AS, that's too bad b/c I think that's an unfortunate choice you made.
In our area, the US, there's an 82% "still married after 3 years of attending the weekend" rate.
And I do NOT think both have to be "committed".
Understood. But my wife is not one foot out the door. She is both feet out the door. She's gone, moved out. Based on what I've read, most couples attending Retrouvaille are still under the same roof. As long as a spouse remains at home, they may not admit it but they are still at least a little interested in reconciliation.
Most of the time things change substantially when a spouse leaves the house, they rewire their brain to convince themselves that they are 100% done and moving on. At that point time is all you can give them, if they start softening later then Retrouvaille is certainly an option. But my W isn't there yet, not even close.
THAT^^^ is a lot of mind reading going on...I think WASs often need the space to MISS their LBSers, see them in a new light and hopefully the LBS has actually changed. But if your version were accurate no one would reconcile after sep.
I don't mean to hijack Arsene's thread but if you know my story at all, my h and I were sep for 2 years, with visits in between.
After a year of piecing we began to backslide and I was more or less the WAS then b/c I had no reserves left...
so THEN we went to Retrovaille, (partly b/c it was ON our anniversary 2 weeks away, AND in our city, and that was so "coincidental" I felt that a message was there.
So "we" went but I had fairly low expectations. Fortunately those expectations were greatly exceeded.
So all I meant was that I went and didn't feel committed to the m when we attended. For me, It was more of a "well, I'll go b/c of the coincidental timing AND then I can check it off my list of 'I TRIED' items..."
which was silly b/c I already had tried. But lo and behold, we got a lot out of it and that gave me "Some" hope...Then the last day my h had a signficant and unexpected breakthrough that made a world of difference to me. Then I felt closer to him than I had in a decade.
So, there it is, or was.
But you know your sitch better than I do. I just want fewer people making "rules" for why someone should NOT go to Retrovaille - esp if they have not done it. I don't think the "reading" about it does it justice.
And I hope people won't attach conditions to others before going,
b/c I am not sure it's accurate or fair or helpful to attach those conditions. This is not an experimental program that "MIGHT HARM" the m. It just isn't. I have been to those risk taking things, and Retrovaille is at worst, a harmless weekend that will make you feel lucky not to have worse marital problems than you do (b/c the team couples WILL)
and you can part ways feeling like you cut your losses by being amicable and fair to each other, more respectful...to me that's the worst that can happen there
In our retreat weekend, at least a third of the couples had a spouse who "Knew" it was over,
and 3 of those 8 are now divorced and one is sep. That means half of the folks who were SURE it was over, are still married (4 years later)
and all the others who came b/c they feared their m's were ending, are still married. Not too shabby considering the conditions of our m's and the "too much water under the bridge" fears we all had.
Hey, IT's NOT a guarantee of anything and I'm SO SORRY you feel your wife is truly done. She may be, YOU know her more than I do. I merely want to say that Retrovaille, IMHO, gives the best shot in a Hail Mary situation, that I've seen.
Maybe we should not tell people that they won't or don't get to try a Hail Mary "unless 'x' and 'y' happen, you know? I saw some miracles and believe we got one too.
Other than this weekend program (and their follow up days, which are great)
There are personal growth workshops out there that are excellent (best one I did was "Essential Experience" which is mostly done in Philly)
but they are for INDIVIDUALS ----(couples CAN go, but the focus is aimed at each person doing THEIR OWN work),
and then they can grow and become better spouses or more committed to their families and jobs or whatever their issues are,
but Retrovaille is the only one I know of, that is for couples in real trouble.
End of hijack Arsene, sorry!! Sorry for your sitch AS, truly.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
No worries 25. It's actually good to see you re-iterate the point on the Retrouvaille program as it still is one of the things I hope to do at one point, whether it is because my W has reconsidered her stance or as a last ditch attempt before D.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Wife came by today after dropping off D8 at school. She was surprised I was up (I was surprised myself as I was hoping I could sleep in). It turned out that she had come to drop off the car (she managed to work something out and she didn't need it anymore after all)and since i was awake, we ended up having coffee together and a really nice chat.
We talked about spirituality, which is something we'd often talked about in the olden days. I tried to listen more than I talked and I think I was successful. I could tell she was enjoying herself and I felt quite good as well.
Without getting into too many details, one of the things we talked about is how relationships become co-dependent. How, when people meet they are often in a good place spiritually. In our case, we both were happy with our lives as they were, even if we were single. Suddenly, as people enter into a relationship, it becomes the focus and the only place to get our "feel good" points. The happiness we were able to get from ourselves (or God or nature) is now replaced by something given freely from the other person. The problem is, when the other person is going through tough times (or simply tired), and is unable to give for whatever reasons, we start demanding or expecting it as a due and that could easily become the beginning of the end of the relationship.
