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Breakdown, I didn't actually say that to him. I thought it though... I just looked at him. I know better than to say that!! Go back and re-read - I want to make sure that was clear.

Re: flirty/fun... H is just not in the mood for that right now. I think it would be seen as pursuing. One of the dynamics in our R is that he feels like he doesn't have enough control. He kind of needs to call the shots for a while.

Plus Acts of Service is one of my LL so I want to make sure he is appreciated for helping. I think with him it just has to be really black and white. He does not like game playing... I know, I'm making him sound like someone who isn't fun at all, and I think because of his insecurities, he's not able to really have fun and enjoy himself in a relationship, at least not ours. There is no teasing, no friendly competitiveness. Maybe we need to step up the fun aspect a little bit.

Oops, I read too fast....I see it now.

With regards to the flirty/fun thing, I know what you're saying. I was a lot like what you are describing. But who do you want to be? If that's not something you're comfortable doing, then don't. But if it is, then I'd just be who you are and enjoy yourself.

One question I was asked a lot that has helped...how did you behave when you were dating? Were you always so cautious about how he would react and what he'd think?

Honestly, our dating wasn't always so fun. We had our good times, of course, but there were a couple times when he seriously withdrew and it freaked me out. So yes, he has trained me to be cautious and sensitive to his reactions.

I would love to be more fun n flirty but I'm sensitive to that right now because he might think I'm doing that with other men too. Just one more reason that we need MC. When I've tried that in the past he has not liked it. Maybe he feels threatened. I am a brunette and when I was going through chemo I bought this long blonde wig for fun and he HATED it... he likes me how he likes me and that's it I guess.

We have to have a serious talk tonight about our finances. Things have really fallen apart since I stopped working. H also stopped putting his paycheck into our joint account so I lost control of the $ coming in and apparently he spent like a fiend. We both are going to have to be extremely disciplined and committed to fixing the situation if we want it to work. We'll have to agree on a plan and stick to it, and communicate regularly, holding each other accountable.

I wonder if this will be a practice run for working on our M. Perhaps if we can make this work there's hope after all. I do know that a D at this point would be disastrous from a financial perspective.

The talk went ok. He was tired and I know he's been feeling a little depressed lately. It's hard for me because I want to help him and he's very shut down. This is not a new dynamic for us; it's just worse now.

I'm not sure if all of this financial stress is going to make things harder or bring us closer. I suspect the former unfortunately. I still don't regret quitting my job because I was so unhappy there, but damn this situation is tough, and I'm only talking about the financial part of it.

Dear Regretful,

I will take heat for this, I know...but I've read your words more than once...and

I hesitate to say much b/c you are in dire financial straits and that does matter....

and you are trying to DB and so many people here seem to take your hs' side...

I hear your regret and I GET that. In fact I appreciate it.

But with all the LBSers telling you how it sukks to be your h, and how much TIME you must give him before he can treat you half decently

b/c God forbid we admit his behavior MIGHT have played a role in your choices,

I just urge you to not wear a hair shirt for your sins, for too long. He doesn't sound forgiving and if he's never going to get past it

(I am not saying he won't, I'm just saying IF IF IF, he won't)

then what the hell is all this for? To KNOW you did your best? Okay that's fine.

Do your duty so you know you did your best,

but don't keep laying prone on the floor for him to kick you when you are down. He kicks too much and too hard.

You are a worthy woman, you are a woman who deserves more than you had with him

and we can all hope you both heal.

But if he's out to torture you or never move on with this,

if he's going to hold this over your head like the sword of Damacles, forever,

then screw it.

Legally, You get to have the kids HALF time, regardless of the A's, so you won't have to ride in the "other" car again. (Unbelievably punitive of him!...)

I'm Sorry for confusing you, but I guess reading your thread just rubbed me the opposite of how it rubbed the others.

