. I might have sounded like a bad person, haughty and all, but am really not. People would describe me as affable and forthcoming.
It's been a long time since I'm not trying to be right any more. And it looks like I need to eat some more humble pie. So be it, if I want to have my W back. The plan to get rid of self-righteousness is to never accuse my W of anything. I can say, without boasting, that I did precisely that. And since we're talking about accusations/negativity, I also (except one short email in June) NEVER used our Christian beliefs, or the Bible to condemn her, or convince her.
And yes, I saw a personal counsellor one month after I arrived, but he helped me more with my "dark" thoughts to say the least. And why was I expecting my wife to welcome me? Well, because I, nasty as I am, wouldn't have inflicted to my worse enemy what I had to go through upon my arrival. Physical pain, sleepless nights, anguishes, acids in the stomach, heart beats, sorrow, lack of hunger, lack of wanting to continue to live, I think many people on this site can relate, I will stop the description here. No one deserves that, if I wasn't a coward, I would maybe have done something irreparable to myself. This is NO JOKE.
Now, what have I done, to back up my nice letters, with the best intentions? Well, I have accepted all her schedule for visitation, and in my 2x 1.5 hour visits per week, I have played with my son in the park, invited them to McDo and paid for their goodies. I have asked questions about her life (studies, part-time work) and tried to listen and nod the best I could, but the answers were always very short and matter of factly, so it wasn't easy. I shared about things I was doing, been always upbeat and gentle, held the door, helped her put her coat on, carried "the toddler", put him in the car, took him out of the car, fed him pots of toddler food, bought him toys.. you get the picture. Since I don't have the "home advantage", it took months of changed behaviour before she stopped sulking and acting more "normal" around me. (baby step he?)
I not only said and written things, I have acted on it as well. The way I treat her now is focus on her and my son : opposite of what I used to do. If you have suggestions of what other things I could be doing to show my goodwill, I'd most certainly appreciate.
Now, I have to make something clear: I sought more time with my son, even asked to have him overnight, one night a week, but she always resisted my efforts. For the sake of reconciliation, I didn't enter into a legal battle to ascertain my rights right away, but gently kept reminding her that I'd love to get more involved in my son's life. About a month ago, people on this site told me that custody of my son was more important than the relationship for the moment, or I might lose both, which led to me asking more openly, and her refusing more openly. I politely said I would seek help from a lawyer because the visitation pattern wasn't fair, which caused her to run to her lawyer and file for 100% custody and D.
Yes, now she will be inconvenienced if I have 50% custody, and no I haven't been alone with my son for one minute, let alone take care of him for a whole day or night, so I understand her concern.
One thing you're absolutely right, I shouldn't assume the worse of her. I shouldn't already being negative about her reaction. Although her filing for D is in a sense, her getting mad at me for asking to have my son more time. Now the legal battle has begun, and I have to take the hight road, always.
Oh, and another thing I did to show I was not going to bully/criticize, etc... well, the next day of being served, I wrote an email, (beginning as usual with a compliment and ending with an encouragement, and nice in the middle), and at the end I stated "P.S. I received the papers, and that was sad she felt so hopeless about us". No reproaches, no criticism, no accusations. How about that?
To show generosity and less self-centredness, I gave her back in July a check of big amount, to "help with the expenses". At first she refused to cash it, but a month or two after, she said she was entitled to this, that, and she would cash the check. To which I replied that no need to ask, if she wanted all my salary was hers. I mean business with generosity.
And maybe she goes to church somewhere else, but I don't think so. And no, I haven't been exactly a model of spiritual leadership, no I haven't been the husband I should have been.
Since the Bomb in June, in words, in thoughts and in acts I made steps towards her, towards restoration, without receiving any in return, and I didn't grow weary, I kept on giving, love attention, kindness and patience. We reached this point now, and I'm at loss of what should be my next steps. Really am.
Even if before when we were in France, I showed myself distant, selfish and perhaps even neglected her. Even if I am responsible for losing that "emotional connection", is it a reason to DIVORCE? I mean without even trying to go to counsellor, or anything? Is it a good reason to screw up our son's life and mine? Those are rhetorical questions of course, and it just to emphasize the hard place I'm in, so you guys don't think I just have to make a couple of 180 and everything's going to be alright...
