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Well done, Bestgal, rooting for you and your M.

Thank you longrun!

Just a quick update to say that things are still improving, but it is still a very slow process, which I've read here over and over is to be expected...

Although the rings are back on and I'm very grateful for all the progress I'm seeing, he still isn't sleeping in the bed yet, and there's still no intimacy. I did get an ILY the other night before he went on an early morning camping trip for the night, and he brought home some cool pics to show me from it. I'm sure it will come, but it does hurt sometimes when I'm really wanting to be with him or hold his hand. It's still a little like awkward dating at times, and other times it's like really fun dating. We're laughing a lot and for all of that I really can't complain.

I guess I would say I prefer this in a way, because I get to be a better W in all the ways I wasn't before! I also feel like I've changed a little bit (and am still changing) for the better. I don't think I'll be perfect by any stretch, but this did give me a much needed wake up call. It's nice being able to have "that gift of time" where I can take the time to re-train my mind, to do things like

choose my battles wisely
drop things quickly if they're not working
let petty things slide
work on me, GAL
keep up the PMA and the 180s

Another bit of progress is that I see him look at me more, and for longer periods of time. I guess the best way to put it is that he's much much more engaged in me, and in us. While we're at it, he's not drinking every night anymore either, and has stopped smoking pot. (I knew that would happen, it makes him tired and he's trying to train for a huge triathalon-type trip next year).

I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, in the hopes that it will continue to get better and that the sex will come back shortly!

I still don't have a crystal ball, but I can say with certainty that without this BB and the really great feedback of everyone here, not to mention Michelle's books and insight - I would be having a very different experience right now.

Thanks everyone.

I would love some feedback if anyone has any. I broke the rules by bringing up the M last night to my H, I know. But after 2 months of not even a hug, I wanted something so I could understand a little more. So I just wanted to update a little...things are still good as far as getting along goes. We're spending lots of time together like we used to, going out, doing things, spending quality time. But no intimacy, closeness like we had, no ILY, handholding, or sex.

Last night when we were in the car, we passed a sex shop on the street we were driving on. After commenting on how empty the pkg lot always looked, I half jokingly said something like "Are we ever going to have sex again?"

H: (Chuckled) Well, we're not even sleeping in the same bed right now.

Me: That's because you decided to leave the bed.

H: Well there's a lot of stuff happening between us.

Me: Ok, can you tell me what that would be?

H: So you don't know.

Me: I know what happened during our last fight, but I'm sure I see things from one perspective, and you see them from another.

H: Well it wasn't good. You don't ever just let me say "I don't want to talk about this anymore", you just keep going and keep going, and I have no choice in it. So I decided to put my foot down and that I'd had enough. I'm not going to deal with that again. I put a stop to it.

Me: so it's all because of me?

H: Yes.

Me: Do you feel like all our problems are because of me, then?

H: No I'm not saying that.

Me: (fighting the urge to get angry): So you're saying that when we fight, I don't let you drop the subject. I just keep going.

H: Yes and I'm not dealing with it anymore. I decided I'm done with it.

Me: And that was 2 months ago. We haven't slept in the same bed in 2 months.

H: yeah, and there have been no problems in 2 months either.

Me: I have apologized about it, and you're right. It wasn't right of me to do. I felt terrible about it, and it's something I'm working to change. But this is not not just going to go away on its own.

H: I'm not saying it's all you.

(I was starting to get upset and angry so I dropped it for a while)

LATER on the drive home

Me: Can I ask you something?

H: (Silence)

Me: Yes? (he nods) That entire time you weren't wearing your ring, did anyone ask you about why you weren't wearing it all of a sudden? After 4 years of having it on?

H: No. No one noticed. Who's going to ask something like that? That would be rude.

Me: People do talk about their relationships at your workplace. You don't think any of your friends or workplace people noticed?

H: no one would ask about that.

Me: What would you have said if they had?

H: I don't know. Why?

Me: I don't know.

H: Why?

Me: You just seem kind of - indifferent about the whole thing, so "whatever" about it all.

H: (Silence)

I dropped it there, I just became too overwhelmed with emotion about it. I've been pretty good at detaching these past couple of months, but my curiosity got the best of me and that's what I get.

I'm grateful at least I know what his issue is with me. I just felt hurt and angry about him calling all the shots for so long and me having no say. And as things continue to improve on the spending time front, he's seeing this as good that we're not in the same bed because there's no conflict?? There's less conflict because I'm working really hard at that and focusing on me (much of the time, anyway)...

It never would've even come up if I hadn't asked him about it. I still don't even know if he's attracted to me anymore. (Probably not much right now!) And I am still working on letting go of and trying to forgive the A he had and all the things I feel "he did to me". He is right in that I don't let things go when we're arguing. But to just withdraw all your love and affection for months just seems super over the top to me.

