TVS--I do think that "parent" dynamic is big...her Mom tried real hard to praise, validate, etc, but her dad...he's the one who abused her sexually and then emotionally abandoned afterwards, pushing her hard away. W and I have talked about that and how it probably set this "there is wrong with me" and "I'm not good enough", etc deeply into her since childhood.
She also told her a while ago that her life purpose and self-image (tying back to what rH asked) was being a young Mom with young kids, and that when she went back home for her dad's funeral and spent a good portion of the summer there, the 2 younger ones changed from getting along and being perfectly happy doing simple things like going to the park with Mom to wanting more than that, and starting to fight and separate. She knew that "her time" and job was going to change and end someday. This was in 2008, where I place the beginning of her mlc and the denial stage...she just wasn't "right" after that summer.
As has been posted here, eventually the details come out, but never as soon as we wish.
Oh, and throw in peri-menopause and the hormonal tides getting whacked more than usual...
Perfect storm...
As far as how she came about accepting that maybe she was mlc, that was my going with my intuition that she was open to an idea from me and dropping the seed, and letting her research it herself. I did use some examples from the mlc'ers who posted here..."Oh, W, that sounds like what XX, who went through MLC, said she thought/felt/etc, in my forum"...
Sort of like when I found out about her then current meds completely changing the patients personality, turning off the empathy chip, the lawsuit, etc...I know we are both natural med oriented, and she hated spending the $$ for the meds, so I dropped the seed and the forum link (not here, this forum, elsewhere) regarding this issue and away she went...Next visit to her ob/gyn, she asked about the med, ob/gyn said she would never prescribe that and started her on a nice tame wellbuterin course, which seemed to lead to her re-connecting with the kids and family again. She has since gotten up her courage to drop that as well, she is determined to kick this depression's a$$ without any chemical help...she has accepted that the work is within, and the meds were just covering up the symptoms (in the case of the first med, which coincided with both rounds of replay) and in the second, taking the edge off long enough for her to gather herself up.
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
So, T^2, I hadn't really realized your W has been in MLC since 2008. Same as my H. I REALLY FEEL for you!! I'm so tired of this crap! So ready to be done! So ... done.
But then my H cries and looks at me, and I feel so much pity for him trapped in his tiny world, wanting so much to break out of it but can't.
Or he chases me like a teenager wanting that affection and sex just to put a bandaid on it for a while. It reminds me of better days and it's too easy to want to go there.
But then I hafta hear about him looking for a new true love, the real love of his life. She is out there somewhere he says (not sitting in front of him holding his hand or stroking his chest, obviously).
I never pictured having to grow and learn in life as coming from a situation like this. But in a strange sort of way (like a broken bone that healed wrong and has to be rebroken) I AM glad I have the opportunity to be here for my own growth.
I'm not so sure I'm glad of the opportunity to help my H. Wish someone else had done the job years ago. But here we are and I'm determined to make lemonade outta my lemons!
Now some focus on you. You've put so much thought into your W. You are the perfect combination of brain, braun, romance and sensitivity (the music). It drives me wild to see/hear a manly man write/sing about the depths of his soul.
Your W should be so grateful for what she has in you. And maybe she really is! But she has this history of pain caused by her father that I (and many people) have never had to experience. And a history in her heart of how she has reacted to that. I've never had that. I can't imagine that kind of past. I'm so sorry for her. For you.
But you said a long time ago, something like, maybe that's why we are here. To help them. It's so hard to help someone who keeps pushing you away, but we've got to do it.
Thanks tons for your influence all over this board. The time you spend absorbing, writing, helping, encouraging. We are all so grateful.
Me54/H47 '08 H is "done" March '12 H moved out Brink of D, December '12 2014 totally reconciled! ...... "I firmly believe in the...absolute possibility of marriage renewal." Jim Conway
Wow great post RH! See T you rock!! also totally unrelated to really anything, you said you like to read too, I'm finishing up a book you may enjoy its called Blue Like Jazz nonreligious thoughts on Christian spirituality by Donald Miller. I've enjoyed reading it.
i have a question. once (i think it was you - offering man insight - and it was sound) you said I should listen more to h - since he didn't feel "heard" - and try to find the message. (i'm paraphrasing here- it was long ago- but i was just mulling it over in light of something i read this morning somewhere- you and some other folks chatting)
here's what i want to know. you are rite- i DO need to listen & concentrate on what i'm "hearing". that being said- alot of our problems here (i think) are that h does not (and never ever has) talk about his feelings. hence- the i need to listen harder to figure out what's going on. .