Thank you for reading, and perhaps responding, be assured of my reading several times each post, as I try to implement these precious advice in my situation. Bonsoir.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
What a fine and polished script. Let's break it down.
"The plan to get rid of self-righteousness is to never accuse my W of anything."
Wrong. The key to get rid of self-righteousness is understanding. By you not "accusing your W of anything", you don't learn anything that got you where you were in the first place. And let's face it, it seems you started her on this path.
"I also (except one short email in June) NEVER used our Christian beliefs, or the Bible to condemn her"
So what is this..."(of course, living in sin doesn't go well together)" if not condemning her? Did you have sex prior to marriage? If so, then you "lived in sin".
" nasty as I am, wouldn't have inflicted to my worse enemy what I had to go through upon my arrival."
And neither did she. She just chose to not think about you. There's a difference. It's not as if she schemed to have those things happen to you, yet you blame her for it.
"Although her filing for D is in a sense, her getting mad at me for asking to have my son more time."
She wanted a D before the issue of your son came up.
"I wrote an email, (beginning as usual with a compliment and ending with an encouragement, and nice in the middle)"
You act as if just your actions will bring her back. They will not. If you read DR, you will understand that you have to UNDERSTAND things from your wife's POV and why she felt like she had to do what she did. It's not an easy decision and just some superficial actions will not bring her back emotionally. She has to feel like you are on her side.
"To show generosity and less self-centredness, I gave her back in July a check of big amount, to "help with the expenses".
You should have done that regardless to fund your son's well-being. Your saying that it was an act of "generosity" shows that you were acting self-righteous. You should have been taking care of your son no matter what had happened.
That's what you don't get. She really thought you didn't care about him and her.
"At first she refused to cash it, but a month or two after, she said she was entitled to this, that, and she would cash the check."
Which she is.
"Even if I am responsible for losing that "emotional connection", is it a reason to DIVORCE?
The "emotional connection" isn't the reason why she's divorcing you. It's because you were...""distant, selfish and perhaps even neglected her."
Would you want to stay with a woman who was (in your own words) distant, selfish, and neglectful?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
My dear friends, First of all I want to say thank you. I know it takes time to read a sitch, understand well, and respond with wisdom and impartially.
Because I am earnest, I will answer all the questions the best I can, and pay attention to your advice, to save this M. I might have sounded like a bad person, haughty and all, but am really not. People would describe me as affable and forthcoming.
It's been a long time since I'm not trying to be right any more. And it looks like I need to eat some more humble pie. So be it, if I want to have my W back. The plan to get rid of self-righteousness is to never accuse my W of anything. I can say, without boasting, that I did precisely that. And since we're talking about accusations/negativity, I also (except one short email in June) NEVER used our Christian beliefs, or the Bible to condemn her, or convince her.
Yes but you said those things HERE and so I assume it shows in your behavior. You said she isn't going to church anymore and then you did some mind reading about why. You said it's B/c "she's living in sin" but you never explained that condemning comment.
And yes, I saw a personal counsellor one month after I arrived, but he helped me more with my "dark" thoughts to say the least. I'm glad you got some help then. Why not keep it up? That is NOT an insult.
I had to see a shrink for a solid year and a good MC for longer...and I had a DB coach too.
I've been there, done that. I needed help b/c I did not have the tools for this.
And why was I expecting my wife to welcome me? Well, because I, nasty as I am, wouldn't have inflicted to my worse enemy what I had to go through upon my arrival. Physical pain, sleepless nights, anguishes, acids in the stomach, heart beats, sorrow, lack of hunger, lack of wanting to continue to live, I think many people on this site can relate, I will stop the description here. No one deserves that, if I wasn't a coward, I would maybe have done something irreparable to myself. This is NO JOKE. No one thinks you are joking. And suicide IS a supreme act of cowardice and selfishness. I have a great uncle who killed himself...that's literally all I know of him.
My h's best friend lost his dad to suicide (after his third wife left him)...their 13 y/o son found him dead so he's messed up for life...and almost all of the family including the WAW just felt SO ANGRY AT HIM for doing that.
No one felt pity or regret. No one said "gee I sure am sorryr about how I/WE treated him..." they saw him as weak and cowardly and ultimately as a selfish man. That is not what you want to be remembered for OR what you want to teach your son.