I'm just confused as to what to do. Do I just let this slide, continue to sleep in separate beds and hope for the best "one day"? I'd be lying completely if I said I didn't feel really abandoned and lonely. And pissed off sometimes like today. I'm not perfect, and I know I never will be. But how do you deal with the sex issue when you're waiting?

I feel like he has all the control and say so in our sex life right now. Well, he does. So what can I do? Keep detaching, GAL? Ignore the pink elephant in the middle of my house? Go out of town for a few days? I'm just really uncomfortable being on hold and not sure how to express emotion for him. I've ceased telling him how I feel about him, crying in front of him, hugging him and initiating any kind of sex (if you don't count yesterday's talk). Ugh I'm sure this sounds like I'm complaining, and I probably am. I'm just having one of those days....

First off I wanted to say I think you're doing great and you're seeing results, I pray we start wearing our rings again. Make sure you celebrate those baby steps I also feel for you because one of my biggest issues is no feedback. It's so frustrating and I understand your abandoned and lonely feelings. I wish I had some words of wisdom but I don't because I'm living same things and struggling with it, just support to keep on doing what you're doing.

Thank you Spartan. I just started reading up on your sitch...not easy stuff but you seem to have a good attitude about it all and I respect that you have taken/are taking some hard looks at your part in things. Sorry you're going through similar!

I think that's it - the hardest thing isn't necessarily the "waiting" - (I use that term kind of loosely because it implies on some level that I'm not living, and I am) - but the not knowing if this is going to take days, weeks, months...you get it, I'm sure.

I know that others have gone through much worse than I am, because I do have him here. He does look at me with love in his eyes, but he won't say the words. I don't think he likes me very much after the way I'm sure I made him feel. But pain is pain right? It's never easy, I just hope it's all worth it. Sometimes I feel like maybe I also make it too easy for him right now. He does still have me at home with him, we aren't in counseling anymore, we still do things together and have fun together - just that we're missing the intimacy. Or should I say I'm missing it right now!

I also sense that he meant what he said about how he wants to see things change, and it's like I've read in DR and here on these boards...that they want to be sure that we're really changing, and not just paying lip service. I do not want to be that person again, regardless. If he sees the change in me and decides to open up the heavenly gates of love once more, great. But even if he doesn't, I don't want to be that person anyway.

Ugh! I don't know whether to be mad at myself or pissed off at my H. I'm not in the most DBing frame of mind. I got impatient today, I looked at his phone when he was in the shower, I haven't done it in some time but I just did.

He had told me right after his A (when he was still behaving cooperative and remorseful) to check it anytime if I wanted to, that he was an open book and to ask any qs I wanted to ask him. So I asked today about a text I saw from a girl he worked with and about them meeting up with some mutual friends that just moved back to town. He and I have been communicating a lot and I didn't even know they were back in the US, so I didn't understand how she knew they were. He explained to me that he was trying to blow her off, and that her and her H were hoping to meet up with them but my H was not wanting to. I didn't feel like I was being oppressive about it I, I just asked. I didn't get upset like I normally would, but I asked one or 2 qs more about it in a calm way. I've just felt like I've been so patient and kind and perfect....maybe I just wanted to throw a wrench in this Stepford wife routine I feel like I'm in sometimes, who knows?

Well once he finished answering me, he suddenly blew up with "I'm DONE answering questions! That's it! I can't deal with this fighting!! DON'T check my phone again!!') Then he got into more absolutes, and "I'm not doing this and I'm not doing that" and something eerily reminiscent to the what he said when he said he was moving out a few months ago, and then lived in his car. I turned around and told him "now I'm the one putting my foot down. If you're going to keep threatening to leave me and move out again, then do it." He said he that's not what he was doing.

I told him that I hadn't checked his phone in a long time, and that he had said in the past that he was an open book and if I had a q, to ask him. So I did. He went on about "he can't stand this fighting". We weren't actually fighting (our fights had always been much more heated), but I guess I can see why it seemed that way to him, since in the past it would open the door for fighting.

I told him I would gladly trade places with him, and that this hasn't been easy for me but I haven't brought any of it up (I was referring to the A) in months. But that how was I supposed to "just trust him?" And that it was like we were now just friends living in the same house, since now he had stopped kissing me, having sex, telling me he loved me, anything, for 2 months - that essentially he had pulled all love and affection from me and that I didn't feel he was even attracted to me anymore. He said "so do I" which I didn't quite get, and then just started slamming stuff around and left for work. Before he left I said "it's like you don't seem to think about or have no idea how your wife might feel about any of this." To which he replied "oh, I have no idea, right?" When he left I said "there are two of us here". Not my best day.

