what happened to all that "validation" stuff? Is that only meant for the MLC/WAS?
No the validation stuff isn't just for the MLC/WAS.
Crap, you just stumped me, maybe someone else will help me out...
I hate being validated. It feels phony to be on the receiving end of it, however I know that it works, especially to diffuse situations and definately with the MLCer...
It does work and to make an excuse as to why we don't practice it here on the boards more...would simply be an excuse.
I know why I don't like it and rarely use it, but I can't speak for others.
Fall through the first snow is also my favorite time of year.
Hey Wendy, you sound good...
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Mrsrjd, I have been trying to give you some time to just assimilate what has been written on your thread and read other threads…
I appreciate that and have indeed been reading.
Originally Posted By: cat04
I told you I had questions, which is something I tend to be very good at…
As well as general thoughts...
I hope that you don’t take any of them the wrong way because they are not meant with any malice, rather with curiosity and a hope that you will begin to be able to sort out your thoughts and feelings a bit…I apologize up front if anything is bothersome to you, although I will tell you and you have probably seen it written here in many threads, if something stings, it might be something you want to look deeper at.
Bring on the questions. Despite my "kid glove" reputation I'm not really EXTREMELY fragile - just MODERATELY fragile
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
Our marriage has not been paradise for a very long time but I really thought it was "ok" and chalked the lacks up to personality traits. If I were to grade the marriage I'd say C+ or B most of the time
Were you really ok with a C+/B marriage or did you wish that it could be better than that?
Better would of course have been better lol. But yes, I really was "okay" with the way things were.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
There have been 3 affairs that I know of. I found out about the 2nd one first. It was after 6 years of marriage and was with a girl who worked for my H. He even had me (stay at home mom) watch her son while... At the time of his confession of the affair he did not apologize and would not commit to being faithful in the future because having the affair just made him feel so good. I felt the kids were better off with an intact family so I sucked it up and stayed despite the anguish in my heart.
Did you really forgive your H for the first A that you found out about? Or did you just sort of sweep it under the rug and go on with living?
I thought I forgave my X for the first affair, but what I came to realize was that it was simply buried, and it affected how I interacted with him for the rest of our M.
I believe I did forgive him for the actual affair. The "sweeping" would pertain to how he handled the after-affair period. I now believe that time was probably the actual beginning of his MLC because his cruelty, arrogance and sense of entitlement were STUNNING. He made it clear then that if I didn't suck it up that I'd be on the curb. At the time our 4 children were under the age of 5. I remember making a conscious decision to compartmentalize and do everything I could to keep the family intact.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
After the confrontation H expressed desire to find someone to talk to. He doesn't have any friends and doesn't like the idea of professional help so that left him with me. In the interest of saving the marriage I tried to be objective and put aside my own heartache to help him with what he called "baggage". He felt there must be some large and compelling reason for him to be unfaithful because he simply doesn't see himself as "that kind of person".
This was an incredible thing to attempt. I realize as a W, we want our H to talk to us, and we hope that it can help the R, however this sort of set you up to receive the blame, he may have not been as open as he would have been with someone else, and I can only imagine how it tore at your heart.
Yeah well I had no idea what I was dealing with. He had used the term "baggage" and my personal definition of that term led me to expect revelations about pre-me issues. And, like so many other MLC sufferers on this forum, he has PLENTY of pre-me luggage. We had this particular discussion in bed and I have to tell you that when he told me what his "baggage" was I cried and cried and cried. In fact, I'm starting to cry now just writing this. And the reason it cut me so deeply was because it was the same sort of reasoning he gave me after the revelation of what I had thought of as the first affair. He rationalized his actions because of who I am. Yes, he has a laundry list of my faults; some are ridiculous (my brother didn't turn out to be like a brother to H. Seriously? My brother isn't like a brother to ME!!) and some are well founded (I am not a great housekeeper). And when I understood that for him "who I am" justifies his behavior...well I knew it was the end for us.