So don't gloss over the wreckage a parent's suicide has on a child AND that child's children too...it's multi generational....
wouldn't it be easier and better and more moral AND happier,
to see a good IC and figure out where you can work on yourself and become the best Bruce you can become?
ANYHOW, My point in asking about your expecations was, since you knew things were not good in the marriage, that they were "distant", I'm asking two things really.
First, did she SAY or ACT as if she'd meet you and you could be with her and then NOT show up,
OR did she warn you of wanting a divorce, but you thought it would blow over?
Second, why did her family treat you so badly too? What was your relationship like with them before all this?
As I type this, I have my son's soon to be ex gf here in our home b/c she is moving back east but her apartment isn't ready yet (in NYC where the hurricane hit). I'd never toss her out.
And she isn't married to my son NOR is she the mother of my grandchild so it would take a lot of bad stuff on her end for me to treat her the way your inlaws treated you.
I'm asking for you to come up with some insights as to why they'd do that.
And again, dig deep.
Now, what have I done, to back up my nice letters, with the best intentions? Well, I have accepted all her schedule for visitation, Please tell me that you now realize this "acceptance" of her schedule was NOT seen as "cooperative" of you.
It was seen as more evidence of how uninvolved you are as a father. It proved her negative image of you was true.
The only thing you have DONE that an involved dad would do, is to seek more time with him. She forced the legal option on you.
Your goal is to undermine her view of you as an uninvolved unloving unconcerned dad.
You have taken the first step. Stay on that message. It's not about her, it's not about the marriage. It's NOT about you taking him away from her, but about YOU being in his life more. A boy needs a father and that job is yours.
and in my 2x 1.5 hour visits per week, I have played with my son in the park, invited them to McDo and paid for their goodies. No offense, but just so you know, this ^^^ is normal stuff ANY father would do AND enjoy...same goes for opening her door, and putting him in the car, etc. Plus it's ONE frickin' day a week so yeah, it's kind of NOT a big deal so don't mention it to her like you think it's unique, okay?
Just that you are glad to be able to do it and look forward to more time WITH HIM...don't mention time with HER...she has made it clear that she does not want that, for now.
I have asked questions about her life (studies, part-time work) and tried to listen and nod the best I could, but the answers were always very short and matter of factly, so it wasn't easy. Then ask open ended questions, such as her comments, thoughts, opinion on matters (NOT related to the marriage or relationship) and about her dreams or her goals, NOT realted to you directly OR indirectly...it's not a reconnaissance mission (yet) it's to get her to open up more with you and you have to ACT more relaxed around her for her to feel more relaxed...
I needed some anti anxiety meds for awhile so I would not "lose my sh1t" around my h...
once she can feel a little more relaxed around you, you build on that, incrementally.
I shared about things I was doing, been always upbeat and gentle, held the door, helped her put her coat on, carried "the toddler", put him in the car, took him out of the car, fed him pots of toddler food, bought him toys.. you get the picture. okay just to remind you, this^^^ is normal stuff for dads and h's to do. If it's new to YOU then I applaud the progress
but must remind you that she won't think it's a big deal for a long time, if ever. But if it's new for you, then hey, it's a change and that's good.
Since I don't have the "home advantage", it took months of changed behaviour before she stopped sulking and acting more "normal" around me. (baby step he?) sounds like progress.
I not only said and written things, I have acted on it as well. The way I treat her now is focus on her and my son : opposite of what I used to do. If you have suggestions of what other things I could be doing to show my goodwill, I'd most certainly appreciate. Please be more specific b/c "the opposite" isn't clear to me. Tell me 2 or 3 things SHE WOULD complain about if she were here, that you did...that you can or have changed.
Now, I have to make something clear: I sought more time with my son, even asked to have him overnight, one night a week, but she always resisted my efforts. Don't blame her for this. The Court will ask about how it was in France and it doesn't sound as if you did much there.
Besides, it doesn't help you to start out blaming...remember, she fears you want to remove him from her life. Make it clear it's not about taking him from her, but about you being in his life more.
So instead of saying "I would have had time with him BUT YOU STOPPED ME"...you stay on your message -
"I was forced to use the court system to become more involved in his life, but at least now it's clear, I intend to help raise this young man."
