Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers WAW seems to be making positive steps...whattodo?

Trying...my guts tell me to DO things, not wait...hard


Yes I believe she is confused. Thanks



I honestly don't know. She seemed to offer this info at a more "tender" moment (relatively) not when I was looking for info. I'm probably being naive.

I guess my best response is to treat her "AS IF" this were true?



Enlightening


Believe me I want to. Pretty sure she's not even trusting me enough to tell me her full point of view.


All my energy seems to go into my pain. I yearn for contact. I ache to talk to her and be with her...probably seems pathetic. I can not fathom not being in love with her. I haven't showed her she is top of my heart, but she is.



Think so. One of her 1st statements to me after 2 weeks no contact was "Can't you see I had to leave?" I said "Yes, I can. I don't agree with where you went, but I understand your leaving."

Since then, I have only mentioned her living situation when she has brought it up, or asked why kids won't talk to her. The truth, according to them, is because of where she is living, what she is doing. I have been sugar coating this for her. Should I stop?

I would find it so much easier to wait if she were alone or with friends instead of OM.


They are refusing to respond to her texts, on their own. My oldest S the 1st time she contacted him, explained why. No real attempts since (Texts "Hi, love you, miss you") These are not 4 year olds. How does she expect them to believe those words?


Wow. Helps, but doesn't, at same time, if you know what I mean.

So right now, I'm trying to wait for her to contact me. (Friday) this is going to be hard. OM has weekend jail sentence...loser. Past 2 Saturdays we met to "talk". If she doesn't contact, do I ask her for the meet?

So so so confused....

So you read DR. Would you say the above is consistent with the DR message of getting a life and detaching?



No.



Read DR, or if you already did then read it again, slower this time.

DM

you are coming across as someone who won't listen. I say that b/c the book you say you have read more than once, answers your questions and so have we.

We want your m to work and the fact that the OM is in jail on weekends is, imo, great news. So your focus MUST be on becoming the better choice.

I know you think you already are, and you are probably mostly right. But as a husband, it sounds as if, (no offense okay, but you need to get this)

imo, you have been a bully to her.

Raising your voice is an act of intimidation. When my father did it, OR my h, I literally no longer cared or even "heard" the content of what he said. I felt berated so the content of the words was totally irrelevant. I was being bullied. This is especially true if you are physically larger than your w.

You admit you are critical of her and that isn't loving. Ironically, SHE is the one who worked two jobs to compensate for your persisting at a failure endeavor. Maybe it's a need to be "right" or a form of stubborness that served you well elsewhere, but it's NOT helping you in the marriage.

Did you ever really THANK her for all her work? I get the impression you didn't. You were negatively focussed on your business and didn't notice the negative impact your choices had on her.

NOW she's gone...

Your constant need to contact her or get her to read something to change her mind, instead of addressing her numerous valid complaints about you being mean, impatient, critical to her AND allowing her to work TWO jobs while you stubbornly pursued a losing proposition, is a lot for you to work on.

I am not sure your energy ought to be aimed at what SHE should read. Like I said, let her/your counselor make suggestions to you both. Have you done any individual counselling or reading on not being critical? On better listening?

Shouldn't that be your focus?

We suggest you detach, lovingly. That is to protect you AND so you can Work on YOU and after sufficient time, let her notice the differences in you.

She fell in love w/you for a reason. What were you like THEN? Be that guy again.

Listen to her...and if she comments on your changes you thank her and move along (or say something like "Thanks, I needed to work on that.")

IF she says "too little too late" -which she may believe at the moment-- your reply has to be consistent with the idea YOU WANT to make these changes anyhow

so it's not about HER coming home.... b/c the changes were needed in order for you to become the man you once were OR the man you were meant to be.

You may even thank her for the "awakening" b/c I'm betting you'll be less critical with the kids too. That will make you a better dad. If you say you were never critical or short tempered with them or that you were lovingly attentive, then in a way it's weirder b/c it means you took out your frustrations on your w, the last person who deserved it. OR are these traits you more or less distributed around?

If the kids ask what is going on, you can own YOUR PART in why she left.

