Hi DM, just read your sitch and the first signs (W staying up late) etc were exactly what happened to me and similar sitch. My W has never admitted emotional affair but I am now sure it has been happening.
Re the wedding rings W took them off ages ago. I have kept mine on. I was gutted when she took them off. It's like her saying 'I mean it, we are done' and I know what you mean re 'standing up to her'.
I chose not to ask. But then yesterday she deleted our married status off her facebook page as well, which angered me even more.
Why would you remove the symbol of marriage without talking to me. What kind of signal is she sending.
She's telling you she's done and there's no hope for the M. My W did the same. The first time I noticed we were out to lunch and I asked when she quit wearing them and she said "oh, I had to wash my hands and just forgot to put them back on." That was around 2-1/2 months ago and they never went back on (but she's worn plenty of other rings). So if you ask, don't expect a straight answer. By the way, I'm not telling you there is no hope, I'm just telling you that's what her message is. There's always hope, even if the WAS doesn't think there is (they almost always don't).
Don't ask. "Act as If" it doesn't bother you at all, be happy in spite of whatever she throws at you.
Originally Posted By: DesperateMan
I feel like a wimp for not standing up and by asking the questions.
Actually, asking these questions and/or provoking arguments is easy. NOT asking and keeping the peace is hard.
Therefore, it's wimpy to ask, and NOT wimpy to "act as if", because the latter is much more difficult. It takes discipline to train yourself to ignore it.
Play it out:
DM: "Why did you stop wearing your ring?"
W: "Oh, I'm very sorry, that was silly of me, and I realize it was disrespectful to our marriage, I'll put them back on right away and you have my sincere apology"
Do you think that will happen?
DM: "Why did you stop wearing your ring?"
W: "Because I don't feel like a married person and I'm not happy staying in this marriage"
Do you think that will happen?
What happens then? You feel worse, and she feels worse for the fact that you "forced her" to tell you that.
Also, it's unlikely that you'll let her answer end the conversation, so you'll probably escalate and eventually get to scolding her about her attitude. Now she'll feel really angry and even more justified for taking her rings off.
There's no possible outcome where she admits that you are right and puts her rings back on. That simply will not happen, so play it through in your head, see where it leads, and don't even take the first step down the path.
One of the things that's hard for the LBS is that we cling to our old expectations of our marriages -- that our spouse is obliged to treat us with respect, to reciprocate what we contribute, to respect our feelings, to not treat us poorly, etc.
Unfortunately, at the point that your W said she wants out, all those expectations have to go out the window. You need to change your frame of reference to accept that right now she does not owe you anything, she resents you, and she is looking for you to support her decision to leave by continuing to do the things she doesn't like, to continue to make her feel badly, and to provoke her. You cannot expect her to consider your feelings right now. If you want to save your marriage and she does not, then you are in a "one-down" position, and cannot expect the same rights that would be afforded to an equal.
This means it's ON YOU, and on you alone, to deal with your feelings and to expect nothing from her. If she wants to take her rings off, she can. If she wants to ride around town naked on her bicycle, she can do that to. You can't control what she does, and she's not interested in your opinions concerning her actions.
Your goal is to 180 her complaints about you, get a life of your own separate from the marriage, and "act as if" everything is okay. That is your path to saving your marriage. Pursuing her, shaming her, provoking her, or making demands make her resent you more and push her farther away.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I understand the status of the marriage. I guess I want her to know that I noticed. Not just living with my head in the sand. I actually want to ask her to give me the ring back. If it is not important to wear it then give it back. What would the proper DB procedure. What would a DB coach recommend or a C?
No way. I understand that it hurts to see the ring off (and it hurts me every time I look at my H's naked hand as well) but you are trying to control her and whether she wears her ring. Leave her to her journey. The way you frame it seems like "I'm going to take my ball and go home." I know it's hard but try not to be petty or do things that force her hand. Leave her be. Let her find her own way.... As a W, it would totally anger me if my H asked for the ring back. I'd say, "WTF are you kidding me? It's my ring and I get to wear it or not. You don't have any say in that. Even if I don't wear it, it's still mine. Back off jack." So, to my mind, nothing good could come from you even talking about it. Pretend like it doesn't bother you on the outside. That is bound to get more interest from her than the other approach.
Unbidden thks for your reply. This whole detachment and not reacting is so hard. I realize it would cause more problems but damn hits hard. I want to just scream at her and wake her up. What are you thinking, why won't she talk to me about what she is thinking, we have always told each other everything but now nothing. DM
Yes, welcome to our world. I totally understand. My H has done the same thing and I think about trying to shake him and make him see all the bridges he's burning etc. but it would just push him further away. You just have to always try and keep in mind what your goal is. If it's to get your W back or have a shot at reconciliation, then don't do what's going to push her further away. If I keep this in mind, it's easier not to "throw the good china" so to speak.
Yes my goal is to reconcile the marriage. My fear with detachment and not saying anything is this might be one of her complaints about me. I always avoided conflict, sort of allowed things to roll off my back and not allow other people to get my wound up. I always thought this was a good trait but I worry that she may be looking at as wimpy for not standing up and fighting sort of speak. DM
DM, I understand what you're saying. You CAN stand up for yourself, but not in a way that tries to make her do or not do things. Read about "boundary setting", and I also recommend the book "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S.". You want to decide what is important to you -- how will you live your life, how will you allow yourself to be treated? Take it down to your core principles that you feel allow you to live with integrity.
If someone violates your boundaries, then you stand up for yourself. It takes some time to get your head around. If someone is yelling at you disrespectfully, saying "You can't talk like that!" is telling them what they can and cannot do. You can't enforce that, you can't control them. Saying "I will not be spoken to like that" is about what YOU will do, it's about what you will and will not tolerate. They can continue to rail and tantrum, but you're not going to stand there and listen to it, you're leaving. That's how it works, it has to be phrased in terms of what you will tolerate, and what you will not. How you will treat people, how you will treat yourself.
Now is not the time to pick fights with W, she wants space from you -- give it to her. As unbidden says, leave her to her journey. Unbidden gave you some great advice.
The typical example of this is a wife who complained that you didn't pay enough attention to her. Now, when you're the LBS, you think you should 180 that and start lavishing her with attention. Unfortunately, that's one complaint that you should NOT 180 right now. Instead, you need to demonstrate that you're capable of paying more attention to her by being more compassionate in general, spending more time with the kids, etc., but you can't do it with her because that is pursuing and pursuing makes a WAS run.
--Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