If she blurts out about how you never cared before, you can admit it was not as noticable before b/c you lived together but the point is, again, stay on message. The past passed. Be in the present. "W, my insufficient involvment before, is a huge regret of mine. If I had it to do over again, there are many things I'd do differently. But I get it now. From this day forward, I'm here for our son."
For the sake of reconciliation, I didn't enter into a legal battle to ascertain my rights right away, but gently kept reminding her that I'd love to get more involved in my son's life.
and as we said before, that^^ was not getting you reconciled. It was cementing the lousy visitation she arranged for your son.
The longer you "managed" with a once a week "visit" the easier it is for her to argue that that is what it SHOULD be...after all, why uproot the child's schedule now when he is used to only seeing his father a few hours ONE day a week?
Do you now see this?
About a month ago, people on this site told me that custody of my son was more important than the relationship for the moment, or I might lose both, which led to me asking more openly, and her refusing more openly. I politely said I would seek help from a lawyer because the visitation pattern wasn't fair, which caused her to run to her lawyer and file for 100% custody and D.
If I didn't know better, I'd say you want to blame us. AND it's really weird b/c you almost seem to think your approach was getting you somewhere. It was not. And everyone here pretty much saw it hte same way and so does your L.
She told you she wanted a divorce. Those things cost money. As long as she could get you to act in fear and remain paralyzed into inaction, she could wait on the divorce AND
she could dictate the terms. In fact she did just that. The longer you allowed that the harder it will be for you to get it fixed. She believed you are a selfish man who doesn't care much about time w/your son.
THIS filing of yours is the first ACTION you have taken that says otherwise...
In the long run, you had no choice but to stop fueling her negative images and that takes ACTION, not words.
Yes, now she will be inconvenienced if I have 50% custody, and no I haven't been alone with my son for one minute, let alone take care of him for a whole day or night, so I understand her concern. As I said above, make sure you OWN that and seek out ways for her to get comfortable with it. It'll have to happen
or it never will....make sense? IOW you will get time with him in all likelihood, and YES it'll be uncomfortable til he gets to know you.
IF your son doesn't know you now well enough to feel comfy going off with you
then maybe the court will suggest a third party to help with that,
OR Maybe your w will spend longer periods of time with the two of you. But I wonder about you learning to be his dad WITHOUT a member of her family OR HER being there. IT's really the best way to learn it.
My h spent some time with our son while I studied for the bar and it was great for THEM to bond then...I'm not sure it would have happened for a lot longer if I had not needed his help. But it sure paid off.
I would try my best to take him places like a child's museum or zoo, for short spans of time to get him to feel comfortable and for her to see that he can have fun with you.
And not b/c you want to be with HER, per se.
make sense?
One thing you're absolutely right, I shouldn't assume the worse of her. I shouldn't already being negative about her reaction. Although her filing for D is in a sense, her getting mad at me for asking to have my son more time. Hello?? Here, ^^^you are already negatively mind reading about her motives for filing!
I doubt it was anger. It may have been fear. But in any case, it's what she said she'd do...and you were forced into the legal system b/c she wasn't sharing him in any way near what the law allows for. At least now she cannot accuse you of not taking action to see your son and to be a part of his life....stay on message with that..
Now the legal battle has begun, and I have to take the hight road, always.
Oh, and another thing I did to show I was not going to bully/criticize, etc... well, the next day of being served, I wrote an email, (beginning as usual with a compliment and ending with an encouragement, and nice in the middle), and at the end I stated "P.S. I received the papers, and that was sad she felt so hopeless about us". No reproaches, no criticism, no accusations. How about that? It sounds as if it is a big improvement --but I get the feeling you did it for a reaction from her, which is NOT detached of you and if you have any expectations of her, or want a certain reaciton, it will often crush you when you don't get one.
Try to recall my suggestion that you keep the legal matters separate from your fathering efforts...and don't mention the legal matters at all.
Let her associate the ugly part of this with the lawyers you pay money to...and the time spent with your son interacting with him as his dad, as a totally separate issue.
IF SHE brings up the issue of legal costs you can agree but say you didn't see another way "given how she seems to feel about you having more time with him"...and change the topic. Do NOT await a response.