Kids need to know they are loved and your son not believing it, is sad. Your job is to protect them not to punish her. I am not saying to lie for her but I DO think you played a role in this and you can't hide.

PLUS you want her return to the family to be as smooth as possible. So model for the kids what that would look like.

As for the OM, that's a toughie. Some folks around here want you to expose her (which I think is the same as punishing or shaming and does NOT work long term)

but more importantly, it's NOT the DB way and if you are in doubt, read the book again.

You seem torn between your need to DO something, (which we all had!!!) and what you know will be interpreted as "controlling" by the WAS.

And sometimes NOT doing anything is the best thing to do...

DBing is about only working on what you CAN control, and that's just YOU.
Doing more of what helps the m, and less/none of what hurts it.

your wife has done you a favor be specifically listing things for you to change.


My biggest regret in my sitch was the energy I spent on wondering WHY my h was doing what he was doing, (he never said he wanted a divorce but was fine living 3000 miles away on his 'mission' to live on the last frontier-which was new behavior on his end but it lasted a long time)

and I obsessed way too long and too much about what his thoughts/feelings plans were. (None of which I had any control over!)

Instead, I could have turned the focus onto myself and creating a better future for ME and my children, a lot faster than I had....but once I did, I became happier.

That increased peace of mind and happiness made me a lot more forgiving and a lot more pleasant to be around.

I had realized in a "moment of clarity" that My pain and anger prevented me from being fully present with my kids, b/c I was so pre-occupied with my pain/anger. So my kids were losing 2 parents, not just one.

Letting it go and working on ME, helped ME and it helped my kids too. Paradoxically, by focusing on myself and what I COULD "Do" something about

my peace of mind and heart, eventually lead my h to seem intrigued and interested. I know he feared I'd never forgive him or I'd throw it in his face whenever we fought or hold it over his head. But when I "applauded loudly the 1% positives he did" and "LISTENED like a lover" (NOT easy but very helpful and what my DB coach suggested)

it made almost an instant difference in our r.

Holding onto your pain and putting your energy into that pain, isn't serving your cause.

I am posting something about lovingly detaching to you (soon) but for now I hope this helps.

Read the book AGAIN and stop resisting it. Let it sink in. Trust that it can work.

Either choose to do ONE approach and give it a chance to work,

or do a differernt one.

But doing conflicting approaches at the same time,

is setting yourself up for certain failure.
She needs a consistent NEW/DIFFERENT behavior from you so

if you do different inconsistent acts, and or just use more words-- they

cancel out your efforts and you spin your wheels thinking you are "trying"-

but in actuality you are fighting yourself.

Make sense?

If you are able, hire a DB coach and talk to one. I found them very specific and very helpful. I had a great one and truly she made the single biggest difference in our outcome.

Good luck

Look up project happily ever after. good book.

I am trying to change my thinking. The DR goes against mainstream thinking and gut reactions, I think it even says that. Please don't give up on us!

Yes. I grieve over that. I chafe at the word "bully", bust must admit it is true.


Yes. I think I was able to "180" in this area last night? See below...


Thanked her, but not enough. A card or note here and there, quarterly at most.


Yes, lots to work on. And that's where I need to focus. Counseling yes. Counselor had us read Cracking the Communication Code. W said she put it down when 1st few chapters talked about respecting each other because she doesn't respect me right now.

She is scheduled for counseling on 11/11 or 12.

We suggest you detach, lovingly. That is to protect you AND so you can Work on YOU and after sufficient time, let her notice the differences in you.

Seems like most or all the things I did back then would push her away now.

we had this type of exchange a couple weeks ago.

I believe from the beginning I was successful shielding kids from SOME of my nastiness. Sarcasm, etc. Other things like intimidation to get obedience not so much.

Kids know what's going on. I have owned my part with them and apologized, asked forgiveness for not being the man I should be. We pray together for her often, that her heart would soften.



There is no exposing. Everyone knows where she is.

YES

Thank for your help. Since my last post, here's what has happened. I think I did some 180's?

15 yr old son...phone call from school..disruptive in class..discussed it with him rather than yelling, etc.

Missed bus...same, just said aww man now we'll all be late..