Because, ironically enough, just a few weeks prior to finding out about the EA I had had an epiphany. I had a thunderbolt idea that I was "okay" despite my many flaws. I gave myself permission to STOP beating myself up about my shortcomings. LOL I was actually feeling good about myself... possibly for the first time in I don't even know how long, decades maybe.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
In the first days I made our distance more obvious but was told by H that would defeat the purpose of bothering to stay together at all so unless I wished to expedite actual separation I should attempt to make things appear "normal".
My first thought on this is classic MLC. He is trying to put you in the driver’s seat of his decision. Setting you up to be the responsible party so that he doesn’t have to be the bad guy.
Possibly/ probably so. Plus, I think he's still comfortable with me/us. There isn't (so far) the avoidance I've read of in other sitches.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
I am not ready to leave financially or emotionally (not ready to break up my kids' home)so as of right now I could be called a hostage.
I remember this feeling. I felt very stuck for a long time. Eventually, I decided that I had to do something for myself. Because truly, the only one keeping me “hostage” was me. I started small. I began going to a church with some friends. I found that I really liked it. I always had faith and it gave me something to look forward to each week. It didn’t cost a lot of money (just what I put in the offering basket) and often, surpisingly, I found great comfort in what was talked about, and it gave me the opportunity to start seeing things a bit differently.
I don’t know if you are spiritual, many people discover their faith through this process, it is something to consider. Simply to get yourself out of the situation for a little while.
Eventually, I began doing other things as well, I found a friend to walk with once a week, began going to the malls and whatnot, even just to window shop. All of these things helped to empower me and allowed me to really get to know myself again.
Church is a funny topic right now. I have been a fairly regular attender throughout my adult life and many times felt it was my battery recharger and that it got me through the week. We were both attending regularly up until a few months ago but then our church changed pastors and well, we tried and tried, but the new pastor just didn't speak to us - spiritually. I have been thinking about trying a new church for some time actually and probably will sooner or later.
I have been walking regularly and I just love that, especially at this time of year.
Other diversions will have to wait for now because WOW ARE WE EVER BROKE. I mean scary broke - I've been unemployed for 7 months and H lost his job (DIRECTLY due to his MLC) a couple weeks ago. All 4 children still live at home - the older 2 have jobs and are semi-self-supportive, well actually the younger 2 have jobs as well but I don't expect them at 16 to self-support. We live in a small town that is about 25 miles from the mall/diversions/ job market. So a trip to the mall costs 7 or 8 dollars without even buying anything!
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
I suspect the man who courted me is long gone. Or never existed outside of my mind, hopes and dreams.
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
H doesn't want to think of himself as "that kind of person" and doesn't want to take ownership of his behavior.
Both of the above quotes are probably true. The man that courted you is long gone, although he did exist.
It is very normal for people in MLC to not want to take ownership of their behavior.
Eventually, as they come through the crisis, they begin to see what they have done, and some work through it and make amends, and some keep running because they can't deal with the fallout. No one can predict who will come through and who won't.
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
I am a class one doormat. My father was probably bi-polar although this was never diagnosed. His behavior, not entirely different than H's, taught me to walk on egg shells and keep my mouth shut.
Is being a doormat how you want to feel for the rest of your life?
I understand that it is a coping mechanism, however I have to question if you really believe it is a healthy way to deal with your thoughts and feelings?
I realize I am probably an odd duck here at DB for what I'm about to say, but while I hope H can survive and thrive, his future well being is not my primary concern. Maybe that sounded heartless. What I hope to get from DB is insight into the alien and strategies for my own recovery. Because I'm not interested in 20 more years just like the last 20. Nope, sorry, I'm tapped out.
That said, if in 2 years (assuming we do indeed remain intact that long) things are different, "we" are different, I wouldn't necessarily reject continuing the marriage. But "different" would have to be DIFFERENT.
As far as being a doormat; meh... probably not healthy or many other wonderfully sustaining or enriching adjectives. It was what I felt I HAD to do after the sort-of-first affair.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
So I don't know what I want. On strong days (minutes?) I want nothing. Other times, I want whatever I can get. Staying together until the twins turn 18 in two years does make sense so I'm fairly sure I want that.