I know we're supposed to be patient here. And that we can't squeeze blood from a stone. But at what point can I ever rely on my H other than to be my buddy and activity partner all of a sudden? How do things just get better with the passage of time after an A? After all the trust is shot to pieces, your partner then decides to withdraw all his love from you and you're expected to handle it all with dignity grace and a sense of detachment regularly, while you pal around like great friends? I can't today.

What I'm about to say does not mean he's right, okay? Being a man, he sees everything different than we women do. You may call it having a conversation...but he calls it a fight. That's how he sees it. Anytime you refer (that includes asking questions) about any issue the two of you have had since things started to break down...he sees it as a fight. He has told you he decided to put his foot down and have no more. Girl, that is a bright red message to you and you best listen to him. Stop bringing up the issues! He will not (maybe b/c he cannot) resolve it through discussions. If you keep pushing it, he will leave you.

I know how frustrating it is b/c my H doesn't talk about anything that is deeper than small talk. He doesn't work things out through talk. He hates the words, "can we talk?"

A lot of men think any serious talking about the M is nagging, or the other word. I once read that whenever a woman says it over one time...a man thinks she is nagging at him. Imagine! It appears your H does not intend to listen to you discuss the M problems any more. And, if you persist, he will put up a thicker & higher wall. Trust me, it will do you more damage than good. You are not going to change his ways by talking.

He said he doesn't like it b/c you just "keep going". Women tend to bring up EVERYTHING in the past. We start.....and one thing leads to other things that's happen over the years and first thing you know....he closed his ears and wants you to close your mouth! Some men say few words to express what they want to say, while we tend to be very wordy. That is a big turn-off to a lot of men. I know how hard it is, I really do!

The other thing he doesn't intend to deal with when you start with these talks is your emotions. He doesn't cooperate or won't say what you want and you start to get frustrated, hurt, and then angry. They can't deal with it and usually shut down.

I don't have the answers for you where your need for physical intimacy is concerned. If it is the sex you need, then be plain about it and tell him. If you have and still get no response, then I'd suggest you up your GAL into very, very high gear. I'm not telling you to go get sex from somebody, but apparently, he isn't too worried that you will. Maybe you need to be gone more often. Be mysterious!

Look, I was the WAS. I'm telling you that the WAS takes his/her mate for granted! Doesn't that stir your blood a little? He's not worried about the fact you are doing without sex. In fact, based on your post, he kind of sounds like he is punishing you. And as long as you follow him around accepting any crumbs he may throw at you.....he won't treat you like you need to be treated. I haven't read your thread in quiet some time, and can't remember details, but I'd be safe in saying that if this isn't the first time he's cheated, and you are the one who is wanting him to return to your bed.....you're selling yourself too cheap! I'm not trying to insult you. I am trying to tell you that your WAH does not value you like he should. He makes all the decisions. You said it....he is control of the R. Why is that? Why isn't he the one who is worried? He's not worried about losing you EVEN THOUGH HE CHEATED MORE THAN ONCE. Stop being a clingy wife! It isn't attractive. He isn't attracted or he would be in your bed. You have to have the physical improvements with the attitude you are a strong, sexy, valuable woman who any man would be crazy for not making her top priority in life.

Oh, and about the rings. He's right, nobody notices! But you make a big deal out of it and he's turned off by it.

He needs to wonder about you. He needs to be the one chasing you. But I can tell you that a WAS hates it when the S shows insecurity and weakness. Their POV about those traits are not how it should be, but it is what it is.

Don't settle for being his "best" gal. (If I remember right, it was his pet name for you, but you see my point?) Put yourself up high on the pedestal and shine so bright it knocks his eyes out. Most of all, let him see that you are priceless. When he sees you in that light.....he'll want you. He won't want to take the chance of losing someone that great.

Please, do not think I'm suggesting that GAL should be loose living, bar hoping, flirting, etc. Sometimes that may work with a few....but sometimes it backfires. But I do think you need to be out when he is in. Then, don't answer his questions, just be vague about your activities. Someday, when the M is stable, it won't have to be like this...but now it does.

Last night my H went to work, and later I get a text from him at 2a saying "been drinking. Staying at Jim's tonight. Good night." so I texted back for him to call me, to which he replied, "No. talk tomorrow, going to sleep." I was really hurt and disgusted, because it seems like there's always something else, and this is the first time he has claimed to be sleeping somewhere else. He's been drinking a lot more these days, and often comes home after having a few, after (or during) work. I don't know what would make this night any different, and I didn't necessarily trust what he was saying. I wrote him back something about "too drunk to drive, but you can drive to Jim's side of town" and eventually fell back to sleep. I was pretty angry about it though, and couldn't believe he was not coming home.

At about 5:30a, he texts back "whatever". I started to write back but stopped. I just felt like a &%$ doormat. I couldn't understand why he'd sleep at some guy's studio apt now, when all the other times he just comes home. My mind was racing with thoughts of "Detach more? Leave? Be patient? Don't mention it? Put my foot down??" I finally said a prayer about it and went back to sleep.