I see your h as so bitter and angry and vindictive RIGHT NOW-which might change, I know---

that it's hard for me to believe you two will survive this

I do not blame him for that, but I say it b/c I see it. You made some mistakes, so did he.

Can you stop wearing the hair shirt now? If not now, when?

IF there are signs he might work on things, of course I say, go for it.

But if not, at some point you must cut your losses and learn to be happy.

Thanks 25. I do appreciate the support.

Ugh. I don't know. The man needs to be given a chance and lately things have been better. He's been helping more around the house and with the kids, and did finally agree to a college try at MC (though now we have to find the $). We haven't talked about Retrouvaille but maybe he'll be open to it since it's a lot less expensive than MC.

You are right that he's bitter, angry and not especially forgiving - though I haven't seen too much of those traits in the last few weeks. We've been talking more and arguing less. At the moment there's not much reason to be cross with him. I almost added, "aside from the fact that he's not putting in any effort" but I think he actually is putting forth some effort. But he is a punisher for sure, and what's happening is that he's punishing himself at least as much as he's punishing me.

I have been wearing a hair shirt for 3 years around OM1. I want to say enough is enough but of course I can't. He was truly threatened by OM1 and I say he was right to feel that way. I know that sounds very callous and awful of me, but it is the truth: OM1 was a huge, real threat and I was the one who let that happen. We do have to get past it though, or I will never be able to survive another 40 or however many years with my H.

I also have my doubts about whether H is up to the task of really participating in fixing the M. Or whether it will work out regardless of anyone's desire to make it so. I see that it is possible to get to where I want to be with him, but I don't know how probable it is. We need some serious help. And a lot of getting where I want to be involves some changes he'd have to make, and we all know that we have no control over that.

Let's see how well we do with our budgeting exercise. I asked him to keep track of everything he spends for a week. Wonder if he will be able to do that.

LA, 25 makes some good points. I think you are acknowledging what led you to do what you did and are trying to change that no matter what happens.

Good luck with the budgeting. I know that is a sensitive area and can lead to some heated exchanges. I also hope that your H will go through with the MC.

LA, what concerns me in your posts is that you seem to continue to be tip toeing around. I realize you're scared, and to some extent, you've been trained to behave how you are, and maybe you are seeing baby steps so you're trying to go slow. But, I worry that you will slide back into the same old relationship. Be careful.

With regards to 25's comments, personally, I don't take your H's side, but I do believe you have to own your actions and really work thru why you made the choices you did, and how you can move past them and make better choices in the future (with answers that don't include "H"). I do believe you have had a profound effect on your H (especially given his issues), and you should be aware of that.

I believe that a stronger you may help your H start working on his own issues (which I believe are larger than yours honestly), but there is no guarantee. The same you, one who appears weak and allows herself to be controlled, will definitely result in the same pattern of behavior from both you and your H, which will likely result in OM3 and D.

I believe a stronger you is the only way your M can have a chance, but even more, a stronger you is the only way YOU can have a chance. If you don't get there and you D, you'll likely remarry someone with the same issues as your H, and the pattern will likely repeat, just with different players.

I think it's important that you stop being who you think your H wants you to be and start asking yourself, "who do I want to be?" Then start being that person!

You know, I am the type of woman who could be referred to as a "ball buster". I have been trying to soften those qualities somewhat as I doesn't really work in my M. My H doesn't have a strong enough ego to stand up to it, so he threatens and coerced and convinces until I back down, and I have let him do that to me, against my better judgement and to my detriment, time and time again. And yes, you are right, this pattern must be broken if we are to stay together.

I'll add more to this later. I can't organized thoughts at the moment. It's over 100 and I'm sitting outside.

I cannot stress the value of Retrovaille enough. Especially in your sitch.

IT's about starting fresh with forgiveness, learning HOW, and rebuilding trust on both sides.


It cannot harm the m, and some mc's can. I had and saw some miracles there so PLEASE get there...soon!

and pray both your hearts can soften.

The team couples there will inspire you.

Good luck!