At one point, W said that if she had known that stuff back then we might not be going through this now. I really wanted to tell her that it wasn't too late, that we could still give it a go knowing all of this and learning more as we go. That we could move into the next step of our relationship better prepared to face any obstacles. I bit my lip and managed not to say anything that might be seen as pursuing. I simply acknowledged what she said.
We had such a great time that we didn't see time pass and before we knew it it was nearly time to pick up D8 so since W needed a lift back home, she decided to give me my 1st singing lesson while waiting to go pick up D8. It was actually nice and I learned a lot, and got many exercises. Most importantly, it was good times spent together, so little by little, I seem to be moving away from the negative feeling she had for me, towards some sort of a friendship with occasional reminiscing and more openness about her feelings.
She still seems like she is done but IMO, these are still baby steps from where we were a month ago and by the way, she again mentioned how much she had enjoyed our "family day" of last Sunday.
Now, I don't want to judge W as to what she does with D8 but I was a bit surprised to find out that they barely spent any time together on Friday. As it turns out, W picked D8 from here in the afternoon, before her French lessons. She dropped her off at the lessons and went to a photo shoot with her band. W picked up D8 late from the lesson (past 18:00 when the lessons end at 17:30) and during the evening, left D8 playing with a neighbour's kid while she went to the internet cafe. Later, they went to a meeting place downtown where W let D8 play outside with friends' kids while she was in a cafe with her friends. Eventually, D8 went to bed way passed her bed time (usually 20:00) on a school night.
I know that on my own, I'm struggling to be the father/parent I could be/was while with my W. It seems that since I've started working, I see D8 an hour in the morning, an hour at lunchtime and an hour or two before bed time. I try to make this time count. I try to focus on D8 when we are together but I still think I don't spend nearly enough time with D8 doing stuff but when I am with her, I AM there and we DO stuff TOGETHER. She really needs to know she is the most important thing in the world right now. I'm thankful I've got a maid to help out around the house and with D8 but I don't want D8 to be raised by the maid. She needs a parent but now, it's like I'm alone doing this. Maybe not. I don't know. Just venting a bit and trying not to judge W. I would never tell her how I feel about this anyway. Hopefully she'll figure this out for herself.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
At one point, W said that if she had known that stuff back then we might not be going through this now. I really wanted to tell her that it wasn't too late, that we could still give it a go knowing all of this and learning more as we go. That we could move into the next step of our relationship better prepared to face any obstacles. I bit my lip and managed not to say anything that might be seen as pursuing. I simply acknowledged what she said.
My feeling on this is that when you are getting along great like you were here, that's the perfect time to drop 'hints' of a future together... that's what she was doing! A short "with what we've learned we sure would make a great team" or such, and drop it, then gauge her response. I think this could easily be done without pressuring or pursuing when the moment is right. (which to me sounds like it was)
We don't want to pressure, but we don't have to wait forever for them to make a move either.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
You may be right FY, and if there were no other man by whom she was being dropped off at the airport this morning, and who seems to be such a big part of her life now, I might have.
If I had sensed at any time that she was reconsidering her position on our relationship, I surely would have. But the reality is that although she says many things which are encouraging, it always seems to me like sisterly concern. Like she's happy that I seem to be moving on.
She knows where I stand. I have told her on a few occasions when I got back to the country and since then, I have shown her nothing but a detached loving me for the last months (at least mostly).
But nonetheless, you may be right. It seems we're getting more and more of these talks lately. I don't want to get too excited too fast and scare her away. I'd like her to feel comfortable and keep on talking. At one point, the moment will be right.
Thanks for your opinion FY. I appreciate.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Wife came by today after dropping off D8 at school. She was surprised I was up (I was surprised myself as I was hoping I could sleep in). It turned out that she had come to drop off the car (she managed to work something out and she didn't need it anymore after all)and since i was awake, we ended up having coffee together and a really nice chat.
We talked about spirituality, which is something we'd often talked about in the olden days. I tried to listen more than I talked and I think I was successful. I could tell she was enjoying herself and I felt quite good as well.
Without getting into too many details, one of the things we talked about is how relationships become co-dependent. How, when people meet they are often in a good place spiritually. In our case, we both were happy with our lives as they were, even if we were single. Suddenly, as people enter into a relationship, it becomes the focus and the only place to get our "feel good" points. The happiness we were able to get from ourselves (or God or nature) is now replaced by something given freely from the other person. The problem is, when the other person is going through tough times (or simply tired), and is unable to give for whatever reasons, we start demanding or expecting it as a due and that could easily become the beginning of the end of the relationship.