To show generosity and less self-centredness, I gave her back in July a check of big amount, to "help with the expenses". At first she refused to cash it, but a month or two after, she said she was entitled to this, that, and she would cash the check. To which I replied that no need to ask, if she wanted all my salary was hers. I mean business with generosity. well, that's a nice gesture. But It's money...and she benefitted by not filing yet...and she probably saw it as a bribe, but then felt entitled to it...
BUT let your L help you with choices like that next time....okay?
Let me ask you this, what do you believe her love languages are?
I suggest to all couples that they read "The Five Love Languages" and in your case I get the feeling you and your wife do not speak the same language of giving AND receiving love...
it's well worth a read and then you can share what you think.
And maybe she goes to church somewhere else, but I don't think so.
None of your business IF she goes, let alone to assume she does not and then assign a reason for her not going. Don't even go there. Not your place to judge or criticize her. You are her h, not her superior or God or her priest...
And no, I haven't been exactly a model of spiritual leadership, no I haven't been the husband I should have been.
Since the Bomb in June, in words, in thoughts and in acts I made steps towards her, towards restoration, without receiving any in return, and I didn't grow weary, I kept on giving, love attention, kindness and patience. I don't know what you mean by this^^^ other than writing a check to her. You said she is better around you too, so I guess you DID get something in return. But as for your kindness and love and attention (when? The ONE day a week you see them?)
Honestly, this is the first post in which you have not sounded furious and indignant about her leaving.
Can you share why YOU believe she left?
Can you tell us WHAT SHE SAID were the reasons and please, please you must be as specific as possible so we can advise accordingly.
We reached this point now, and I'm at loss of what should be my next steps. Really am.
Even if before when we were in France, I showed myself distant, selfish and perhaps even neglected her. Even if I am responsible for losing that "emotional connection", is it a reason to DIVORCE? well, they are reasons to her. Don't pooh pooh her reasons. They sounded valid to me by YOUR description of what you thought HER flaws were. Did you really take in what I said?
BRUCE, to many women who become mothers, a neglectful h at that time in their life, in a country NOT of HER origin, is a recipe for her loneliness and depression and to many women it's unforgivable to have been hurt by their hs at such a vulnerable time. You complained that you didn't get enough attention and you said "Something was wrong with her" for that...
I think she had reasons for leaving a lot of women would relate to. Too bad YOU did not suggest counselling while you were in France...eh?
Instead of dismissing her reasons, which gets you nowhere, Study them, learn about why she felt so bad and so hurt by you, that she'd want to leave the father of her only child...uproot him to return across the ocean and never see you again,
figure out your role and stop defending it and or minimizing her reasons or you'll get stuck and stay stuck.
I mean without even trying to go to counsellor, or anything? Is it a good reason to screw up our son's life and mine? Those are rhetorical questions of course, and it just to emphasize the hard place I'm in, so you guys don't think I just have to make a couple of 180 and everything's going to be alright... Did YOU ever arrange mc in France? Did you seek out pastoral counselling? I mean, what did you do to save the marriage when it was crumbling around her?
You'll say "I didn't know how bad it was" so your job now is to ask her how bad it was and to STFU and listen to her when she tells you. Tell her you really want to know...and I hope that will be true.
Thank you for reading, and perhaps responding, be assured of my reading several times each post, as I try to implement these precious advice in my situation. Bonsoir.
Bonsoir mon ami
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"Even if I am responsible for losing that "emotional connection", is it a reason to DIVORCE?
The "emotional connection" isn't the reason why she's divorcing you. It's because you were...""distant, selfish and perhaps even neglected her."
Would you want to stay with a woman who was (in your own words) distant, selfish, and neglectful?
I wanted to highlight this from Bond's post as I have similar thoughts.
I'll add that it would be very unusual if your W never talked to you about the problems she was having with the marriage. Women communicate their feelings, even to people who don't want to hear them. We are communicators, relaters, connection seekers.
Are you sure you might have brushed it off as not important?
Think really hard.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Mes tres chers amis, All your insights and words of encouragement are truly appreciated. I will expose the facts as honestly as possible, so I can realize some truths and amend my course of action accordingly. Thank you, thank you.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Yes but you said those things HERE and so I assume it shows in your behavior. You said she isn't going to church anymore and then you did some mind reading about why. You said it's B/c "she's living in sin" but you never explained that condemning comment.