I can see the logic in this. I realize the small sense of security it gives you right now as everything has been turned upside down.
Don’t waste this time though. Use it to make sure that when the “deadline” comes (because at this point you should probably assume that is what it is), that you are prepared.
What can you do to make the most of this time for your future?
I am working on the preparation thing. Due to the aforementioned financial issues preparation is taking alot of work. Interesting, isn't it, that to me preparation = finances. Now, wise Cat, is that because emotionally I am done with H or because emotionally I am in some sort of denial?
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
Is there a time when its ok to ask "Oh, by the way, still planning to leave?"
Yes there is a time when it is ok to ask that question. It will be when you are at a place that the answer won’t rip your heart out if the answer is yes.
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
I don't understand this at all. He treats me just the same and sometimes I wonder if I imagined "the bomb". But then I remember all the email exchanges with the ow. And now I notice how very one sided attention and affection are for us. (Although in the interest of detachment I have STOPPED reaching for him, telling him I love him etc) So I guess the bomb did occur...
Yes, I too remember feeling this way at times.
Learning about MLC will help you to understand this more and it won’t always feel so surreal.
Originally Posted By: Mrsrjd
I just can't fathom continuing to live "as usual" with someone I "don't love" and "don't want a future with" so its hard to wrap my head around his actions. And not being able to discuss it with him makes it even more bewildering.
This is how you feel. Your H probably feels that he can go on like this now because he probably feels as if he was living that way for a while. I know that sounds harsh but the truth is, they don’t just one day wake up and have this decision and then tell us.
Most often, it is something that has been brewing in their minds for a long time. So the relief that they feel when they tell us is great because they have finally gotten everything out in the open. And now, we should feel the same way.
Very often, they have no plan beyond telling us. Some of them then come up with a plan, others feel that by telling us, we will then take over and do the work to achieve the result (divorce) that they want.
Bingo, nail on the head here Cat. You quoted him verbatim. However, H is a very demanding fellow so the thought that he has been "silently suffering" - for years none the less, well that's pretty funny. This is a guy who complains about the thickness of eggshells and the grind of pepper.
And that's all I have time for for right now.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Another football Sunday here. H continues with "normal" behavior, as if bomb had never been dropped. He leaves tomorrow to visit his parents and an old friend (male). His parents' dog of 15 years just died and his father is very emotionally upset. H is both concerned and stung by this. The sting is because he remembers when at 15 his 3 yr old nephew died and FIL told H to "stop crying and get on with life". This sentiment sums up a lot of H's childhood experience. This death occurred just a year before H's parents left (H uses the word abandoned) him when they moved overseas.
I have a job interview Wednesday - yay! Fingers crossed. I continue to not initiate touching or speaking. I find H's continued desire to spend time with me, have night time "spooning", and be intimate bewildering. Other posts have stressed to pay more attention to actions than words, so how should I read his actions?
I am very wary. I'd give even odds on whether or not he returns from his trip and am fairly ambivalent about either result.
Strange times....
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Good luck w/the job interview. You'll need to keep all of your focus on yourself early this week so that you be prepared for the interview.
As for your h's behavior, i.e., spending time w/you, the night time spooning, etc., he may be one of the slower learners in mlc. Right now, you aren't putting any pressure on him, you've backed away and given him space. He doesn't feel threatened by you and he feels he can come closer to you. His actions are very similiar to a moth drawn to a candle.
He's let off some of his pent up steam when he dropped the bomb. Yes, once that happens, they do tend to act like nothing has happened until he feels that nagging feeling of being smothered or threatened once again. Authority figures tend to bring out the rebelling in them.
It shall be very interesting to see how he is after visting w/his parents. Especially w/his father so emotional over the death of the family pet. It may bring back reminders of his childhood and what may have happened back then.