HOWEVER - finding out that he's been such a HUGE liar for sooo long (apparently) (by his own admission) - and has said many many things that are quite "final" and awful- lately- - - - and upon reflection- over the years has said things that he didn't even remember (but were emblazoned on my mind - both good and bad) and doesn't even know he said them (geeeeZ) - so- what the heck is a woman to do???
and EVERYONE says don't listen to what they say and don't be swayed by what they do- (wacky mlc) -
do i listen & "hear" and take it to heart? do i ignore it all- it's alllllll lies and never will be anything el se??? do i have to view it half and half since he's probably done both- but at moment i view his as lying if he's talking... which is a mighty huge strain- the sifting and sifting, etc.
am in a momentar4y quandry where nothing seems right. i(we) do not talk about r- m - "us" anythng like that. i'm getting better and better about NOT going there. the not communicting does get to me- it's wierd and lonely.
he acts like everyday life- but in my land it's anything but. i just flow along- what the heck am i suppose to do with all the things he's said for all those years - and all these years - jumbling around in there- some of the things i based my very future on for 35 yrs or so - are/were lies, i do not know what to think about what..
any insight abouty remaining normal or calm or both? and where to aim???
thanks if u care to share or have a man's view of this communication issue i've got and cannot make heads or tails of -
I appreciate the compliments (I'm learning how to do that better these days).
nero -- Your communication issue is going to be difficult because H is in mlc, so he lies to himself about current things, past things, he may consciously believe his lies. I remember W saying something about the past, and the kids and I just looking at each other thinking, wth? They challenged her that she was happy during the event, she denied, they persisted, she ended up just saying "Well, that wasn't the real me!" That she had been happy then did not fit with her current mind frame, so deny, lie, whatever...her current mind set was NOT to be challenged. That's where the believe nothing they say comes into play.
Moving on to men and talking, especially about feelings...we can and will, but for many/most men (and maybe a lot of people), we don't open up the feelings door unless we are convinced that we will be heard and listened to regarding the every stuff. If that is proven, then we can risk the emotional/feelings stuff...make sense? Have you really "listened" to H in the past consistently? For example, I would talk to my W about work, but she isn't into engineering and science, so I would see her eyes glaze over while I was talking, she would start noticing the cobweb in the corner, whatever...so I quit talking about work. I wasn't being listened to. Or, she would wait for a pause (sometimes) and then take over the conversation with her stuff and go off on all these tangents, etc and whatever I had been talking about was long forgotten...I felt like "Why did I even bother to try and include her in my day? And she says I don't talk enough, well heck, I try, but get run over..."
Another thing, are you interested in something he is passionate about? If not, can you spend a few minutes a day becoming familiar with it so you can ask him knowledgeable questions to show that you value what he is interested in? Heck, all of us humans like it when people ask us and listen to us talk about things we are passionate about, right?
Also, I was a crappy listener the past few years for W because as W was talking I was thinking of how I could fix her problem, or make it better, or whatever...I wasn't giving her my full attention as I was pre-occupied with what I was going to say next. I have changed this within myself, I listen fully and keep my own thoughts at bay. I read somewhere that a good communicator listens 70% of the time, talks 30%...seems to be working for me so far, both in home life with W and the kids, to work life, etc.
I distilled all that down to this simple axiom: "T^2, STFU. Just S.T.F.U"
Here is a quote from a Psych Today article that helped me see where I was lacking in my listening skills:
Quote:
1. Listen
Listening sounds like a pretty easy thing to do. We do it every day, right? I used to think I was a good listener but I know now I was an okay listener. When friends talked to me I couldn't escape my thoughts. Rather than focusing on what they were saying, what I was sensing from them or what they might need from me, I focused on what I was going to say. Oftentimes, I interrupted them to say it.
The things I said often weren't even for their benefit. For example, if I heard something that made me uncomfortable or even triggered me, I wanted to reassure them and end the conversation. So I would say, "Well, I wouldn't worry about that" or, "That's no big deal." But they were worrying about it and it was a big deal to them. In my effort to reassure, I didn't listen at all. I dismissed their concerns.
I still do this, but a lot less often. I know the difference between really listening to someone and just kind of listening but mostly focusing on my feelings. Now, I try--admittedly not always successfully--but I try to really listen. I started learning how to do this in therapy when I noticed that the psychiatrist with whom I worked listened so well. On the rare occasions when his listening skills weren't their sharpest I noticed how different my time with him felt.
I learned about listening in a more profound way from my partner. I experienced through her what it felt like to have someone you care about really hear you. It's an amazing feeling to not be brushed away. I know she works at being a good listener, but she is also a keen observer. She can sit and listen and doesn't seem to be anywhere else than with the person to whom she's talking. She doesn't typically go to her fear to respond or need to end the conversation. She can tolerate the pain the person is in to be in it with them, without being pulled into it.
By watching and talking with her I have become a better listener. Not as good as I want to be, but I keep trying. As I get better, people seem to feel more comfortable sharing their thoughts with me. People talk about their anxiety, fear, and despair and I am better able to wash away my fears, my anxiety, and my uncertainty to focus on them. I have found that when we listen intently without a need to do something about what we're hearing, people will share more with us.
When we ask survivors to speak out against their abuse, we have to know how to listen, really listen.
Hope that helps some, nero.
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
T^2, great post! I needed to take this to heart, as well!
I was very inspired by the quote from PschToday and looked up the article and read it and some other articles as well about R's. It was so helpful for me. Thank you SO much!
I've done the glazing over thing too many times to H and other people I love. It's time to make changes.