Well, I meant, the D decision in itself is a sin. I shared that with you because I vent here, but never accused her of that. That wouldn't have changed her. I know better.
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I'm glad you got some help then. Why not keep it up? That is NOT an insult.
Yes, maybe I should go back to the counselor. I had the impression he listened to me, showed empathy, but never instructed me what to do or give me advice. When I share my problems, I want solutions, not someone who listens to me.
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First, did she SAY or ACT as if she'd meet you and you could be with her and then NOT show up, OR did she warn you of wanting a divorce, but you thought it would blow over?
Second, why did her family treat you so badly too? What was your relationship like with them before all this?
- Well, she actually said she wouldn't come to meet me, but I never thought one spouse could ever do that to her H.
- As for the insights as to why her parents wouldn't welcome me, either they've listened too closely to W's complaints and taken sides even before I arrived. Or they never liked me really. Info : they didn't come to our wedding. Her sister didn't come, her brother didn't come. Reason: it wasn't a good time of the year, people are busy. I bought it at the time. We never spoke on tel due to hour difference, or written cards for Xmas, I don't need to dig deep to see I was just the guy who stole their precious daughter.
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Please tell me that you now realize this "acceptance" of her schedule was NOT seen as "cooperative" of you.
It was seen as more evidence of how uninvolved you are as a father. It proved her negative image of you was true.
EYE OPENER HERE! I saw it as being agree-able and kind, I was being lazy, and uninvolved again!
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Just that you are glad to be able to do it and look forward to more time WITH HIM...don't mention time with HER...she has made it clear that she does not want that, for now.
How am I supposed to make her understand that her company is enjoyable and that is what I want then?
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Then ask open ended questions, such as her comments, thoughts, opinion on matters (NOT related to the marriage or relationship) and about her dreams or her goals, NOT related to you directly OR indirectly...it's not a reconnaissance mission (yet) it's to get her to open up more with you
That's what I call a good advice. Thank you!
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I not only said and written things, I have acted on it as well. The way I treat her now is focus on her and my son : opposite of what I used to do. If you have suggestions of what other things I could be doing to show my goodwill, I'd most certainly appreciate. Please be more specific b/c "the opposite" isn't clear to me. Tell me 2 or 3 things SHE WOULD complain about if she were here, that you did...that you can or have changed.
Well, err, I NEVER complained about the cold, the snow, the rent prices, the city, the country, how short the visits were (maybe I should have), the food, how lonely I was or the fricking lack of mountains, sea or things to do. In normal circumstances, I would have let her know how cold and boring this place is and how we were going to get the f out of here.
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I sought more time with my son, even asked to have him overnight, one night a week, but she always resisted my efforts.
Don't blame her for this. The Court will ask about how it was in France and it doesn't sound as if you did much there.
It doesn't count back in France, because she was breast-feeding, as if I could do it. And she jumped out of bed in the middle of the night when the baby sighed, so of course I let her go and didn't bothered. But I don't blame her for fearing giving up our son, and I admit having made a huge mistake in giving the impression I was not concerned.
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I gently kept reminding her that I'd love to get more involved in my son's life.
and as we said before, that^^ was not getting you reconciled. It was cementing the lousy visitation she arranged for your son.
I see this now. Since, 5 minutes ago.
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She told you she wanted a divorce. Those things cost money. As long as she could get you to act in fear and remain paralyzed into inaction, she could wait on the divorce AND
she could dictate the terms. In fact she did just that. The longer you allowed that the harder it will be for you to get it fixed.
Yes, I was afraid of the D word. Still am in fact. Didn't want to encourage her in that direction. I wanted her to reconsider. Make peace with me. Sit and have a conversation. Something, but not D..
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THIS filing of yours is the first ACTION you have taken that says otherwise...
True. Thanks to you all my friends. I'm grateful you were here to guide me when my "strategy" didn't work, and helped me take the step.
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IF your son doesn't know you now well enough to feel comfy going off with you ... maybe your w will spend longer periods of time with the two of you. But I wonder about you learning to be his dad WITHOUT a member of her family OR HER being there.
Wouldn't that be a blast if she came home to "teach" me to take care of him, then realized it's the place where she always should have been? Oh I'm getting ahead of myself here...