W texted she wants to see kids, can't live w/out them. I texted back do you want me to talk to them and see what they say? She said ok.

She called w/in hour. Teary. "I know what they are going to say". I have to be careful here because what I want and what the kids insist on happens to be the same. Asked if she thought about their feelings. Said she thought they should be glad because she got out of a very sad situation for herself..............I eventually was able to say, in so many words, my actions over years have communicated lack of love to her. Her actions, though directed at me, are perceived as lack of love by them. Shotgun effect. We mentioned several living options for her, friends, I move out, etc. but she said "can't just move, there's details" Me "what details" her "Don't want to talk about it, I just seem to hurt everyone I touch" Me, "well your actions communicate to kids that they are less important to u than this man" I told her how our feelings at wedding blinded us to possibility of now, and feelings now blind to possibility of better future. Can't remember whole conversation, it was 30 minutes, but thats the gist. I was not loud. Not happy, either, but calm I think in light of the topic. What I learned is she's stuck on this guy somehow. She said "I don't know what to do" at want point. "I said what's the right thing?" she said " I know the right thing. Your always right. I have to do what you want to do what's right. It's so black and white for you u always know what to do ... I took opportunity to AGAIN say something like, for years I've been doing wrong to you, hurting you, so no, not always right. I'm telling you I am repenting of all that. Some things are black and white. I don't fault u for needing time away from me I've been terrible. But the adultery issue is black and white.

Later she texted me "sorry if I was nasty" I said me too.

Later she went to a banquet, where my daughter also attended. Afterwards she texted "d looked beautiful as usual. Afraid to speak to her. But so happy to see her."

I said "takes after her mom" 180?

She said "ha.nope she is gorgeous"

I said "it breaks my heart that you saw d and weren't able to speak to her" 180?

She said "me too. Wanted to but didn't want to upset her."

I said "How can I help you"180?

She said " just pray that the old (name withheld) will come back.

Me, "Every minute of every day. You must know that"
Her "I have been praying more-Every day even. That's progress"
Me "yes. Reading Bible?
Her "No"
Me, " Need one?"
Her, "kindle"
Me psalms
Her ok easy.
Me ha. Some are, I read 51 a lot. And 77 and 88

Conversation dwindled to good night, and maybe well talk tomorrow.

Progress? I know the phone conversation may have gone into territory it shouldn't?

24 hours since last contact. My fears: a) She will never contact me again, even though last exchange was positive. b) She will interpret this as playing games, or that I don't love her or want to talk to her.

Meanwhile i read al turtle web site nearly all day. Learned Much about my terrible communication style, studied much on mirroring technique. Looking for opportunity to use it.

Day 2 no contact...

Yes read Cracking the Communication Code...I've read so much since then I'll start it again.

Why most of the things I did back when we fell in love would push her away: I PURSUED her. Planned romantic dates, surprised her at work or home with flowers, cooked for her, wrote her long love letters, took her on dates SHE would enjoy, (ie she loves movies and tv, I'd rather do something where we could talk) Drove her to any appointments especially in city. (We live in a rural area and she doesn't like city driving, especially when we were young) Come to think of it, we were still doing many of these things recently, not as often except I cooked several times per week, with her working so much. How ever IN BETWEEN those good times, my communication style change to that of the bullying. @&&$$&@&$#% (cussing my self)

I talked to her totally different back then.

Why are the kids punishing her? Why is she punishing me? Or does anyone reject anyone... W is going to have to win back kids IMO, as I have to win back W.

Black and white as to adultery self serving...It's my belief. If expressing it seems self serving, or will drive her away I need to express differently or not at all.

"skips over vows...validity to her claims" ABSOLUTELY. As I have told her, I am ASHAMED of my lack of provision. I am mortified at where I let the relationship go. What have I gotten out of reading the Bible? Those who won't care for their loved ones have denied the true faith and are worse than unbelievers! That I need to love my W as Christ loved the church, in that he laid down His life for it. My pride is dead. My sense of manhood is dead, yet I am willing to love her and take her back. And yes, love is a decision and an action. A whole lot of actions. And a decision every day to commit all over again.

I know now she hasn't felt that. How can I make her feel it? Does she need a certain $ amount of income? How will I ever find any of this out?