At one point, W said that if she had known that stuff back then we might not be going through this now. I really wanted to tell her that it wasn't too late, that we could still give it a go knowing all of this and learning more as we go. That we could move into the next step of our relationship better prepared to face any obstacles. I bit my lip and managed not to say anything that might be seen as pursuing. I simply acknowledged what she said. Well done...seriously...
We had such a great time that we didn't see time pass and before we knew it it was nearly time to pick up D8 so since W needed a lift back home, she decided to give me my 1st singing lesson while waiting to go pick up D8. It was actually nice and I learned a lot, and got many exercises. Most importantly, it was good times spent together, so little by little, I seem to be moving away from the negative feeling she had for me, towards some sort of a friendship with occasional reminiscing and more openness about her feelings. good stuff^^^...
She still seems like she is done but IMO, these are still baby steps from where we were a month ago and by the way, she again mentioned how much she had enjoyed our "family day" of last Sunday. baby steps are all you can hope for at this point. And you have some. This has not been going on long.
Now, I don't want to judge W as to what she does with D8 but
As Bond (or Denver?) would say, "When you begin a sentence with a clause stating a goal, followed by the word, "BUT" you tend to negate exactly what you just said in the clause...which is exactly how this is.
You "don't want to judge what W does with D8"
"BUT", then you do just that. You judge her, again...
Stop with that. Seriously...you have no idea how many years your w spent with D8 while you were not around or if your only role was tutoring or judging or complaining or whatever. It's not a contest.
Lose the scorecard.
Being the best FATHER YOU CAN BE, is your work...not hers. But her mothering, is not your work, it's hers. IF & when you feel your d is threatened, then step in gently and smartly. Otherwise, don't judge b/c that's just what it is.
Maybe your w can say "all Arsene does is 'tutor' her", or that you are "controlling or critical or not fun", etc.... do you want to compete, or co-parent?
I was a bit surprised to find out that they barely spent any time together on Friday. As it turns out, W picked D8 from here in the afternoon, before her French lessons. She dropped her off at the lessons and went to a photo shoot with her band. W picked up D8 late from the lesson (past 18:00 when the lessons end at 17:30) and during the evening, left D8 playing with a neighbour's kid while she went to the internet cafe. Later, they went to a meeting place downtown where W let D8 play outside with friends' kids while she was in a cafe with her friends. Eventually, D8 went to bed way passed her bed time (usually 20:00) on a school night.
so your d got to play with other kids and stayed up late? Um, Geez...look,
it sounds as if you want your w's time to be spent JUST LIKE YOURS IS...but it doesn't work that way. And it IS controlling.
Usually the father plays the role your w is playing and the man plays the 'at home parent' that you are playing now, but they tend to balance out.
Did your d complain? If not, then back off. Your d sounds as if she can speak up for herself but if not, and IF it bothered her, then ask HER to tell your w how she felt.
I know that on my own, I'm struggling to be the father/parent I could be/was while with my W. Not sure what this^^^ means...
It seems that since I've started working, I see D8 an hour in the morning, an hour at lunchtime and an hour or two before bed time. I try to make this time count. I try to focus on D8 when we are together but I still think I don't spend nearly enough time with D8 doing stuff but when I am with her, I AM there and we DO stuff TOGETHER. She really needs to know she is the most important thing in the world right now.
correct. So do YOUR best to show her that she is the most important thing in the world, to YOU...and assure her of her mother's love as well. And drop the rest of this.
The r's between my h and our d's DID suffer. All I could/can do is help them heal it. I cannot judge it and I cannot keep harping on it, even if only internally. It does NOT HELP THE PMA...
now, my h has been deployed so he's gone again, although with a better reason. But he's still gone. They still miss him and feel in some ways, rejected or not chosen. My job is to reassure them that he so loves them and that he would kill or die for them and I believe that. I can give him ideas IF he asks, about activities with them. But I don't sit here and say "gee he's being a bad dad now" and I feel like that is pretty much where you are headed.
I'm thankful I've got a maid to help out around the house and with D8 but I don't want D8 to be raised by the maid. so, you think your w wants her raised by the maid? Seriously? I doubt your w has thought this out much. But if she is testing the waters at all, the LAST thing you should do is judge her or argue your case to her atm.
She needs a parent but now, it's like I'm alone doing this. Stop.
First off, you are NOT alone b/c your w is around! Second, Even if you were alone, you'd be among many here. Third, is ANY of this helping you with your PMA? Doesn't sound like it.