Continue to give him plenty of space and time.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I don't get the whole authority figure thing. It's not like we are telling them you can't do this or that. We only tell them how their actions affect us and make us feel. It's okay for them to tell us if they don't like something but yet us telling them is us trying to control them?
M: 29, H: 31 D: 9 S: 8 T: 13 Y M: 9 Y ILYBIDKIILWY 12/09/2012 ~~~~ Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. ~~~ it Emptys today of its strengths
I hear you Lisa. There is nothing FAIR about the whole MLC situation. I find it helpful to remember - to think of my H as mentally afflicted at this time. Reasoning capacity of the MLCer is limited at best, can't expect them to maturely, rationally react to ANYTHING. So give them as little to react to as possible.
The DB method is hard hard hard. In large part because it expects the LBS to stand so very alone re the spouse. To me, its like seeing H walk around with a big double headed spear in his back. The spear hurts him and me (and us) but counter intuitively the only way to get rid of the spear is to leave it alone - can't even explain to H why he's having such pain (he can't see the spear and thinks I'm the crazy one when I tell him about it...)
Good luck to you.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Good luck w/the job interview. You'll need to keep all of your focus on yourself early this week so that you be prepared for the interview.
Thanks Snodderly. With him gone I guess I'll naturally get more of my attention!
Originally Posted By: snodderly
As for your h's behavior, i.e., spending time w/you, the night time spooning, etc., he may be one of the slower learners in mlc. Right now, you aren't putting any pressure on him, you've backed away and given him space. He doesn't feel threatened by you and he feels he can come closer to you. His actions are very similar to a moth drawn to a candle.
He's let off some of his pent up steam when he dropped the bomb. Yes, once that happens, they do tend to act like nothing has happened until he feels that nagging feeling of being smothered or threatened once again. Authority figures tend to bring out the rebelling in them.
It shall be very interesting to see how he is after visiting w/his parents. Especially w/his father so emotional over the death of the family pet. It may bring back reminders of his childhood and what may have happened back then.
Continue to give him plenty of space and time.
This whole trip should be VERY interesting. I am interested to see 1. If and when he contacts me 2. How things go with his parents. There is PLENTY of history/bad blood there. While they don't know the details of the "crisis" they know something is up and have said how glad they are to have stayed together (64 years!!) They tend to be VERY authoritarian... wish I could be a fly on the wall. 3. If and when he returns. He didn't give me a return day and I didn't ask. From odd comments I wouldn't expect him before Sat or Sun.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
You are right about that spear. It is so hard not to say anything.
Yay for you-- no tears. Tears- my nemesis my whole life. My face turns blotchy red, and stays red for hours--no hiding that I've cried. I wish there were a "No cry" pill.
I'm sorry for the hi-jack, but I wanted to respond to Lisa concerning authority figure.
Authority figure is any adult, wife, spouse, parents, supervisor, etc., that represents responsibiility and may very well voice a negative opinion or stop the mlcer from doing what he/she wants. You have to remember that your spouse is rebelling and doesn't want to be an adult in the true sense of the word at this time. He's returned back to where he was stunted emotionally, most likely by a parent or both parents. It could even be a teacher or another relative that has done this, but the validation and affirmation were not made available to them at that age.
By telling them how their ctions affect us and make us feel is also telling them what to do or not do. Keep in mind that when dealing w/an mlcer everything is going to be the opposite of what you would have done pre-crisis. If you tell them you don't like something, in their minds, it is perceived as them them not to do it. They hate authority and they hate people telling them what to do....why? Because it is called being responsible and respectful to others....they haven't grown up enough to understood this yet, but as they move along the mlc path, hopefully they will figure it out and be the person you once knew or even better.
The more you point things out to them that are distasteful to them, the more they are going to pull away. It's the push/pull game that we all play at the beginning until we learn to just leave them alone and give them plenty of space to work on themselves.
Just remember, the person you are looking at may be the correct physical body, the being inside isn't at this time. You are dealing with a young child/teenager who needs to find his/herself. It's difficult to visualize this, but it's the only way you'll be able to detach and allow them to figure things out.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