WHY DO THEY ALL KNOW?
Here's the sad story. She had been living at sisters for 10 days or so. Talked every day. Invited us over for dinner, visited home every day, nearly. brought laundry home for me to do, etc. then one evening she stopped calling, texting everyone, even kids. Told sister she was working late. After not being able to reach her, went to her work. Closed. Car not there. Went to OMs house. Car was there but garage was so dark I didn't see it. At this point i believed she must be out with friends from work or staying with one. Next morning still no contact. At one point I knew how many hours since contact...we'd never gone that long in our lives. Checked sisters house. Drove to OMs again to "clear my mind". I STILL didn't really believe she was there. But she was. Her car in garage. My heart broke in a thousand pieces. I knocked on the door, called for her, no one would come or talk to me. They called police, and I was arrested for trespassing. Friend of her sisters works on dispatch, called the family to let them know what was going on. This was NOT a scene youd see on Cops or some show like that. I was literally bawling...desperate, needy...a thousand steps backward. Never heard of DB at that time. I wish I had made a thousand different decisions that day, but that's how all the family found out.

I don't want to shame my wife. I knew about OM when she went to sisters. Did not tell anyone. Saw her friends at grocery, etc... They asked about her, not knowing what's going on, oh shes fine, give her a call. She knew I was protecting her from judgment of others so she could come back soon.

Why did I ask if she thought about kids feelings? To try to point out to her that she is placing R w/OM above R w/kids. To manipulate her OUT of his house. To try for a fair shot at Reconciling (does R mean relationship or reconcile?)

I am trying to learn actions and words to make her feel loved when she comes back. How can she believe these kids are feeling loved by her?

I will freely admit to being dense but when I KNOW I am hurting someone I love I STOP, at least temporarily until I forget again.

By shotgun effect I mean she took aim at me with her actions but instead of a rifle it was a shotgun that hurt the whole family not just me.

The words you crossed out about wedding day feelings were from DR, shouldn't I have shared them with her as hope?

My wrongs are not murky. I have a bullet pointed list. Sent her a letter detailing them and asked for feedback. If she was honest, I was pretty close to target. Or maybe even she doesn't know all of them.

The name withheld was hers. She has said numerous times the old
W is gone, or I felt some of the old me come back...those are good days.

What am I learning here...(I assume you mean since this all started)
-That my happiness has been based on my relationship w/W, and that has been a sham for the past I don't know how long. The whole GAL thing I read about is totally unappealing right now. I don't want a life. I want a life with my wife.
-To own my part of the breakdown.
-That I have been a bully to the ones I love without even knowing it.
-The very thought of losing my wife scares me to death. I feel adrenaline surges many times each day.
-Her feelings are her feelings, don't argue how she feels.
-Empathize

Counterintuitive, but works better than my techniques:
-Detachment...when she 1st went to OM, I read somewhere (not here) "don't contact for 30 days, they usually contact in two weeks." She contacted me in 10 days to arrange a meet. That was one of our most substantial conversations. Yet it feels WRONG to not contact her. Even now we are mostly pleasant when we talk.
-Don't bring up the relationship...I had not for several days, when Friday she did...perhaps I handled it wrong, but "detaching" from bringing it up for a while seemed to work to bring it out of her.

Yes, read the rules for newbies.

How long must I detach? Eventually household finances will need to be discussed, as my income doesn't cover the bills.

Will we ever talk about the relationship? What should my goal be?

You are getting through. Be patient with me. This all seems so PASSIVE...not my nature when dealing with problems. I appreciate your help. I am trying to save for coach, but money is one of our biggest problems.

Update:
W texted me 9:20am "I'm sorry that I messed up our lives"
Did not text back right away.
About half hour later I sent "Things are messed up. But the blame goes to me, too. I would do things differently, and will be. I am going to do what it takes to be a source of blessing in your life rather than pain"

Wanted to chat more, restrained myself. Right thing?

More restraint: I am working a construction job near her office. Was sent to get lunch for the crew from subway on opposite side of her complex. Did NOT go around and snoop. Small thing
Aybe, but I was tempted for some reason.