And If you were in another country, like the US, maybe SHE would be with your d and you'd be the one out at the boarding house.
She sees your d fairly often, at least every week, right? As lousy as that sounds to YOU, a lot of us have had it much worse. Weeks or months with NO contact at all...
My h left for 2 years with some random visits...let your w find her way. Keep the road home, paved and smooth. Don't harp.
Maybe not. I don't know. Just venting a bit and trying not to judge W. I would never tell her how I feel about this anyway. Hopefully she'll figure this out for herself.
you are venting but you are NOT "trying not to judge"...you are doing both.
Vent, but don't judge so much b/c it hurts your PMA
and distracts from your personal work, don't you think?
how are those connections with the natives going?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
You may be right FY, and if there were no other man by whom she was being dropped off at the airport this morning, and who seems to be such a big part of her life now, I might have.
If I had sensed at any time that she was reconsidering her position on our relationship, I surely would have. But the reality is that although she says many things which are encouraging, it always seems to me like sisterly concern. Like she's happy that I seem to be moving on.
She knows where I stand. I have told her on a few occasions when I got back to the country and since then, I have shown her nothing but a detached loving me for the last months (at least mostly).
But nonetheless, you may be right. It seems we're getting more and more of these talks lately. I don't want to get too excited too fast and scare her away. I'd like her to feel comfortable and keep on talking. At one point, the moment will be right.
Thanks for your opinion FY. I appreciate.
Yeah, that OM thing is pesky. Even so, you don't consider yourself to be in LRT mode do you? It sounds to me like things are quite a bit more comfortable than that. If this is the case, then it may be smart to try planting a seed here and there, especially when she seems to be receptive. You're not asking for or expecting her to "reconsidering her position on our relationship" only trying to sneak something under her radar that may get her thinking that a marriage with the 'new' you and her could be much better, which really isn't that far from what she was eluding to with her comment.
I believe Michelle says it's ok to try something, and if you see it doesn't work then back pedal as fast as you can, and you'll be ok. The only destructive thing is to keep doing what doesn't work. Basically you're only going to stick your toe in the water here. If it's too cold you pull it out quickly and do not return. If on the other hand, you find that it is slightly warm, then you slowly and carefully ease your foot in. I doubt you could have made things worse with a well timed low pressure comment in a situation like the one you posted above.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
I understand what you are saying FY and somehow it sounds very intuitive but I think that counter-intuitive is what is needed here. She is only just starting to open up so what I am doing seems to be working (by the way, this is LRT - W and I live apart and she has OM - I just don't feel like I'm in a position to impose/enforce boundaries at the moment). Now I need to be patient an let her come even closer, get even more comfortable before testing the water. Someone around here said something to the effect of "lifting the lid every two minutes to see if the turkey's done isn't making cook any faster, in fact, it's slowing it down". I'd have to agree with this.
You are right thought that things seem to be getting more comfortable and I hope that they keep up that way. I think I'll know/feel it when the time comes to check the water. For now, i told myself (and 25) that I would try not to worry about it for 90 days. I'm now a third of the way there.
Another issue I am considering is the fact that she is now in the capital city and that her two sisters are planning on talking to her about the situation. I can't help but being worried about the outcome of that discussion. So for now, I am playing it very safe.
25, I hear you about the judging (and the "but" thing) in fact as I was writing my update I just knew you would come out of the woodwork to let me have it. Don't worry. I'm not actually judging her. Just voicing thoughts which assail my mind on this site instead of to her and to myself. You are absolutely right on all points (except that I was never an absentee father).
Thank you both for your comments and continued support.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
I understand what you are saying FY and somehow it sounds very intuitive but I think that counter-intuitive is what is needed here. She is only just starting to open up so what I am doing seems to be working (by the way, this is LRT - W and I live apart and she has OM - I just don't feel like I'm in a position to impose/enforce boundaries at the moment). Now I need to be patient an let her come even closer, get even more comfortable before testing the water. Someone around here said something to the effect of "lifting the lid every two minutes to see if the turkey's done isn't making cook any faster, in fact, it's slowing it down". I'd have to agree with this.
You are right thought that things seem to be getting more comfortable and I hope that they keep up that way. I think I'll know/feel it when the time comes to check the water. For now, i told myself (and 25) that I would try not to worry about it for 90 days. I'm now a third of the way there. I believe your sitch has been going on for awhile but that you only recently began to DB, (which I'm mentioning for some backstory for FY).
THis is one of the first times your w seems to have relaxed a little and had fun and admitted it later. Then again, it was followed by no contact for 2 days, correct? So her being relaxed for a whole day, and recalling out loud to you later, is absolutely a positive. But it's a first...