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Although her filing for D is in a sense, her getting mad at me for asking to have my son more time.
Hello?? Here, ^^^you are already negatively mind reading about her motives for filing!
Hey, I'm an engineer, not a psychologist. When someone files for D, I don't need to be a mind-reader to understand she is angry about something I did or afraid of something, like you said.
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Try to recall my suggestion that you keep the legal matters separate from your fathering efforts...and don't mention the legal matters at all.
Let her associate the ugly part of this with the lawyers you pay money to...and the time spent with your son interacting with him as his dad, as a totally separate issue.
Great advice. Will focus on that in the coming days..
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To show generosity and less self-centredness, I gave her back in July a check of big amount, to "help with the expenses". well, that's a nice gesture. But It's money...and she benefitted by not filing yet...and she probably saw it as a bribe, but then felt entitled to it...
You know, there's only so much I can do : write letters, write emails, telephone (to her parents house), give money to her, say hello how are you when we meet, buy toys for my son, play with him and say good-bye I had a nice time when we part.
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Let me ask you this, what do you believe her love languages are?
The worse thing is that I even read the book a couple of years ago, mind you! And if you want my opinion, I'm not sure what she sees as a loving thing, maybe the Acts of Service one as number 1, followed by Quality time I'd say.
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I don't know what you mean by this^^^ other than writing a check to her. You said she is better around you too, so I guess you DID get something in return. But as for your kindness and love and attention (when? The ONE day a week you see them?)
It's two times a week I see them, and it's 1,5 hour each time. And I showed kindness and all, by, you know, being smiley, giving compliments, asking her about her day, what courses she was taking, when's the next test, how is her part time job. Frankly, what else can I do? My maneuver margin is very limited.
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Can you tell us WHAT SHE SAID were the reasons and please, please you must be as specific as possible so we can advise accordingly.
Since all your posts are so good in general, I will trust you and paste-copy a portion of the Bomb email she sent me in June :"We disagree strongly on key issues, notably in the areas of finances, child-rearing and the importance of family in terms of priority level. These fundamental differences between us have made it impossible for me to consider a fulfilling, long-term...etc..." (Note. Finances = translate : I spent the money on fun things for me.)
Looks like we've pin-point the culprit reason, haven't we?
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Did YOU ever arrange mc in France? Did you seek out pastoral counselling? I mean, what did you do to save the marriage when it was crumbling around her?
None of it. I didn't have a clue.
Au revoir, a bientôt.
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
I'll add that it would be very unusual if your W never talked to you about the problems she was having with the marriage. Women communicate their feelings, even to people who don't want to hear them. We are communicators, relaters, connection seekers.
Are you sure you might have brushed it off as not important?
Think really hard.
I honestly can't remember a single time when, .. wait a minute... If those were a reproaches, well, then it wasn't clear at all. Impossible for me to understand anything when the W is again sulking and in bad humour...
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
"When I share my problems, I want solutions, not someone who listens to me." "Hey, I'm an engineer, not a psychologist."
That explains much. I get that you use humor to hide any insecurities you may be feeling but you're coming across as not truly listening.
From your background, I understand how you want someone to tell you the secret formula to saving your M and how to be a good H. No one can do that. No one can teach you compassion or empathy. You have to learn it yourself.
Your C was trying to get you to figure out your own problems. When you do that, changes stick and are for life. If you just followed what your C told you, if they didn't work, you would have just blamed him. It comes down to personal responsibility.
As for your W, you think that being nice, complimenting, etc. is what you need to do. It just comes off as fake and unreal. Treat her the way she should have been treated. Do not go over the top.
You have different excuses. What you do with the time together is what matters not the length. Some have lived a lifetime in 15 minutes.
You say that you didn't "hear" your W's complaints. I'm sure she did but you filed it away in your mind as her "nagging" and blew it off. Go back and replay those little comments she would make about your bad habits. See it from her point of view. If you can honestly see that, then you might be able to save your family.
"In normal circumstances, I would have let her know how cold and boring this place is and how we were going to get the f out of here."
And she would have left you sooner because it reeks of arrogance. If you don't like where you're living, then leave and go back home. But if you want to raise your son and put someone else's needs above your own, then you adapt. There are many things to like wherever you are. You just need to adjust your perspective.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