20 minutes later he comes home (about 6a). He walks in and this was our conversation:

Me "What are you doing?"

H: (slurring) I don't want to answer a bunch of questions, if you want me to leave I will.

Me: I just don't understand what's going on with you. What do you mean, you'll leave?

H: tonight, if you want me to leave I can go somewhere. I don't want to talk about anything, I want to sleep.

Me: I just don't know what you're doing anymore. You texted me in the middle of the night, so you involved me in it.

H: I didn't want to worry you.


Me: why did you come home now?

H: I couldn't sleep and I'm sick. I'm going to sleep, I'm going to sleep til 11, clear out some stuff in the house for the (new) house cleaning person, and go to work tomorrow. I don't know why you think that it's about another person.

Me: I didn't say it was about that. I I don't even know if you love me anymore. I have a husband who doesn't make it home from his work shift and has been drinking almost every night. I'm concerned about you. I don't know you right now.

H: I haven't stayed out late a lot. I always come home.

Me: You came home at 4am a few weeks ago. I have no idea what you do, and I haven't been asking.

H: that was one time! In these last 3 months since I've been going through something, I would've been with someone by now if that's what I was doing.

Me: I didn't say I thought you were with someone, but I have no idea what you're doing, because you don't tell me. I care about you, I'm your wife, and you've completely checked out emotionally. Do you want me to smile as I watch you destroy yourself?

Then I went to sleep. I saw a receipt for a bar last night near his job, so I guess that's where he was. I don't know if I believe he went to this other guy's apt. Part of me doesn't believe he was out drinking with him either. But what do I do? It's like things have been getting better in some ways, but worse or totally removed in others. What he said last night led me to believe that he is going through stuff that doesn't have to do with me, although his reasoning for not being intimate or close to me in any way is because of me. I can't keep taking blame for everything. I am still working on how I can avoid explosive arguments, and instead try to come at it from a calm (sometimes) demeanor, but I honestly don't know what to do here.

Hi Sandi, and thank you. I didn't see your reply as I was just posting (another head banging experience from last night, haha) but you make more than enough sense! Just one quick thing: as far as I know he's only had 1 A in the past, not 2. I hope I don't find out otherwise, but you are absolutely correct in that I'm accepting crumbs by even asking qs and letting him control our R. I thought I was doing really well with the detaching but I have to step it up into high gear is right! Oy vey. Thank you again for your insight. I have a lot of work to do still.

Bestgal,

Over the course of a marriage it is normal for people to fall in and out of love with each other. How you feel, however, is less important than what you do. If we hit a patch when we don't feel "in love", we are still responsible for supporting and working with our spouse, and often if we act loving, then loving feelings will follow. I'm not aiming that at you, I'm giving you that as background.

I say this because you are now in a cycle where your H is not "in love" with you. He may still love you, but he is not "in love", and the lack of those feelings mean that he is not motivated to give you what you need. Over the recent course of your marriage, his "love bank" was depleted, and he eventually got to the point where he couldn't take it anymore. He took that hurt and rather than trying to work through it with you, he went outside the marriage. Since then, he's been willing to "co-habitate" with you, but has established some inflexible boundaries that he will not tolerate the things that used to bother him anymore. He is blocking you from refilling his "love tank", because he does not trust that you have changed, and is afraid that if he goes there again, he'll get re-invested, things will go back to how they were, and he will once again be hurt. Better to keep you at arm's length than to go through that emotionally exhausting exercise.

At the same time, you are operating from the perspective of a "married person", where our spouse owes us some common courtesies, *should* act loving toward us, *should* be willing to share their feelings, *should* be willing to explain their actions. The boundaries he has established have intruded upon your needs, so you are no longer able to get them met and feel miserable. Your hurt and longing in this regard are causing you to do things that "look like" old behaviors to him, and that is triggering him to run.

He is willing to live with you as a roommate and a friend -- but that's all he's going to give you right now. When you ask for more than that, he's going to get angry and withdraw. You've been pushing him lately -- pushing him for R talks, pushing him for intimacy, pushing him to discuss his feelings, and you're getting backlash as a result.

So here's where you are -- you have to treat him as a person who owes you *nothing*, and you may have to live that way for a long time. Can you do that? Often being in these situations takes so much from us that it prevents us from moving forward. I agree with what Sandi says, the path out of this is drop the rope and GAL.

There are generally 2 positions in a relationship, the "one up" position, and the "one down" position. The one up person calls the shots and the one down person copes with it. Over a relationship those roles can switch back and forth multiple times, but when you are "one down", like you are now, you cannot guilt/beg/plead/reason/nag your way back to the power position. You can only do that by at least appearing to want it less.

Can you do that?

Accuray