To me it's clear she's not yet sure what to make of the comfort level increasing.
She may want to be more relaxed around you, and to me that's a goal of yours, right?
(= "to have w feel more relaxed around Arsene" and then, to build on it, NOT to act on it, but to build it...correct?)
...and your acting prematurely will push her back into believing it's all tactical to get her back...that you have an agenda. I think she'll withdraw and maybe not want to have as much contact with you. Remember, she probably does not want to be confused... I cannot see an advantage to pursuit this soon.
In a way, sure you do have an agenda. But what you are trying to show her, is first, that you are changing to become a better man, with the hopes of getting her back as a secondary goal.
So I strongly advise you to follow her lead - you can chime in some positives and some comments about "people can change" if you feel it's not going to be awkward. But your main goal is to demonstrate that your changes are real and lasting. Cement that before hoping for a return on it. Make sense?
Don't find fault with her and Don't challenge her choices, or you'll force her to defend them. If she says something that might be positive but you are not sure, just listen. "Gather intel" as they say in the diplomatic corps...
and keep being a great happy loving father...
Another issue I am considering is the fact that she is now in the capital city and that her two sisters are planning on talking to her about the situation. I can't help but being worried about the outcome of that discussion. So for now, I am playing it very safe.
I get that^^^. It's another thing you must let go of. You have no control over what her family says to her. What if they call you a purple lesbian from the moon...does that truly affect how you see yourself?
I know it doesn't. But you have to realize that their information about you is either inaccurate, in which case it cannot affect you b/c it's not true, OR it's out of date and since you are no longer that "old Arsene", that data is not real either and therefore cannot matter to you...or they'll be totally accurate and fair to you and if that happens, the smart thing to do is NOT appear at all involved or invested so that she can have the space to look around at her choices and wonder if maybe she might need to re-think them.
The only thing her sisters need to know is that YOU are a different man, NOT that she is "wrong"...b/c that's not going to get her back. What might get her back is if she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.
Don't forget that.
As for the "but" and the judging, hey I am not going to rip you a new one or bemoan how much your w could judge your past behaviors, b/c when you step back, you know that is true.
I just want to steer you in a different direction if it feels natural to you OR IF you want it to...
maybe if you spend time affirming yourself, promoting your personal goals and not spending any energy on what you perceive her flaws to be, as she makes her way on her journey
then you can actualize more of your personal goals. I believe the changes you want to make are profound and take practice, thought, energy and time.
The more you let yourself get distracted by what you believe are her flaws, the more you let the "old" Arsene stop you from finding the new man...AND the longer it takes for you to get where you want to go.
25, I hear you about the judging (and the "but" thing) in fact as I was writing my update I just knew you would come out of the woodwork to let me have it. Don't worry. I'm not actually judging her. Just voicing thoughts which assail my mind on this site instead of to her and to myself. You are absolutely right on all points (except that I was never an absentee father).
Thank you both for your comments and continued support.
I have hopes for you Arsene. But whereas Fy thinks you ought to pursue her or send out some probes, and I fear that will scare her off...
you CAN GAL a lot more. Create that mystery some more,
and let the idea grow in her that the possibility of you not always being around for her, exists...you may become the man she always hoped you were, only to be some other woman's h...
most women would be bothered by that^^...you can't say it to her out loud of course. But you can be mysterious and let her know that you are aware of other women, you know they exist and you are not solely waiting for her and waiting and waiting...
So, GAL and Involve more new people and get into it. Sign up for a class (you are doing toastmaster's, right? Cool) or a seminar or an activity that is cheap or work related but in a new way with different people. I definitely think meeting others is key.
how about a church group (I know you do meditation but that seems sort of quiet as a GAL thing, if you catch my drift. Do you guys hang out after the meditation or is it not that kind?) Point is, to show a spiritual side to you and that's important to you and to your w
and it's a way to undermine her negative justifications for wanting out....the more you counter her negative data, with positive data, the better...
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
and let the idea grow in her that the possibility of you not always being around for her, exists...you may become the man she always hoped you were, only to be some other woman's h...
How do you reconcile this with the fact that like mine, A's wife WANTS him to move on and probably would even be quite happy to know he is opening himself to the option of finding a new partner?
Originally Posted By: Arsene
...it always seems to me like sisterly concern. Like she's happy that I seem to be moving on.
Right. What do think she would feel or do at this point when she caught wind of this new 'mystery'?
25, you obviously have much more experience with how this has played out in dozens or even hundreds of situations. Please give us your take.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