I loved the suggestion about learning about what someone else is interested in. That is good, solid advice and can go a long way in restoring communication. (also helpful to review just before visiting relatives at Thanksgiving )
Sometimes I feel very much like the way you describe your W, it's scary. I'm so grateful I don't have the abuse background. I admire her for continuing to try to become a balanced and loving adult. I'm sure it's been a tough road for her.
Me54/H47 '08 H is "done" March '12 H moved out Brink of D, December '12 2014 totally reconciled! ...... "I firmly believe in the...absolute possibility of marriage renewal." Jim Conway
you're rite he does lie to himself- rewrite history- etc - BUT what if i'm wrong and it's not mlc - am i possibly deluding myself about who & what he is/was?
i saw myself in your one description of conversation with w- that he tells me something and in my zeal to need to "fix" it - or support him - and spin off into some "story" i'm thinking will help.
i listen okay - i do talk alot too tho. he has said a million times he picked me because he likes it (am i supposed to now be someone else? i'm waaaaay more silent - BUT) - now it's a problem (since he has a computer & cellphone life (ow)'s(a big part of our disconnect - his total computer addiction *(he even admits it)). he wears his ocd like a little badge of honor - it was me for 20 yrs, now not) wtf??????!!!
(. i think your insight about becoming interested in his interests is a good idea. . his anniliation of all trust- makes it difficult to want to even know him - much less woo him.
his loves: computer- cellphone - tennis -technology- - ow(s)???!!!
additionally- finding out about his affairs thru e-mails & cellphone - make it impossible(so far) for me to embrace them - they are part of "the enemy" to me - - -- his LIFE tho... last nite from bed i hear him talking(i thought to me brushign my teeth) - so i began to answer and realized he was talking to the computer so it could look something up-- - that says it all about our life-
it s_cks - even if you're self- sufficient & know who you are as a person & woman- there's something so crappola about being replaced by stupid machines(i'm not kidding) - laptops on the couch table, nitestand, kitchentable, his computer room- phone in car & kindle thing - ta da. he doesn't interact w/ me - just them.
& tennis- he's played since a child - very well . - his lives HAVE TO BE separate. he adores it (i never knew because he just stopped while he was working away) when i met - - - til he retired- then ka bam- lives for it, but i've never seen him play- don't know his tennis friends, am not welcome in that part of his life- it's soooo wierd i don't even know where to begin. i got "kicked out" of his life so suddenly & completely in favor of new compulsions - -
how does one even try to participate? it seems tooo huge to me- honestly i can't think how to begin to show interest . if it were all these things - but no ea - i'd say okay, doable with work. the whole ow thing puts such a insurmountable feeling slant to things. So "traded in" on so many levels -
it sounds shabby- i am not sure (what or if) I "want" (from or with) this man. true i'm here- (wtf is up with that). he is too - wtf again????
he does lie to himself- he is rewriting history - i can't bring myself to want to talk to him because his delusional goop is so absurd i don't know what the heck to respond to it. it's scary- he sounds crazy to me. he acts like it's all not there- we go about our day as "usual".
i think what you said applies to me - more angles to inspect and work on. I can work on being a more effective listeneer & communicator. & will - i'm no prize myself.
even if i'm not feeling the intense grief & pain- i still am stumped about how you get ow in some sort of place where it's not merely a judgement/discarding of me.?? it's personal- she gets the conversation & texts & so on- oh yeah , lets not forget affection, attention, sex & devotion. '
looking up that mountain side this morning and it looks mighty high - helloooooo up there - yo da lady-e-hoooooo.....
oh yeah - i forgot. i love your formula and it's my new matra - stfu- you know, i thought i invented that a bunch of years ago- oh man.....
i'm tryin, that one will stand me in good stead across the board in life- no matter which way this goes w/ h.
your thoughts & formula helped alot.
the psych article was interesting- but not so much me. part of my problem is people come from far and wide to "tell me" stuff. it wears me out- i do listen - i try and make thoughtful comment or treat their "story" like i'd want someone to deal with me. I get it that we're all human and feel the same things- i can feel their pain or discomfort- i would never ever downplay or disregard anyone's anything- everyone has their dignity & right to kindness & compassion-
with h - idk - maybe i've spent too much time talking to women? &* i s_ck atmen?
just wanted to say i'd think taking off the ring was okay- it's symbolic and sends a message from you about the whole 'separate lives" thing. i wish i had one to take off.
my h lies and lies about ow - and i read the darn texts with my own eyes- i saw her naked pixon computer for God's sake- yet this dope lied (and initially i believed). God save us from our own trust sometiems.
anyway- i feel fried about the lying too - of everything- that offends me most. that in the face of your courage to ask- they chicken out and lie.
i don't know how to incorporate it- i will be interested to see wehre your intellect & heart lands on this issue. it's big & awful- i got nothin
also totally unrelated to really anything, you said you like to read too, I'm finishing up a book you may enjoy its called Blue Like Jazz nonreligious thoughts on Christian spirituality by Donald Miller. I've enjoyed reading it.